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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 14th Jun 2018, 15:10
  #11421 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure why F-35 fans need to preface all their thrice recycled PR pablum positive program news with insults. A Trumpish inferiority complex, no doubt.

That said, it's been the whiners who have, so far, correctly predicted the delays and increased costs of the program. We'll see how that plays out as the RAF gets intimately familiar with the system's demands, and gets the bill for the mandatory C2D2 upgrade package. And we'll see how long it takes to get to 800 FMS sales. Maybe North Korea will be added to the list now.

Jet engines whine, and they are powerful and essential to aerospace and defense...
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Old 14th Jun 2018, 21:39
  #11422 (permalink)  
 
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Hmm, still not cancelled.
Now, F-35's delivered to the UK. If we do a modest review of the history, we will note whence the majority of the complaining posters are from since about post 1 of this thread. (My "ya gotta be kiddin' me" response in re the two years to sort out the tail hook pales in comparison to the other noise still being heard ... )

So, ladies and gentlemen, now that it is not only not cancelled, but delivered (albeit late and at a price to make one's eyes bug out) might I ask one of you to start a new thread?
Something like
"F-35: now what?"
or
"F-35: Pissing and Moaning because we can"
or
"F-35: What won't they think of next?"
or
"F-35: What software version are we on now?"
or
"F-35: Why do the Israelis get to drop bombs with them and all we get is another IOC forecast?"

or something like that.
Cancelled is, as shown by current events, now utterly overcome by events.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2018, 14:12
  #11423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Hmm, still not cancelled.
Now, F-35's delivered to the UK. If we do a modest review of the history, we will note whence the majority of the complaining posters are from since about post 1 of this thread. (My "ya gotta be kiddin' me" response in re the two years to sort out the tail hook pales in comparison to the other noise still being heard ... )

So, ladies and gentlemen, now that it is not only not cancelled, but delivered (albeit late and at a price to make one's eyes bug out) might I ask one of you to start a new thread?
Something like
"F-35: now what?"
or
"F-35: Pissing and Moaning because we can"
or
"F-35: What won't they think of next?"
or
"F-35: What software version are we on now?"
or
"F-35: Why do the Israelis get to drop bombs with them and all we get is another IOC forecast?"

or something like that.
Cancelled is, as shown by current events, now utterly overcome by events.
Certainly not going to be cancelled but totally unloved...................
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 14:42
  #11424 (permalink)  
 
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F-35: What software version are we on now?"
or
"F-35: Why do the Israelis get to drop bombs with them and all we get is another IOC forecast?"



and the answers are?
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 15:38
  #11425 (permalink)  
 
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"Albeit late and at a price to make one's eyes bug out"....

True, but perhaps an understatement. This is no ordinary PITA combo of delays and overruns, because the world's largest air force has bet everything on the program's performance. And lost.

As Dave Deptula and others repeat often, the USAF's operational fighter force is now the oldest in its history, by an increasing margin. This would not be the case if F-35 had met its 2009 schedule and procurement cost, let alone its 2001 numbers. The AF has not reached its nominal replacement rate (based on 1900 fighters and a 30-year lifetime). And there is little money available to update F-15s and F-16s to anything near the standards of current production fighters without cutting further into F-35.

Meanwhile, as F-35s get delivered, but are not at a stage where the units can accept pilots fresh out of T-38s, the operational-but-not-deployed squadrons remaining can't produce enough qualified fighter pilots, and the AF is looking at a three-digit buy of armed trainers, which it will then be stuck with for many years.
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 20:15
  #11426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Hmm, still not cancelled.
Now, F-35's delivered to the UK. If we do a modest review of the history, we will note whence the majority of the complaining posters are from since about post 1 of this thread. (My "ya gotta be kiddin' me" response in re the two years to sort out the tail hook pales in comparison to the other noise still being heard ... )

So, ladies and gentlemen, now that it is not only not cancelled, but delivered (albeit late and at a price to make one's eyes bug out) might I ask one of you to start a new thread?
Any chance the moderator can be asked to rename the thread or is that a no no on this forum?
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 20:35
  #11427 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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If you look at the first post the original subject was as to what would be the consequences of the UK cancelling it’s F-35 order due to defence cuts - not the entire program being cancelled.

I would suggest that while the original tranche of 48 seem secure, the question of whether the entire planned purchase of around 140 will occur is still moot - particularly since the present defence minister seems to be leaning towards additional Typhoon, presumably for the same defence review/cost reasons.

The title would therefore still seem apt - if parochial......
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 00:39
  #11428 (permalink)  
 
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First European built F-35 for the RNLAF begins assembly

-RP
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 12:23
  #11429 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rhino power View Post

"sniggers"
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 17:27
  #11430 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George K Lee View Post
I'm not sure why F-35 fans need to preface all their thrice recycled PR pablum positive program news with insults. A Trumpish inferiority complex, no doubt.

That said, it's been the whiners who have, so far, correctly predicted the delays and increased costs of the program. We'll see how that plays out as the RAF gets intimately familiar with the system's demands, and gets the bill for the mandatory C2D2 upgrade package. And we'll see how long it takes to get to 800 FMS sales. Maybe North Korea will be added to the list now.

