F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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Brat,
If you were one of the foot soldiers on the ground and called for close air support, given a choice, would you ask for A-10s or the "versatile" F-35?
If the F-35 is performing a role that does not require it to be stealthy, then the fact that it can perform in ‘beast’ mode is simply another plus to it’s versatility.
A fact that appears to sail right over one or two members of the ‘anti’ brigade.
A fact that appears to sail right over one or two members of the ‘anti’ brigade.
Please, Sir, I know. The quickest to arrive and the least likely to be shot down.
A-10 max speed: 381 kt
F-35 max speed: 1,058 kt
Is there a prize?
F-35 max speed: 1,058 kt
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One is indeed proven under fire, the other? well not even proven in testing..as for the quoted f35 speed laughable indeed and desperate, desperate.
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maximum speed is no indicator of Combat survivability
The A7 Corsair was originally going to be supersonic IIRC but then looking at the numbers they realised that lower and slower was more survivable, more accurate and less costly
The A7 Corsair was originally going to be supersonic IIRC but then looking at the numbers they realised that lower and slower was more survivable, more accurate and less costly
A-10's are at the bottom the wish list - AH if its close and available, followed by B-52/B-1B, then any fast jet with a downlink, and then - and only then - an A-10.
but, you know, A-10 whoop...
that would have been some achievement, what with being Army...
i don't know if you know this - and by refering the Army as 'they' i assume not - but a 500lb JDAM/Paveway is a very much larger hammer than the couple of 30mm rounds an A-10 might manage to get within a hundred yards of where i need it.
please, do tell me more about my experiences of being the consumer of air support. i'm literally all ears...
please, do tell me more about my experiences of being the consumer of air support. i'm literally all ears...
I think cokecan does make the point rather well that expecting the F35 to emulate let alone surpass the capabilities of the A-10 rather misses the point. Just because the A-10 was awesome to fly, could fly with one engine, one wing, no electrics, no hydraulics, was built around a massive gun, etc does not mean it is the ultimate CAS platform that F35 has to beat. Ground tactics work around the capabilities of air-support available - if the air-support capability available is faster/more accurate/more powerful then ground tactics evolve to be more daring/lighter/faster. Remember CAS means close air SUPPORT
Last edited by Trim Stab; 3rd Jan 2018 at 18:27.
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Nothing is that simple.
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Nothing is that simple.
Indeed. However, it is fair to say that no manned asset is going to be doing CAS in a sophisticated air-defense environment (even a Pantsyr-type threat) until the defenses have been taken down, and that (so far) fixed-wing platforms with DIRCM have been able to defeat MANPADS at ranges that are compatible with their sensors and weapons. This of course is irrespective of RCS.
A-10 max speed: 381 kt
F-35 max speed: 1,058 kt
Is there a prize?
Yes. A conical hat and a stool in the corner. If the base is not close to the target (in airpower terms - under 200 nm), an F-35 will scream in at Mach 1.6 and say "sorry chaps, need to refuel, good luck, bye". As will pretty much any FJ at max speed. I think you know that.
Conversely, where the A-10 outpoints FJs is persistence over the target, or in the area. I don't see the 30-mm. as being vital in the era of PGMs or in the coming era of guided tube rounds; but the Hog will have its uses in a small-arms-and-MANPADS environment until another CAS platform comes along. By the way, small gunships and light attackers have their uses too - turboprops and DIRCM make a tough target for MANPADS.
But what you do need for CAS, in addition to a diverse PGM magazine, is multi-band EO/IR targeting and a Rover-equivalent video link. So let's continue this discussion when the F-35 has these things, which on current plans may start to happen in 2023.
Indeed. However, it is fair to say that no manned asset is going to be doing CAS in a sophisticated air-defense environment (even a Pantsyr-type threat) until the defenses have been taken down, and that (so far) fixed-wing platforms with DIRCM have been able to defeat MANPADS at ranges that are compatible with their sensors and weapons. This of course is irrespective of RCS.
A-10 max speed: 381 kt
F-35 max speed: 1,058 kt
Is there a prize?
Yes. A conical hat and a stool in the corner. If the base is not close to the target (in airpower terms - under 200 nm), an F-35 will scream in at Mach 1.6 and say "sorry chaps, need to refuel, good luck, bye". As will pretty much any FJ at max speed. I think you know that.
Conversely, where the A-10 outpoints FJs is persistence over the target, or in the area. I don't see the 30-mm. as being vital in the era of PGMs or in the coming era of guided tube rounds; but the Hog will have its uses in a small-arms-and-MANPADS environment until another CAS platform comes along. By the way, small gunships and light attackers have their uses too - turboprops and DIRCM make a tough target for MANPADS.
