F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

[George K Lee]

"Despite... the money spent"?

No, Brat. Because of the money spent. Without the Pentagon's deep pockets, or rather its access to the taxpayers' pockets, the project would have been killed off years ago.

And if you think that Russian and Chinese planning looks like the JSF program, you need a stronger eyeglass prescription, or a whack on the head with the good ol' clue-by-four.

[Brat]

Well how about that. The money was spent despite your rabid opposition the project appears to be alive well and they are being being produced, so perhaps you should go and run that head of yours against some wall and stop being a Pierre Sprey Walt.

And no, the Russian pale imitation is nothing like, possibly no money? And the Chinese efforts could do with some decent engines.

[Lonewolf_50]

If the ladies would please put their handbags back on their shoulders, we might have an item or two (new?) to discuss about the F-35.


Or not.

[George K Lee]

ere ya go

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...ce/326/326.pdf

PS What are the criteria for "decent engines"? My Granny used to say that T:W ratio was an important number for fighters...

[KenV]

Originally Posted by George K Lee

PS What are the criteria for "decent engines"? My Granny used to say that T:W ratio was an important number for fighters...

There are several. Thrust/wt of the engine package is but one. Other criteria include but are not limited to:
specific fuel consumption
reliability (flt hrs between in-air shut downs)
durability (flt hrs between overhauls)
maintainability (maintenance manhrs per flt hr, etc)
inspectability (presence and location of borescope access points, etc)
compressor stall resistance
steam ingestion resistance (for carrier catapult ops)
throttle response (can it handle large throttle changes over its entire speed envelope)
horsepower extraction capability (for driving various accessories, which may include a huge lift fan in the case of the F-35B's engine)
Bleed air extraction capability
etc, etc, etc.

[Lonewolf_50]

Noise level, so that the EIS doesn't shut down your training wing ...

[Buster15]

Originally Posted by KenV

There are several. Thrust/wt of the engine package is but one. Other criteria include but are not limited to:
specific fuel consumption
reliability (flt hrs between in-air shut downs)
durability (flt hrs between overhauls)
maintainability (maintenance manhrs per flt hr, etc)
inspectability (presence and location of borescope access points, etc)
compressor stall resistance
steam ingestion resistance (for carrier catapult ops)
throttle response (can it handle large throttle changes over its entire speed envelope)
horsepower extraction capability (for driving various accessories, which may include a huge lift fan in the case of the F-35B's engine)
Bleed air extraction capability
etc, etc, etc.

That pretty much captures the primary requiremens all of which should be defined in the engine requiremens specification. Of particular importance are those 'ility' specs which are required to be demonstrated during the development programme. EJ200 is a good example where all the Reliability Maintainability and Testability had to be and were demonstrated. These are so important during the whole life cycle of the product.

[Turbine D]

Originally Posted by Brat:
Well how about that. The money was spent despite your rabid opposition the project appears to be alive well and they are being being produced, so perhaps you should go and run that head of yours against some wall and stop being a Pierre Sprey Walt.

Perhaps you are a little late to the F-35 discussion scene and missed the early history and why the program is what it is. The idea of designing and building one aircraft to do three different service missions harkens back to the Robert McNamara "folly" aircraft of the 60s which turned out to be a booming success story (tongue in cheek) as so few were built before the program was cancelled. It was cancelled because in the US Congress it received little ongoing support except from the State where the company that built it was located and it cost too much.

Now, fifty years later, give or take a few, Congress recalled the McNamara "folly" and bulletproofed the F-35 by spreading out where its individual pieces are manufactured to include nearly all 50 US States plus some foreign countries, thus assuring as you noted "the project is alive and well". Then when milestones were missed and costs ballooned, the Pentagon authorities moved the aircraft capability goalposts numerous times to fit reality and assure Congress everything was okay, we are doing just fine, just send money. So is the F-35 going to be a modern-day McNamara "folly" aircraft or an average aircraft, neither a complete success or complete failure?

Success/failure has yet to be determined, landing and taking off, firing weapons on a test range, non-detection due to its "stealth" and the recent multiple F-35 flight demonstration around South Korea near North Korea isn't proof of anything at the moment. One sure thing, beyond the procurement cost, one needs to have deep pockets for the long run. For the fleet size the Pentagon wants the life-cycle cost projections now top 1.2 trillion US dollars and it will probably go higher, nothing ever stays the same. Brat, if you haven't been, you need to save your Pounds, maybe invest in Bitcoins, lobby your politicians and DoD do the same, the F-35s are not cheap short term or in the long run for a typical average aircraft...

