F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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Spaz,
More Lockheed-Martin/DoD propaganda.
Maybe they should have moved the exercise to Jacksonville, Florida where the weather would have been not so brutal and slightly warmer.
FYI,
The March weather at Patuxent River, Geez!
Weather History for Patuxent River, MD | Weather Underground
F-35B Ski Jump Trials NAS Patuxent River 2015
Maybe they should have moved the exercise to Jacksonville, Florida where the weather would have been not so brutal and slightly warmer.
FYI,
The March weather at Patuxent River, Geez!
Weather History for Patuxent River, MD | Weather Underground
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The truth is coming out, Group Captain Ian Townsend opens up and said "The F-35 is not a multi-role fighter."
To try and get it ready for 2018, they have to do "developmental test flying, operational test flying and frontline flying all at the same time"
When in the simulator, Townsend felt flooded by the stuff "In fact, I asked for the simulator to be stopped because I was taken aback by the information being displayed to me"
Shaping a New Combat Capability for 21st Century Operations: The Coming of the F-35B to the New British Carrier | SLDInfo
To try and get it ready for 2018, they have to do "developmental test flying, operational test flying and frontline flying all at the same time"
When in the simulator, Townsend felt flooded by the stuff "In fact, I asked for the simulator to be stopped because I was taken aback by the information being displayed to me"
Shaping a New Combat Capability for 21st Century Operations: The Coming of the F-35B to the New British Carrier | SLDInfo
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F-35 Wet Runway Testing Edwards AFB [SRVL Relevant?]
Salty Dogs & Funky Jets Oct 2015 Mark Ayton
"...Wet Runway Testing
It’s strange that wet runway testing must be conducted at Edwards Air Force Base in the Mojave Desert. Annual rainfall on America’s east coast requires runways to drain away quickly and does not provide sufficient time to conduct wet runway tests.
The main Edwards runway is ideal for wet runway tests. It has a flat section that allows a sheet of water an eighth of an inch thick and a layer of AFFF (aqueous film forming foam, which is used for fire fighting) to be laid down. This gives a window of about five minutes when the runway is wet enough to meet the runway condition rating (RCR) criteria.
The pilot runs the aircraft up to the wet section at which point he applies moderate braking. Cdr Ted Dyckman explained: “That represents 60% peddle deflections while tracking down the runway to see how it stops to determine anti-skid performance. We have directional control points that indicate where the pilot enters the wet section and corrects back to centre line from an off set of 20 feet.
“We conduct two verification flying points. First we fly and land in the wet section to make sure there are no directional control issues. The F-35A and the F-35C each use similar types of main tyres but the F-35C’s double nosewheel configuration gives slightly better tracking performance than its single-wheel stablemates. The team conducted wet runway tests with normal field service tyres and carrier surface tyres. The latter simulates catapult launches and arrested landings back on the ship.
To prevent carrier surface tyres from rolling on the deck because of the side forces applied they are inflated to a higher pressure which makes them track well but hydroplane. They also take further to stop because the tyre’s surface area in contact with the deck is reduced by the higher pressure. The field service tyres also tracked well and stopped in the same distance.
Test points were conducted at 60, 90, 110 and 130 knots using wet sections measuring 2,500, 3,000, 4,000 and about 6,000 feet respectively. As soon as the RCR meets the test point (measured by an instrumented truck tracking down the side of the section to avoid the painted centre line which would give a very inaccurate value) criteria, the pilot runs down the wet section replicating a landing run, conducts the braking test and clears the area. The truck remeasures the RCR value and records the time between the two for an average figure. During the directional test, when the main tyres run over the centre line, the aircraft skids slightly because of the effect of reduced friction on the paint. The test team completed the trials in mid-April."
Air International OCTOBER 2015 Vol.89 No.4
"...Wet Runway Testing
It’s strange that wet runway testing must be conducted at Edwards Air Force Base in the Mojave Desert. Annual rainfall on America’s east coast requires runways to drain away quickly and does not provide sufficient time to conduct wet runway tests.
The main Edwards runway is ideal for wet runway tests. It has a flat section that allows a sheet of water an eighth of an inch thick and a layer of AFFF (aqueous film forming foam, which is used for fire fighting) to be laid down. This gives a window of about five minutes when the runway is wet enough to meet the runway condition rating (RCR) criteria.
The pilot runs the aircraft up to the wet section at which point he applies moderate braking. Cdr Ted Dyckman explained: “That represents 60% peddle deflections while tracking down the runway to see how it stops to determine anti-skid performance. We have directional control points that indicate where the pilot enters the wet section and corrects back to centre line from an off set of 20 feet.