Jet engines whine, and they are powerful and essential to aerospace and defense...
George, your post above is nothing BUT a huge insulting whinge and whine.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 19:40
  #11431 (permalink)  
 
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Seriously, Brat - I'm making the assertion that those who have held negative views of the program (the same goes for GAO, DOT&E and the Joint Estimating Team) have consistently been correct in predicting schedule and cost problems. Dispute that with facts if you can. (You can't.)

I don't believe, for example, that any program advocate predicted that the USAF would have trouble getting to 80/year. Or that the first step in Block 4 - however it is defined now - would be fixing stuff left over from Block 3.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 21:42
  #11432 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SamYeager View Post
Any chance the moderator can be asked to rename the thread or is that a no no on this forum?
There's no point in doing that, Sam.
This long running discussion began in 2010 and is aptly named for its intended purpose.
It's got over 11,000 posts. If you've followed the discussion here on PPRuNe as various concerns came to light on this ever-so-controversial aircraft, I think you'll find some nuggets of pure gold in and around the rants and piss taking.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 22:21
  #11433 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed, T28B. I took the time to skim some early pages the other day. The thread started after the US program director, Mike Heinz, had been fired ("Heinz Gets Canned" as some evilminded headline writer put it) and just as the MoD began its lurch towards cats and traps, with Boeing quietly pushing the Super Hornet. The new program boss was in the process of defenestrating most of the senior management and it would take another three years before anyone could commit to a schedule or a budget. I suspect from that evidence that the picture on the inside was worse than the most avid naysayer could imagine.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 20:13
  #11434 (permalink)  
 
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Hmm, still not cancelled.
Now, F-35's delivered to the UK. If we do a modest review of the history, we will note whence the majority of the complaining posters are from since about post 1 of this thread.
Well he may not have posted on PPRuNe, AFAIK, but…..

The Pentagon's own Director of OT&E - a retired USAF Major General, a respected and highly experienced TP has said:

"​​​​​​​The operational suitability of the F-35 fleet remains below requirements and is dependent on work-arounds that would not meet Service expectations in combat situations.”

This is not the conclusion of some jaded and cynical journalist, conditioned to expect the worst after living with the trials and tribulations of what has been a difficult, troubled and much delayed programme for most of his adult life. Nor has it originated from the F-35’s competitors. This is the judgement of the Pentagon’s own head of Operational Test and Evaluation – a high official with an unequalled view of the F-35 development, test and evaluation programme, and the senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense on operational and live fire test and evaluation of Department of Defense weapon systems.

Nor is Behler out of step with his predecessor, Dr. Michael Gilmore, who judged that “the operational suitability of all variants continues to be less than desired by the Services."

Last year, Gilmore concluded that “if used in combat, the F-35 aircraft will need support to locate and avoid modern threat ground radars, acquire targets, and engage formations of enemy fighter aircraft due to unresolved performance deficiencies and limited weapons carriage availability.”

The fact that they've delivered a handful to the UK proves nothing. It doesn't even answer the many criticisms levelled at the aircraft in the Times, by the NAO, or by the House of Commons Defence Committee in their paper.

​​​​​​​
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 20:16
  #11435 (permalink)  
 
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Or indeed at aerospaceanalysis/posts/906982352841257 on Facebook…..
​​​​​​​
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 07:25
  #11436 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.sea...emplate=ampart

Itís my understanding that these four were on their way to Israeli AF.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 12:45
  #11437 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NineEighteen View Post
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.sea...emplate=ampart

Itís my understanding that these four were on their way to Israeli AF.
Your link is dodgy, at least according to my browser... (opera)

-RP
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 13:33
  #11438 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting. It worked on my phone but not in my Mac (Just to clarify, this is Portsmouth, New Hampshire, USA)



PORTSMOUTH -- Four of what appeared to be the newest models of the Air Force's F-35 fighter jets made a stop at the Portsmouth International Airport at Pease on Monday.

The newest jets represent the fifth generation of the Air Force fighters, according to Lockheed Martin's website, which manufactures the fighters.

Pease crash and rescue firefighters could be seen around the plane late Monday afternoon, which was sitting at Runway 34 near the Pease Golf Course.

A large group of onlookers stopped to get a look at the fighters.

Bruce Cultrera, the owner of Seacoast Helicopters, said he viewed two of the F-35s located in a hangar close to his, and another was on the runway.

"And they're all brand new," Cultrera said late Monday afternoon.

The F-35 Lightning II, as the new generation of fighters are called, combine "advanced stealth with fighter speed and agility, fully fused sensor information, network-enabled operations and advanced sustainment," according to the Lockheed Martin website.


[img]blob:https://www.pprune.org/5c91aefd-9e2d...7-7f017b5bf207

Source: seacoastonline dot com

Last edited by NineEighteen; 19th Jun 2018 at 20:02. Reason: Clarification on location
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 15:55
  #11439 (permalink)  
 
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​​​​​​​This picture raised a few questions in my mind

What current inventory weapons are currently cleared on the UK F-35B apart from Paveway IV? Has the UK acquired any of the weapons currently used by US F-35s? Is ASRAAM still cleared for external carriage only (eg in non-stealthy configuration)? Does the UK have any examples of the right variant of AMRAAM for internal carriage? When will the gun pod be available, and has the UK acquired any?
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 19:06
  #11440 (permalink)  
 
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Jackonicko, the answers to most of your queries are probably classified.

By the way, please PM me so that I can give you the address to which I'd like you to return my VC10K3 'secondary role' slides.
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