[Brat]

With handbag shouldered, as George has indicated the new item on the F-35. The latest Government submission on the F-35 in response to recent issues of concern.
https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../326/32610.htm
...others have possibly enlarged on his paternal grandparent’s views on a suitable engine.

There have been numerous claims made concerning both the F-35, and HMS Queen Elizabeth since both projects began in our strategic defence planning. Defence is not nor never has been ‘cheap’. And neither could be describes as average.

Given the significance, and cost of both programmes to this country, with regard to both defence and industrial base, it is perfectly reasonable to maintain scrutiny, and to expect the programme to remain timely and affordable.

Opinions have differed to a huge degree on each. Given the number of countries involved with the F-35 it could be argued that much more attention has been paid to that.

With the different political parties in charge of the various countries, and different military procurement teams, it can be said that of any major military weapon program this one may well have had the most scrutiny.

There continue to be issues of concern raised that require answers. This appears to give some to this.
https://publications.parliament.uk/p...ce/326/326.pdf

[Turbine D]

Brat,

https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../326/32610.htm

and

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...ce/326/326.pdf

I get:Page cannot be found, Must be secret info...

BTW, In terms of average, I am speaking about F-35 performance, what it probable will be verses what it could have been. The F-35 Program represent the "Finest Hours", or should I say, "Finest Years" between the military industrial complex and the government...

[sandiego89]

Looks like the C went back to the boat.


Carrier qualifications on the ABRAHAM LINCOLN: Lincoln Completes 1st F-35 Carrier Qualification


No mention of the head bobble/neck strain issue. Has the catapult stroke or strut been tweaked?


Article repasted:
The Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN 72) successfully completed Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS) Carrier Qualifications for the F-35C Lightning II program, carrier qualifying the first nine fleet aviators in the new aircraft, while underway Dec. 7-11.

Along with Abraham Lincoln, the "Rough Raiders" of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 125, the "Grim Reapers" of VFA-101, and VX-9 accomplished many first steps including first-time use of Autonomic Logistic Information System (ALIS) aboard a carrier, and use of the Joint Precision Approach and Landing System (JPALS) in an operational setting.

"Thanks to the tireless work from the VFA-125, VFA-101, VX-9, CVN72, and the Lockheed Team this detachment was able to successfully complete numerous milestones that will set the foundation for the future 5th generation employment of the F-35C into the Carrier Air Wing," said Cmdr. Scott Hulett, VFA-125 executive officer.

One of those milestones achieved was with ALIS, an information infrastructure that allows operators to plan, maintain, and sustain systems over the F-35Cs. The system provides a secure way to transmit up-to-date operations, maintenance, prognostic, support, training and technical data to users and technicians worldwide. According to Lockheed Martin, the developer of the F-35C, ALIS is considered the IT backbone of current and future aircraft throughout the Department of Defense.

Abraham Lincoln operated in inclement weather during portion of the qualification process, which gave the squadrons varying condition to test the new landing system, JPALS. The all-weather system works with the ship's navigation system to provide accurate and reliable guidance for the aircraft. Prior to this underway, F-35Cs only used JPALS for developmental testing.

While the pilots put new systems to the test in the air, Abraham Lincoln Sailors, both on and below deck achieved important milestones. The aircraft intermediate maintenance department performed their first unassisted F-35C tire change. This accomplishment provided proven capabilities that will help ensure full and successful integration of the air wing with Abraham Lincoln.

"We could not have achieved our lofty goals without the dedication and expertise from everyone involved. We look forward to working with the CVN72 team throughout 2018 as we continue to ensure 5th generation power projection from the sea," said Hulett.

By 2025, the Navy's aircraft carrier air wings are forecasted to consist of F-35C, F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, EA-18G Growlers electronic attach aircraft, E-2D Hawkeye battle management and control aircraft, MH-60R/S helicopters and Carrier Onboard Delivery logistics aircraft.
Abraham Lincoln is currently underway conducting carrier qualifications and training.