But what you do need for CAS, in addition to a diverse PGM magazine, is multi-band EO/IR targeting and a Rover-equivalent video link. So let's continue this discussion when the F-35 has these things, which on current plans may start to happen in 2023.
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Interesting thing that many on here stated if could CAS from 30,000 ft with the wayward [quote_to rip them up_unquote] gun system/PGM and it was naturally out of small/med/large AAA effect.
Which is handy as the ballistic trials/testing fell to the wayside under operation "catch up".....which is of course why the IAF is flying them with external lightning 5 pods ..what was that you were saying about attributes again Ken?
Which is handy as the ballistic trials/testing fell to the wayside under operation "catch up".....which is of course why the IAF is flying them with external lightning 5 pods ..what was that you were saying about attributes again Ken?
So to reiterate yet again, saying stealth is worth "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" is cute, but incredibly short sighted.
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But the point is moot. The guy on the ground simply does not get to choose. He gets what's available. And if the environment he's operating in includes radar guided anti aircraft missiles, the only thing available will likely be an F-35. Or maybe a stealthy drone.
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Nothing is that simple.
Indeed. However, it is fair to say that no manned asset is going to be doing CAS in a sophisticated air-defense environment (even a Pantsyr-type threat) until the defenses have been taken down, and that (so far) fixed-wing platforms with DIRCM have been able to defeat MANPADS at ranges that are compatible with their sensors and weapons. This of course is irrespective of RCS.
A-10 max speed: 381 kt
F-35 max speed: 1,058 kt
Is there a prize?
Yes. A conical hat and a stool in the corner. If the base is not close to the target (in airpower terms - under 200 nm), an F-35 will scream in at Mach 1.6 and say "sorry chaps, need to refuel, good luck, bye". As will pretty much any FJ at max speed. I think you know that.
Conversely, where the A-10 outpoints FJs is persistence over the target, or in the area. I don't see the 30-mm. as being vital in the era of PGMs or in the coming era of guided tube rounds; but the Hog will have its uses in a small-arms-and-MANPADS environment until another CAS platform comes along. By the way, small gunships and light attackers have their uses too - turboprops and DIRCM make a tough target for MANPADS.
But what you do need for CAS, in addition to a diverse PGM magazine, is multi-band EO/IR targeting and a Rover-equivalent video link. So let's continue this discussion when the F-35 has these things, which on current plans may start to happen in 2023.
Indeed. However, it is fair to say that no manned asset is going to be doing CAS in a sophisticated air-defense environment (even a Pantsyr-type threat) until the defenses have been taken down, and that (so far) fixed-wing platforms with DIRCM have been able to defeat MANPADS at ranges that are compatible with their sensors and weapons. This of course is irrespective of RCS.
A-10 max speed: 381 kt
F-35 max speed: 1,058 kt
Is there a prize?
Yes. A conical hat and a stool in the corner. If the base is not close to the target (in airpower terms - under 200 nm), an F-35 will scream in at Mach 1.6 and say "sorry chaps, need to refuel, good luck, bye". As will pretty much any FJ at max speed. I think you know that.
Conversely, where the A-10 outpoints FJs is persistence over the target, or in the area. I don't see the 30-mm. as being vital in the era of PGMs or in the coming era of guided tube rounds; but the Hog will have its uses in a small-arms-and-MANPADS environment until another CAS platform comes along. By the way, small gunships and light attackers have their uses too - turboprops and DIRCM make a tough target for MANPADS.
But what you do need for CAS, in addition to a diverse PGM magazine, is multi-band EO/IR targeting and a Rover-equivalent video link. So let's continue this discussion when the F-35 has these things, which on current plans may start to happen in 2023.
Horses for courses sums it up.
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that would have been some achievement, what with being Army...
i don't know if you know this - and by refering the Army as 'they' i assume not - but a 500lb JDAM/Paveway is a very much larger hammer than the couple of 30mm rounds an A-10 might manage to get within a hundred yards of where i need it.
please, do tell me more about my experiences of being the consumer of air support. i'm literally all ears...
i don't know if you know this - and by refering the Army as 'they' i assume not - but a 500lb JDAM/Paveway is a very much larger hammer than the couple of 30mm rounds an A-10 might manage to get within a hundred yards of where i need it.
please, do tell me more about my experiences of being the consumer of air support. i'm literally all ears...
Some of you seem to have overlooked attack helicopters as providing close air support/airborne fires. As this is the Military Aviation forum, such an oversight is not well played.
