Afghanistan

[Jayand]

Here we are nearly nine years after the "Liberation" of Afghanistan and what exactly have we achieved? opium production is higher than ever (no pun) home grown terror is greater than at any other time and the taliban seem just as strong.
When we eventually leave under the banner of success, hailing the job complete and handing over to a "credible" Afghan security force will we really be able to say all the lives lost were worth it?
It's going to take a lot more than a few million from Tony's book to put this one right!

[Jabba_TG12]

Follow the money

.....and who benefits from it? Follow the money trail. Imagine how many "jobs" are sustained by the war on drugs, the war on terror, imagine how many people/vested interests have got phenomenally rich over the last decade...

I'm not one for the tinfoil hat brigade, but... theres so much more to this than the governments involved will ever want the likes of you and I to find out about.

[walter kennedy]

The Taliban had stopped opium production for enough time to cause a heroin drought felt worldwide and achieved more than any western government initiative in terms of driving users to weaning off treatments like methadone – now it's more than ever as they have not developed their oil and gas resources for their own development and the central govt does little for the rural population – so factor that social cost into the cost of the war.
Also the Taliban had almost eliminated rape in the areas they controlled, a shocking statistic now as before the Taliban – OK the women couldn't dress like tarts and play the field but factor that social cost into the cost of the war.
Particularly Iraq but also Afghanistan: defeating a standing army/force and replacing central government (very quick in case of Iraq and Sergio di Mello, the UN good guy, wanted the US to withdraw then, before he was killed in his office in an area secured by the Americans) would not have had the effect of grinding the infrastructure and will of the people into the dirt as has happened with this extended occupation – nor would it have allowed the opportunity of liquidating potential leaders that has undoubtedly been going on – nor would it have sickened the populace from tolerating any further sabre rattling against any external foe. Thus the long operation has been totally successful at neutralising two potential enemies of any pro western country in the region – there is one – hope it appreciates our efforts and sacrifice.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

The whole thing has been one sorry mess from @rsehole to breakfast time.
When we leave, which we soon will, (again) the place will soon be back to the way it was before we started.

A complete and utter waste of time, money, lives and credibility.

[larssnowpharter]

A complete and utter waste of time, money, lives and credibility.

My view exactly.

Hats off to the guys and gals out there trying to do a very difficult job.

However, you have to ask yourself the very simple question:

'If we were not there, what would be the difference?'

[soddim]

We have achieved but it is a negative. We are now even more hated by the radical Muslims and consequently a more likely target for terrorism - exactly the opposite of the governments publicised reason for our involvement.

[Saintsman]

Here we are nearly nine years after the "Liberation" of Afghanistan and what exactly have we achieved?

Our streets are safe from terrorists.

Apparently.

[minigundiplomat]

On the plus side, the defence industry has made a mint from UOR's.

[vecvechookattack]

I suppose that since July 2005 we have only had 2 terrorist in the UK (Glasgow and Exeter) both of which were classified as minor. So you could argue that our streets are pretty safe from International Terrorism

[Two's in]

I suppose that since July 2005 we have only had 2 terrorist in the UK (Glasgow and Exeter) both of which were classified as minor. So you could argue that our streets are pretty safe from International Terrorism

But here's a thought. Is that because instead of going to all the trouble of buying airline tickets, learning how to blend with Westerners and buy bomb making material in a foreign country, now all they have to do is pop outside the village hut, plant an IED or set up a sniper ambush, suppress the forces of imperialist aggression until they get bored, and be home in time for tea and heroin? No travel required, no risk of getting caught in a dreadful place like Glasgow Airport, we just line the targets up right on the door step for them.

We all scoffed at the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the years of getting picked off by the Mujahadeen, the mutual tit-for-tat atrocities and the final humiliating withdrawal. In 20 years time I would love to see how a description of our latest foray into Afghanistan looks any different to that of the Soviets, especially in terms of achieving any kind of Military Objectives.

The only thing we will be able to gain any kind of satisfaction from will be looking back at the sheer professionalism and dedication of the young (and not so young) Service men and women who selflessly and without question serve their country, with many of them paying the ultimate price or becoming severely injured.

[Jayand]

The mercifully few terrorist attacks we have suffered in the last few years are little if anything to do with our military endeavours in Afghanistan!
Homeland security (american term I now) and heightened awarness from public are the reason we have foiled and prevented there being many more attacks.
Our presence in Afghanistan and formerly Iraq along with our general foreign policy has made us more, not less of a target.
2012 olympics, guaranteed biggest target for terrorism in a very long time.

[Load Toad]

I suppose that since July 2005 we have only had 2 terrorist in the UK (Glasgow and Exeter) both of which were classified as minor. So you could argue that our streets are pretty safe from International Terrorism

Well we had a few years of the IRA doing their thing and that was more or less put to bed by the peace initiatives. How many extremist-Muslim terrorist attacks did the UK have before we got involved in the wars in the Middle East?