[t43562]

What good is "scrutiny" if there is no real threat of the aircraft being cancelled or replaced?

[KenV]

Originally Posted by Buster15

That pretty much captures the primary requiremens all of which should be defined in the engine requiremens specification. Of particular importance are those 'ility' specs which are required to be demonstrated during the development programme. EJ200 is a good example where all the Reliability Maintainability and Testability had to be and were demonstrated. These are so important during the whole life cycle of the product.

Its the depth and breadth of the requirements (especially the "ility" requirements) that set apart western engines from their eastern counterparts, which are often designed without many ility requirements at all.

And one requirement I missed is visible smoke emissions. To put this in perspective, the smoke problem was solved in the J79 (which powered the F-4 and many other aircraft) way back in the 1960s and all western engines since have been pretty much smokeless. And yet, the MiG-29's engines still have problems with smoke.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by t43562

What good is "scrutiny" if there is no real threat of the aircraft being cancelled or replaced?

There are lots and LOTS of incentives for success and disincentives for failure short of program cancellation/replacement.

[Brat]

Apologies turbine, I did read the answer to the first PDF posted but am uncertain if I can copy and post.

In there was quoted the following blog in support of the submission in reply to the times article, which may have already been posted/seen.

https://ukcarrierpower.tumblr.com/po...-jet-out-there

[glad rag]

That was a good read right up to....

"The aircraft intermediate maintenance department performed their first unassisted F-35C tire change. This accomplishment provided proven capabilities that will help ensure full and successful integration of the air wing with Abraham Lincoln."

Desperate. Desperate.

[sandiego89]

Originally Posted by glad rag

That was a good read right up to....

"The aircraft intermediate maintenance department performed their first unassisted F-35C tire change. This accomplishment provided proven capabilities that will help ensure full and successful integration of the air wing with Abraham Lincoln."....
.

I caught that also- a squadron crew changed a tire apparently without LockMart help!!!!


Flying a complex type to the boat, first real qualifications with fleet type pilots, complex nav systems, landings, data sharing at sea, challenging weather....and you talk about a tire change....

[Turbine D]

Originally Posted by KenV
To put this in perspective, the smoke problem was solved in the J79 (which powered the F-4 and many other aircraft) way back in the 1960s and all western engines since have been pretty much smokeless.

Well, not quite. I was around, believe it or not, when the solution to the J79 engine smoke on military aircraft was established, it was called the smokeless combustor. It was in the mid-1970s before it was fully implemented on the Phantom fighter. And more up to date, this is a photo of B-52s taking off for the 2016 readiness exercise:



Bottom line is there is often a difference in time reality between problem solution and implementation of the solution, sometimes decades.

[George K Lee]

I have been around this business for a while, and have never seen a media release that highlighted the achievement of changing a tire.

KenV - Yes, there are all sorts of nice-to-haves in an engine, but just as SFC is the big one for commercial engines, T/W is important for a fighter engine because of its influence on the rest of the design. It then becomes a driving requirement for the engine.

Right behind it is transonic/supersonic performance, which drives supersonic acceleration and supersonic persistence (the F100/F110 generation were not so strong there, the EJ200 and F119 are better).

It will be interesting to see where the new engine for the J-20 falls out, but I'd be a bit surprised if they're still in the 6.5:1 T/W class. As (cough) some engines are.

[Brat]

Yes the Chinese appear to have made significant advances according to this.
https://www.popsci.com/china-stealth-fighter-new-engine

The latest WS-10 Taihang turbofan engines developed and manufactured in China distinguished by serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps for manipulating the exhaust flow, appear to be an advanced variant of the Russian Al-31 turbofan engine.

The semicircle of small flaps, vanes which control exhaust flows on the inner nozzle, and wider after-burning variable geometry petals are absent on the Salyut AL-31. The sawtoothed serrations on the edges of its after-burning nozzles providing reduced radar signature.

Thought to provide about 14-15 tons of thrust means the J-20 can probably super-cruise at Mach 1-1.2. Possibly due to recent advances in superalloy research and single crystal turbine blades of rhenium-nickel superalloys allowing for a hotter and more efficient engine used in light weight high thrust engines like the US F109 turbofan.

Engine development in China has previously appear to have been handicapped by inferior single crystal turbine blades and the new advances could signal a major breakthrough.