The 2.75 rockets are now able to fired in guided mode. Hellfire has its bugs worked out. Apache/Cobra others have mounted guns. (No, nobody has the A-10's gun, but there's more to CAS than a gun). A variety of nations have comparable munitions. If you need airborne fires, you don't need a bazillion dollar jet, nor any jet at all. Call your local helicopter battalion or squadron. (OK, if it's a Tiger, make sure they are flying that day. *Evil Grin* )
PS: I love the A-10. A lot. Hawgs is good.
The 2.75 rockets are now able to fired in guided mode. Hellfire has its bugs worked out. Apache/Cobra others have mounted guns. (No, nobody has the A-10's gun, but there's more to CAS than a gun). A variety of nations have comparable munitions. If you need airborne fires, you don't need a bazillion dollar jet, nor any jet at all. Call your local helicopter battalion or squadron. (OK, if it's a Tiger, make sure they are flying that day. *Evil Grin* )
PS: I love the A-10. A lot. Hawgs is good.
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For a thread on 'when the F-35 is cancelled' the program despite all negative opposition seems pretty robust.
The latest LM stats put out yesterday do contain some interesting info.
https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa81...s_jan_2018.pdf
Not sure how Russia’s equivalent is doing?
China pretty close mouthed about their contenders, but look to be ahead of the Russians, and other countries, well they are just soldiering on in development of 5th gen hardware.
The latest LM stats put out yesterday do contain some interesting info.
https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa81...s_jan_2018.pdf
Not sure how Russia’s equivalent is doing?
China pretty close mouthed about their contenders, but look to be ahead of the Russians, and other countries, well they are just soldiering on in development of 5th gen hardware.
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Can you find the page where they talk about trends in mean time between unscheduled maintenance, average workhours to fix problems, reliability, availability and FMC rates? Thx.
And since you bring it up, this thread started in August 2010, six months after the JPO boss was booted, but only a year or so after SecDef Gates had been assuring everyone that the program was going just fine.
And Gates said it was OK to be reliant on the JSF because the Chinese wouldn't have any stealth aircraft in 2020 and "no more than a handful" by 2025. So how's that working out?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...7042X820110105
The schedule on paper called for Block 3 IOT&E in early FY14, but flight-test jets were being delivered 6-16 months late and when they were "delivered" they still needed a ton of upgrades and fixes. It would take another three years before the program was sufficiently stabilized to even set new IOC dates.
And while you're quoting LockMart's marketing folks, here's what LockMart's consultant was telling us back then.
Despite Predicted Cost Increases, Many F-35 Program Metrics Are Positive - Lexington Institute
It's history now, but you know what the chap said about learning from history...
And since you bring it up, this thread started in August 2010, six months after the JPO boss was booted, but only a year or so after SecDef Gates had been assuring everyone that the program was going just fine.
And Gates said it was OK to be reliant on the JSF because the Chinese wouldn't have any stealth aircraft in 2020 and "no more than a handful" by 2025. So how's that working out?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...7042X820110105
The schedule on paper called for Block 3 IOT&E in early FY14, but flight-test jets were being delivered 6-16 months late and when they were "delivered" they still needed a ton of upgrades and fixes. It would take another three years before the program was sufficiently stabilized to even set new IOC dates.
And while you're quoting LockMart's marketing folks, here's what LockMart's consultant was telling us back then.
Despite Predicted Cost Increases, Many F-35 Program Metrics Are Positive - Lexington Institute
It's history now, but you know what the chap said about learning from history...
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George you do rise so reliably.
No. But then nor can we so easily find any of the problems that the Russian and Chinese programs had. Theirs is not quite 'free society' we have.
Did they have problems? Be strange if they had not.
And while you continue to bash on like a broken record, take a leaf from your own book/advice and... learn from history.
China and Russia are amongst the two most blood-soaked secretive and repressive societies going.
Is the F-35/ 5th Gen program doing better than either Russian or Chinese? We may never know, but it’s what we have. Your unending bile and negativity could be considered as 'constructive criticism’, but sadly just comes across and some ‘Pier Spreyish' very sour grapes.
No. But then nor can we so easily find any of the problems that the Russian and Chinese programs had. Theirs is not quite 'free society' we have.
Did they have problems? Be strange if they had not.
And while you continue to bash on like a broken record, take a leaf from your own book/advice and... learn from history.
China and Russia are amongst the two most blood-soaked secretive and repressive societies going.
Is the F-35/ 5th Gen program doing better than either Russian or Chinese? We may never know, but it’s what we have. Your unending bile and negativity could be considered as 'constructive criticism’, but sadly just comes across and some ‘Pier Spreyish' very sour grapes.