“We conduct two verification flying points. First we fly and land in the wet section to make sure there are no directional control issues. The F-35A and the F-35C each use similar types of main tyres but the F-35C’s double nosewheel configuration gives slightly better tracking performance than its single-wheel stablemates. The team conducted wet runway tests with normal field service tyres and carrier surface tyres. The latter simulates catapult launches and arrested landings back on the ship.
To prevent carrier surface tyres from rolling on the deck because of the side forces applied they are inflated to a higher pressure which makes them track well but hydroplane. They also take further to stop because the tyre’s surface area in contact with the deck is reduced by the higher pressure. The field service tyres also tracked well and stopped in the same distance.
Test points were conducted at 60, 90, 110 and 130 knots using wet sections measuring 2,500, 3,000, 4,000 and about 6,000 feet respectively. As soon as the RCR meets the test point (measured by an instrumented truck tracking down the side of the section to avoid the painted centre line which would give a very inaccurate value) criteria, the pilot runs down the wet section replicating a landing run, conducts the braking test and clears the area. The truck remeasures the RCR value and records the time between the two for an average figure. During the directional test, when the main tyres run over the centre line, the aircraft skids slightly because of the effect of reduced friction on the paint. The test team completed the trials in mid-April."
Air International OCTOBER 2015 Vol.89 No.4
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a1bill - your selective quoting does yourself & the good Group Captain a disservice.
"Multi-role, in current thinking, would be a sequential series of tasks.
The F-35 is doing a number of missions simultaneously.
The concept of mission simultaneity is really important.
The airplane has the ability to do things without the pilot asking it to do it.
Automatically conducting, particularly, ISR whilst it’s conducting an OCA mission or an attack mission in a very different way than platforms have done business in the past.
That the F-35 operator won’t be going through sequential thought process.
He will be thinking about the battle space in a broader sense, a much different way than a Typhoon operator would be thinking about the battle space."
"Multi-role, in current thinking, would be a sequential series of tasks.
The F-35 is doing a number of missions simultaneously.
The concept of mission simultaneity is really important.
The airplane has the ability to do things without the pilot asking it to do it.
Automatically conducting, particularly, ISR whilst it’s conducting an OCA mission or an attack mission in a very different way than platforms have done business in the past.
That the F-35 operator won’t be going through sequential thought process.
He will be thinking about the battle space in a broader sense, a much different way than a Typhoon operator would be thinking about the battle space."
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A pilot in the 115-125lb range which is quite easy for some of our shorter women would have a very hard time doing the high strength, high reps, cardio training necessary for the M1 and other G-runt maneuvers designed to clench neck, trunk and thigh muscles to keep blood in the upper torso.
Since the seat slams you hard enough, even without the woolie cushion that most pilots use, to make 3 ejections (for a 160lb, weight trained, male) a fighter flight qualification ender, the weight of flight gear means likely nothing because body mass is an indication of muscle and bone density to which kit adds nothing but more topical bruising to if you ever have to leave the jet in a hurry.
Bluntly, a small woman could come out of this crippled or with chronic health issues and nobody will do anything about it because...diversity is more important than economic or capability driven metrics.
One does wonder how they managed to reach this astonishing bit of obviousness, given that instrumented dummies have likely been riding the rails since the mid-90s (the Mk.16 is also on the Eurofighter and Rafale for instance).
What is more ominous is that the F-35B, like the Yak-38, has an automatic mode to clear the pilot without any chance to 'assume the position' because if the SDLF goes pair shaped there will not be time to save the biologic stick shaker, if dependent upon 'quick as a cat' fighter pilot reflexes.
Since this is precisely the point where you can expect to find a lot of ejections, you have essentially doubled the injury risk from that alone, even in much higher weight range male pilots.
Since the seat slams you hard enough, even without the woolie cushion that most pilots use, to make 3 ejections (for a 160lb, weight trained, male) a fighter flight qualification ender, the weight of flight gear means likely nothing because body mass is an indication of muscle and bone density to which kit adds nothing but more topical bruising to if you ever have to leave the jet in a hurry.
Bluntly, a small woman could come out of this crippled or with chronic health issues and nobody will do anything about it because...diversity is more important than economic or capability driven metrics.
One does wonder how they managed to reach this astonishing bit of obviousness, given that instrumented dummies have likely been riding the rails since the mid-90s (the Mk.16 is also on the Eurofighter and Rafale for instance).