I could understand wanting to go into Afghanistan and looking at security options in Pakistan...to find the Taliban and Osama and his cronies but I can't see what benefit we are having now whilst we stay there that will last 5 minutes once we've left (which we will though more of our forces will die & money will be spent before that happens).

Iraq was a terrible mistake based on war mongering and lies. I think there were other ways and means to marginalise and remove Madass Insane.

[Thelma Viaduct]

"The whole thing has been one sorry mess from @rsehole to breakfast time.
When we leave, which we soon will, (again) the place will soon be back to the way it was before we started.

A complete and utter waste of time, money, lives and credibility."

This

Anyone with a couple of brain cells to rub together could see the consequences a mile off.

Those responsible should be locked up, or hung by the neck until dead in the case of blair, straw etc and that rat of a 'sin doctor' campbell he employed.

[Thelma Viaduct]

"The mercifully few terrorist attacks we have suffered in the last few years are little if anything to do with our military endeavours in Afghanistan!
Homeland security (american term I now) and heightened awarness from public are the reason we have foiled and prevented there being many more attacks.
Our presence in Afghanistan and formerly Iraq along with our general foreign policy has made us more, not less of a target.
2012 olympics, guaranteed biggest target for terrorism in a very long time."



Totally agree 100%, this is the truth of the situation, not what corrupt politicians tell us.

[Compressorstall]

It's good to see the fundamental misunderstandings about the Afghanistan Campaign which have dogged and inhibited the military response. It started with Rumsfeld who wanted to showboat the fact that he felt small, light forces could do so much if backed by airpower. It is only recently that we have come to terms with the fact that dictating force levels through available budget screws us over. That was the case in 2006 when the British deployed to Helmand where manpower caps meant that a muddled mission was never going to be enacted, and instead we had some of our finest troops fighting for their lives on a daily basis. Only slowly did our Government come to terms with the fact that if you want to take and hold ground, you need enough troops who are suiatbly equipped and supported for the task. War costs a lot of money and it is oone thing for PMs to feel a surge in their trousers when they send us on our way to war, but it is another thing entirely for them to come to terms with the cost of it. The Americans cottoned on quicker while we still made out Budget Managers more powerful than the combatant commanders.
To out it simply, if you're going to do war, do it properly. As a nation we have become so used to cuffing it and doing things on the cheap it's amazing that our troops aren't patrolling in second-hand pimped up Corsas.
It's all too easy to say that we could see the writing on the wall, but instead we are victims of having accountants instead of leaders.

[Thelma Viaduct]

"It's all too easy to say that we could see the writing on the wall"

No not really, to say it even 12 months ago on here often brought the wrath of those serving and others, even though it's blindingly obvious their efforts are for nothing but a waste of young lives and ruining the lives of their friends & families

So to cap, it's too easy for people to say "it's too easy to say 20/20 hindsight isn't on etc" or any other apologist crap.

People need to be made accountable and punished to reduce the chances of it happening again, 20/20 hindsight doesn't even come in to it. You could see the sh1t storm before the event, not just after.

Help for Heroes is another insult people don't seem to be able to see through either. British troops shouldn't need a tabloid scum sponsored charity to help them out, the cnuts who sent them to fight wars based on lies should provide for their needs & more.

[soddim]

You write much sense Pious Pilot but, unfortunately, our system does not recognise failure or make corrections to prevent recurrence. Instead, the lead players write their memoirs and make a packet to add to the salary they were given by the taxpayer whilst screwing up.

I wonder if the military chiefs are also partly to blame for not advising the politicians in no uncertain terms prior to the committment to war. It might be the case that our senior officers see the prospect of furthering their individual service claim on the budget by getting to do something useful.

There is surely a case for an independent consideration of the proposed action before we commit our forces to future conflict.

[Compressorstall]

Pious and Soddim - you both speak much sense. Budgeteers are not leaders, Nor are those who say what the politicos want to hear. If we had been given a clear mission in 2006 and if someone had said that it would be a long hard war that required many thousands of combat forces, we would be in a much better position to deliver. However, much has been squandered, but that isn't to say that dignity cannot be regained.

[minigundiplomat]

I love how the ANC forces smoke hashish during the battle and then shoot their ammo at absolutely nothing.

What are the African National Congress doing out there? Unless the ANA/ANP have changed their name?

They could have - rebranding is what we normally do with failing organisations. 'New Labour', possibly about to become 'I can't believe it's not Labour', as an example.

[Jayand]

Compressor stall it's not about how much money we have spent or how many troops we committed, the whole bloody thing is/always has been unachievable and unwinnable, the yanks the russians before that and ourselves before that have all shown that this is a country and people that you can not tame/beat, in fact it isn't really even a country but simply a land mass with borders defined only on a map by others.

Pious would you care to elaborate on your "Absolute bo11ocks"
How has our blood, sweat and money in the sand and dust made us any safer?