F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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No, you may not.
What you 'may' do, is provide the data corroborating LM/Flynn's claims,
Considering test results from March '15, how do you figure the F35 is going to measure up vs Typhoon?
Now on the subject of the "March '15 test results" you asked about, may I point out that those tests had NOTHING to do with close-in dog fight performance and used airframes that included no air-to-air weaponry (beyond the gun) on either aircraft.
Now using your wording, "how do you figure" Flynn "lied". To be courteous and to remain "professional", I shan't address your "clown" remark.
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Originally Posted by KenV
Combat configured for an air-to-air missile fight where F-35 carries its missiles internally, F-35 is equal or better. Transonic acceleration is equal or better. Sustained and instantaneous turn rate is equal. Overlays of Energy Maneuverability (E-M diagrams) show F-35 equal or better.
F-35 will turn out to be the greatest air superiority fighter ever made.
It has already decimated a number of air forces, including the Dutch F-16 fleet, well before achieving full operating capability. No doubt it will claim many more.
It has already decimated a number of air forces, including the Dutch F-16 fleet, well before achieving full operating capability. No doubt it will claim many more.
I'm a bit reluctant to enter this "no prisoners" thread, but here goes. First of all I'm not pro or anti F-35, but offer the following observation:
A comment about 5 posts ago discussed a claimed a kill ratio vs red air in the 2015-2020 time frame, apparently made to the Australian parliament. Well, we're already in 2015, and by the time the Aussies get F-35 in service I would expect us to be over half way through the 2015-2020 time period!
A comment about 5 posts ago discussed a claimed a kill ratio vs red air in the 2015-2020 time frame, apparently made to the Australian parliament. Well, we're already in 2015, and by the time the Aussies get F-35 in service I would expect us to be over half way through the 2015-2020 time period!
Combat configured for an air-to-air missile fight where F-35 carries its missiles internally, F-35 is equal or better. Transonic acceleration is equal or better. Sustained and instantaneous turn rate is equal. Max load factor is equal. Overlays of Energy Maneuverability (E-M diagrams) show F-35 equal or better. And F-35 has a 50 degree AOA limit while Typhoon's is 25 degrees.
Cool that you have E-M diagrams for the F-35 and Typhoon that have not been made up by some fankiddy/gamer. You must have some interesting clearances.
High AoA limits are not a bad thing in themselves, but if you don't have the E-M and control authority to use them without becoming a grape, they are of little tactical signficance.
Cool that you have E-M diagrams for the F-35 and Typhoon that have not been made up by some fankiddy/gamer. You must have some interesting clearances.
High AoA limits are not a bad thing in themselves, but if you don't have the E-M and control authority to use them without becoming a grape, they are of little tactical signficance.
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Biggus, It was from the joint sims that LM,USAF,USMC,USN and partners conduct. They said they get a better LER when they put pilots in the loop.
They can 'guess' what red air is post 2020, but they may wait to see what evolves. I think Australia will go IOC in 2020
They can 'guess' what red air is post 2020, but they may wait to see what evolves. I think Australia will go IOC in 2020
I don't think you can dismiss Flynn, Davis, Burbage or Liberson on the grounds that the F-35 had already been "sold".
The program has 30 international orders under contract. Of the eight partner nations, one has reopened a competition, another is contemplating doing so and at least two may buy many fewer than the originally planned numbers. So it continues to be important to sell the program.
The program has 30 international orders under contract. Of the eight partner nations, one has reopened a competition, another is contemplating doing so and at least two may buy many fewer than the originally planned numbers. So it continues to be important to sell the program.
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LO, you may be able to add Australia to that list, we did plan for 100. We have committed to about 75. We replaced the F-111 with 24 FA-18f till a 2025 time frame. The now 36 super hornet/growlers fleet may well extend and be retired with the USN fleet.
Canada I see as politics, as both parties have shown support for the F-35. It must be a well governed country if the way it is procured is all they have to squabble about.
They will be 'publicly' selling the F-35 for the next 30 years with carefully chosen phrases. I don't think that sways the numerous evaluation teams that report to their air force leaders and governments.
Canada I see as politics, as both parties have shown support for the F-35. It must be a well governed country if the way it is procured is all they have to squabble about.
They will be 'publicly' selling the F-35 for the next 30 years with carefully chosen phrases. I don't think that sways the numerous evaluation teams that report to their air force leaders and governments.
Originally Posted by Radix
The Dutch are having to spend extra money again to keep the ageing F-16 fleet operational, because LM is just not delivering.
F-16's end up being sold off and others being taken out of active service to be cannibalised for spares. They started with 200 F-16's. There are 60 left. The high cost of the F-35 means they can only afford ~35 F-35's.
F-16's end up being sold off and others being taken out of active service to be cannibalised for spares. They started with 200 F-16's. There are 60 left. The high cost of the F-35 means they can only afford ~35 F-35's.
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All a bit quiet about IOC?
Interesting that the US Marines have yet to declare IOC?
A recommendation is reported to have been sent up the line for approval a number of days ago, one would have thought that this would have been a simple case of rubber stamping....
A recommendation is reported to have been sent up the line for approval a number of days ago, one would have thought that this would have been a simple case of rubber stamping....
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Lets see what transpires. It will be telling just what initial actually turns out to be.