What is more ominous is that the F-35B, like the Yak-38, has an automatic mode to clear the pilot without any chance to 'assume the position' because if the SDLF goes pair shaped there will not be time to save the biologic stick shaker, if dependent upon 'quick as a cat' fighter pilot reflexes.
Since this is precisely the point where you can expect to find a lot of ejections, you have essentially doubled the injury risk from that alone, even in much higher weight range male pilots.
Originally Posted by a1bill
Shaping a New Combat Capability for 21st Century Operations: The Coming of the F-35B to the New British Carrier | SLDInfo
Group Captain Townsend: As an airman, I like anything that enhances my ability to deliver air power, and the ship certainly does that. The ship has been tailor-made from first principles to deliver F-35 operational output.
The ship is part of the F35 air system. I think this is the key change to where we were in Joint Force Harrier where the ship was really just a delivery vehicle. The ship was just a runway.
The Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers are much more than that.
The ship is part of the F35 air system. I think this is the key change to where we were in Joint Force Harrier where the ship was really just a delivery vehicle. The ship was just a runway.
The Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers are much more than that.
Everyone who talks to SLDInfo sounds the same. I swear that those guys could interview Kate Upton and she'd end up talking about renorming operations in the Z-axis battlespace.
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He will be thinking about the battle space in a broader sense, a much different way than a Typhoon operator would be thinking about the battle space."
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2805662, I see you are new here. Like Axe, Sweetman and co. Some posters here like to twist the quotes and facts, to try and paint the F-35 is a dark light. I was getting into the spirit of the thread. It will become obvious who the players are ^ 
I hope you found the link worthwhile. I saw value in in it, to post it.
I hope you found the link worthwhile. I saw value in in it, to post it.
"...He will be thinking about the battle space in a broader sense, a much different way than a Typhoon operator would be thinking about the battle space."
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further to your point FODplod
Group Captain Townsend: I think this plays very much into the concpet that ‘Aegis is my wingman’.
I think from a U.K. perspective, Type 45 is my wingman.
The importance there is that the F-35 pilot for the U.K. or for any of F-35 operator, the information he has available to him allows him to make decisions for other operators in the battle space. And that is not simply other operators meaning other airplanes; that is, other operators being air, land, or maritime platforms.
The ability for the F-35 pilot to control the battle space in its entirety means that people operating in the surface fleet, for example, need to understand what the F-35 can achieve.
Because if they don’t, they don’t know what the F-35 pilot is going to ask them to do when they ask them to do it.
So they have to instinctively understand the capability of the airplane, because every, every platform involved in the battle space now is part of what the F-35 air system can deliver in terms of operational effect.
I think from a U.K. perspective, Type 45 is my wingman.
The importance there is that the F-35 pilot for the U.K. or for any of F-35 operator, the information he has available to him allows him to make decisions for other operators in the battle space. And that is not simply other operators meaning other airplanes; that is, other operators being air, land, or maritime platforms.
The ability for the F-35 pilot to control the battle space in its entirety means that people operating in the surface fleet, for example, need to understand what the F-35 can achieve.
Because if they don’t, they don’t know what the F-35 pilot is going to ask them to do when they ask them to do it.
So they have to instinctively understand the capability of the airplane, because every, every platform involved in the battle space now is part of what the F-35 air system can deliver in terms of operational effect.
Glaar: What is more ominous is that the F-35B, like the Yak-38, has an automatic mode to clear the pilot without any chance to 'assume the position' because if the SDLF goes pair shaped there will not be time to save the biologic stick shaker, if dependent upon 'quick as a cat' fighter pilot reflexes.
This site indicates 18 automatic out of 31 ejections for the Yak.
Civilian test pilot
Last edited by sandiego89; 28th Sep 2015 at 13:59.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The ship is part of the F35 air system. I think this is the key change to where we were in Joint Force Harrier where the ship was really just a delivery vehicle. The ship was just a runway.
The Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers are much more than that.
To my mind, nothing illustrates the dichotomy between RN and RAF doctrine better than these statements. The RN has always viewed embarked RW and FW aircraft as integrated components of a warship's weapons system, like its guns, missiles (including land-attack), torpedoes, CIS, EW, on board and off board sensors, etc.
The Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers are much more than that.
To my mind, nothing illustrates the dichotomy between RN and RAF doctrine better than these statements. The RN has always viewed embarked RW and FW aircraft as integrated components of a warship's weapons system, like its guns, missiles (including land-attack), torpedoes, CIS, EW, on board and off board sensors, etc.
Date: 6 July 2000
Witnesses: Sir Robert Walmesley (CDP) and Vice Admiral Sir Jeremy Blackham (first Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (Equipment Capability).