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So, what about time eh? The Dutch are having to spend extra money again to keep the ageing F-16 fleet operational, because LM is just not delivering.
Last edited by KenV; 31st Jul 2015 at 16:40.
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Cool that you have E-M diagrams for the F-35 and Typhoon that have not been made up by some fankiddy/gamer.
2. You are welcome to call the F-35 Joint Test Force "fankiddy/gamer", but I disagree on that point.
3. I was asked for specifics. AOA was just one of them.
May I ask once again if you have found any relevant data that would support the accusation that Flynn's claims were "lies". Or were the accusations based on assumptions?
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A few quotes from David "Chip" Berke (a USMC pilot with F/A-18, F-16, F-22, F-35 and Typhoon experience.)
4th Gen Rule 1: "Speed is life and more is better"
5th Gen Rule 1: "Info is life and more is better"
If you are measuring an airplane by speed and agility, you are misunderstanding the capabilities of an airplane in a 5th Generation fight.
The Raptor has more speed and maneuverability than any other fighter. Yet the LEAST impressive feature of the Raptor is its speed and manueverability. Speed and maneuverability are the LAST thing I am concerned about in a 5th Gen fight.
Innovation takes time and it is painful and expensive, but it is absolutely essential in a 5th Gen fight. And when talking 5th Gen, that means 2020 to 2025, not today. We aren't there yet operationally.
If you are thinking in 4th Gen terms, you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose. It is not just about the role, it is about the potential.
The F-35 facilitates an entirely new war fighting ecosystem in the same way that the iPhone created an entirely new mobile device ecosystem.
If you think of the iPhone as a phone that happens to play music and access the internet, you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose. If you think of the F-35 as a fighter that happens to be stealthy and interconnected, you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose. F-35 must be viewed is a sensor/collaborator/shooter platform.
4th Gen air warfare is about airplane dominance.
5th Gen air warfare is about spectrum dominance. F-35 is an overwhelming advancement in breadth and depth of spectrum.
Stealth means access, not just reduced detection, so that WE dictate access, not the threat
The presence of 5th Gen fighters makes 4th Gen fighters more lethal and survivable.
F-35's innovation is not what it does by itself, but what it contributes beyond the aircraft.
It is critically important to understand what it means to be part of a 5th Gen ecosystem. Equally important is understanding what it means to be excluded from it.
=======
That last line may be why so many nations are buying F-35, even though it's expensive. They understand what it means to be excluded from the 5th Gen fight and really want to be part of that fight. And they apparently view the wait and the cost as worth it.
My personal bottom line summary: You cannot use 4th Gen rules nor a 4th Gen pilot mindset to fight a 5th Gen fight. Do so and you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose.
May I gently suggest that we seem to have lots of folks here permanently stuck in a 4th Gen mindset.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxK6O5--9Z0
4th Gen Rule 1: "Speed is life and more is better"
5th Gen Rule 1: "Info is life and more is better"
If you are measuring an airplane by speed and agility, you are misunderstanding the capabilities of an airplane in a 5th Generation fight.
The Raptor has more speed and maneuverability than any other fighter. Yet the LEAST impressive feature of the Raptor is its speed and manueverability. Speed and maneuverability are the LAST thing I am concerned about in a 5th Gen fight.
Innovation takes time and it is painful and expensive, but it is absolutely essential in a 5th Gen fight. And when talking 5th Gen, that means 2020 to 2025, not today. We aren't there yet operationally.
If you are thinking in 4th Gen terms, you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose. It is not just about the role, it is about the potential.
The F-35 facilitates an entirely new war fighting ecosystem in the same way that the iPhone created an entirely new mobile device ecosystem.
If you think of the iPhone as a phone that happens to play music and access the internet, you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose. If you think of the F-35 as a fighter that happens to be stealthy and interconnected, you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose. F-35 must be viewed is a sensor/collaborator/shooter platform.
4th Gen air warfare is about airplane dominance.
5th Gen air warfare is about spectrum dominance. F-35 is an overwhelming advancement in breadth and depth of spectrum.
Stealth means access, not just reduced detection, so that WE dictate access, not the threat
The presence of 5th Gen fighters makes 4th Gen fighters more lethal and survivable.
F-35's innovation is not what it does by itself, but what it contributes beyond the aircraft.
It is critically important to understand what it means to be part of a 5th Gen ecosystem. Equally important is understanding what it means to be excluded from it.
=======
That last line may be why so many nations are buying F-35, even though it's expensive. They understand what it means to be excluded from the 5th Gen fight and really want to be part of that fight. And they apparently view the wait and the cost as worth it.
My personal bottom line summary: You cannot use 4th Gen rules nor a 4th Gen pilot mindset to fight a 5th Gen fight. Do so and you are old, you are behind, you are late, and you will lose.
May I gently suggest that we seem to have lots of folks here permanently stuck in a 4th Gen mindset.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxK6O5--9Z0
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I don't think you can dismiss Flynn, Davis, Burbage or Liberson on the grounds that the F-35 had already been "sold".
1. It post dated the "selling" of the program by more than a decade.
2. None of their performance claims have been shown to be wrong, much less lies.
The program has 30 international orders under contract. Of the eight partner nations, one has reopened a competition, another is contemplating doing so and at least two may buy many fewer than the originally planned numbers. So it continues to be important to sell the program.