The Future Carrier and the Future Carrier Borne Aircraft
.......A carrier is not a complicated ship, it is basically a big box with a big hangar inside it and a flat deck and a sufficient degree of command and control arrangements to enable the ship to communicate, as it has to. It is not going to have lots of other weapons. It is not full of systems like a destroyer that is stuffed full of the most complicated electronics, etc.. When you go on board a carrier it is basically empty, it is just a box. What is complicated is the aeroplane. I do not want to allow us to create an impression in your minds that the construction of the ship is an immense technological achievement.....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
A pilot in the 115-125lb range which is quite easy for some of our shorter women would have a very hard time doing the high strength, high reps, cardio training necessary for the M1 and other G-runt maneuvers designed to clench neck, trunk and thigh muscles to keep blood in the upper torso.........
Bluntly, a small woman could come out of this crippled or with chronic health issues and nobody will do anything about it because...diversity is more important than economic or capability driven metrics.
Bluntly, a small woman could come out of this crippled or with chronic health issues and nobody will do anything about it because...diversity is more important than economic or capability driven metrics.
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First Female F-35 test Pilot: First female F-35 pilot completes initial flight
Having lost a friend and colleague in an ejection, the difference between survival and not can be fractions of a second and frankly the auto eject is a good feature which will save lives. Discussion surrounding better to be dead than disabled can take place elsewhere...
Turbine D - Let people read the article and they'll find that your 'quotes' give a very misleading impression of what Grp Capt Townsend was saying. Also as Jackonsville doesn't have a ramp there is little value in testing the jet there. Weather in Pax in March can be lovely, just not this year.
That said, I disagree with some of the Grp Capts comments about the relevance of the ship to the aircraft, in a similar vein to FODPlod. The point about the mission to Afghan in 2005 misses the role of the CVS and it's fighter controllers in Air Defence, but then that gap was still filled with Sea Harrier, AMRAAM and Blue Vixen in 2005 so he didn't need to worry about it!
As for the comments regarding what an aircraft carrier is, made in Parliament quoted by ORAC, I would suggest that that is the language used when trying to convince politicians that building brand new carriers is easy. The truth is somewhat different as we have discovered in the past 15 years!
Spaz - F-35B wet runway testing was done a couple of years ago, at Edwards, to a very tight spec that could only be done on the special runway section as discussed in the article. There's photos and articles out there on the internet, if they're not already on a page here somewhere.
Having lost a friend and colleague in an ejection, the difference between survival and not can be fractions of a second and frankly the auto eject is a good feature which will save lives. Discussion surrounding better to be dead than disabled can take place elsewhere...
Turbine D - Let people read the article and they'll find that your 'quotes' give a very misleading impression of what Grp Capt Townsend was saying. Also as Jackonsville doesn't have a ramp there is little value in testing the jet there. Weather in Pax in March can be lovely, just not this year.
That said, I disagree with some of the Grp Capts comments about the relevance of the ship to the aircraft, in a similar vein to FODPlod. The point about the mission to Afghan in 2005 misses the role of the CVS and it's fighter controllers in Air Defence, but then that gap was still filled with Sea Harrier, AMRAAM and Blue Vixen in 2005 so he didn't need to worry about it!
As for the comments regarding what an aircraft carrier is, made in Parliament quoted by ORAC, I would suggest that that is the language used when trying to convince politicians that building brand new carriers is easy. The truth is somewhat different as we have discovered in the past 15 years!
Spaz - F-35B wet runway testing was done a couple of years ago, at Edwards, to a very tight spec that could only be done on the special runway section as discussed in the article. There's photos and articles out there on the internet, if they're not already on a page here somewhere.
Last edited by WhiteOvies; 28th Sep 2015 at 15:11. Reason: More info.
@ORAC:
Yep, but only when trying to convince members of the influential Defence Committee in 2000 that the two QE Class carriers were simply floating boxes made with steel plate bought from Corus at £65 million plus a few extra quid (ultimately £6 billion) for some metal origami. It was also necessary to correct any mistaken belief that a linear correlation existed between their necessarily large size and any significant extra cost.
P.S. Did you know the three CVS were simply through-deck cruisers carrying some ASW helos?
...A carrier is not a complicated ship, it is basically a big box...
P.S. Did you know the three CVS were simply through-deck cruisers carrying some ASW helos?
ORAC re your #7714, context is everything and in 2000 the RN were desperately trying to convince the Treasury that the Carriers were "just" boxes and that steel and air was cheap.
The concept at that time was that the Carriers were just floating runways and that the combat power was in the aircraft and in the Type 45 which would supply the C2.
However, the concept reverted to "normal" when the carriers were ordered ie the C2 was to be invested in the carriers themselves (one of the reasons why the project became so expensive), and partly because we ordered so few Type 45s that we could not guarantee that one would always be with the Carrier.
"Normal" in the context of RN aviation ops is, as observed by others, that the air group and the platform is, together, an integrated weapons system.
The concept at that time was that the Carriers were just floating runways and that the combat power was in the aircraft and in the Type 45 which would supply the C2.
However, the concept reverted to "normal" when the carriers were ordered ie the C2 was to be invested in the carriers themselves (one of the reasons why the project became so expensive), and partly because we ordered so few Type 45s that we could not guarantee that one would always be with the Carrier.
"Normal" in the context of RN aviation ops is, as observed by others, that the air group and the platform is, together, an integrated weapons system.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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F35 seat
Some time ago on this long running thread, when there was much concern expressed by some about the STOVL flight control system in the B model, I explained why I felt they should not worry on that particular account.
Now I would like to attempt the same thing re the ejection seat:
The seat fitted to all versions of the F35 is the Mk16E which is quite different from the earlier 16A to 16D models.
Its spec required it to be tested with a nude pilot weight range from 103lb to 245lb.
It is fitted with a comfort cushion which shows how far things have moved on in dealing with the initial loads on the pilot by tailoring the gun and rocket combination.
A Yak test pilot friend of mine who used the seat fitted to the 38 and the 141 said they had never had a failure of the auto eject system although there had been cases of auto ejection being triggered because the pilot exceeded pitch attitude limits when in the hover.
Because of this when I was on the Red team before the first flight of the X35 I was delighted to be told that L-M had gone to Yak for details of their system rather than re-invent the wheel.
Friends of mine who have used the latest ant-g systems (full torso jacket plus pressure breathing etc) tell me they work best if you relax into them rather than do the old grunting straining stuff. If true that could really help the old fatigue issues of my day.
Now I would like to attempt the same thing re the ejection seat:
The seat fitted to all versions of the F35 is the Mk16E which is quite different from the earlier 16A to 16D models.
Its spec required it to be tested with a nude pilot weight range from 103lb to 245lb.
It is fitted with a comfort cushion which shows how far things have moved on in dealing with the initial loads on the pilot by tailoring the gun and rocket combination.
A Yak test pilot friend of mine who used the seat fitted to the 38 and the 141 said they had never had a failure of the auto eject system although there had been cases of auto ejection being triggered because the pilot exceeded pitch attitude limits when in the hover.
Because of this when I was on the Red team before the first flight of the X35 I was delighted to be told that L-M had gone to Yak for details of their system rather than re-invent the wheel.
Friends of mine who have used the latest ant-g systems (full torso jacket plus pressure breathing etc) tell me they work best if you relax into them rather than do the old grunting straining stuff. If true that could really help the old fatigue issues of my day.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
FPDplod/andyy,
My post was made as a response to the criticism of the Gp Capt for saying that, "The ship is part of the F35 air system."
As you will note from the comments made from the RN procurement team, that was the promise/brief they gave the government at the time - regardless of their nefarious intentions (God forbid that they should lie!!).
I am equal sure that many of the subsequent, and even more to be discovered, shortcomings in the design will be traceable back to decisions made based on that premise, which subsequent changes way well have mitigated, but not alleviated.*
One wonders if the subsequent cost of the proposed fitting of a catapult system would have been so high if, as you say, the F-35 had been considered just another interchangeable weapons asset.
Hoisting and petards come to mind.........
*And undoubtedly blamed on underhand Machiavellian machinations and counter-briefings against the RN by the RAF within the MOD.
My post was made as a response to the criticism of the Gp Capt for saying that, "The ship is part of the F35 air system."
As you will note from the comments made from the RN procurement team, that was the promise/brief they gave the government at the time - regardless of their nefarious intentions (God forbid that they should lie!!).
I am equal sure that many of the subsequent, and even more to be discovered, shortcomings in the design will be traceable back to decisions made based on that premise, which subsequent changes way well have mitigated, but not alleviated.*
One wonders if the subsequent cost of the proposed fitting of a catapult system would have been so high if, as you say, the F-35 had been considered just another interchangeable weapons asset.
Hoisting and petards come to mind.........
*And undoubtedly blamed on underhand Machiavellian machinations and counter-briefings against the RN by the RAF within the MOD.
Last edited by ORAC; 28th Sep 2015 at 17:54.