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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 8th Jul 2015, 03:10
  #6621 (permalink)  
 
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LO,

You have my sympathy if you take it all so personally and you believe LM are lying to you and the rest of the world. In the years I was hanging around the plant in FW I'm afraid all I saw were very enthusiastic passionate people busting their nuts and working very long hours to make things happen as fast as they possibly could. Did you miss that bit out on your tour and go to some other Ministry of Truth type of facility that I never stumbled upon?

I didn't realise Typhoon was allowed to make excuses, and Rafale too (5 years late according to Wikipedia but you may have better info?), while LM aren't allowed any latitude. Arguably Eurofighter and Dassault really didn't do much in the way of advancing technology - all the RAF got in 2003 with the Typhoon was a twin-engine version of the F-16C of 1984. (That's a probably a bit unfair as the F-16 cockpit and hotas are quite well designed and intuitive, whereas the Typhoon cockpit and hotas are an absolute disgrace.) LM made a pretty good effort at designing 3 different airplanes simultaneously including the world's first STOVL supersonic stealth fighter. They were just a little bit more ambitious than the Europeans so you might want to cut them a little slack? Or not - up to you.

So far, all those literally hundreds of informed analysts from a dozen or more countries have verified and validated LM's air-air and air-ground capability figures and generally agreed with them. Not really sure what the pedigree of your challenge to their figures is other than a feeling in your waters after reading too much Sweetman and PPRuNe. Again, I sympathise for you if you weren't given a full read-in to the appropriate compartments and given the capabilities brief to satisfy your general and passing interest while you were at FW. But I saw many a highly skeptical Secretary of State, Minister, MP, General, Admiral, dstl expert and more who did, and not a single one left the room thinking they'd been Potemkin-villaged or 'got to after a while'. I suppose LM might have been filling the air conditioning ducts with mind-altering hypnosis drugs. Maybe the moon landings were faked too - but if so how did the WW2 bomber get up there that the Sunday Sport found?

LM have wheeled airplanes off the production line, through final finishes and into the run stations for upgrade and completion for decades. I don't think they changed anything because they heard you were coming. If you're that much of an expert on organising aircraft assembly areas then you could probably make some serious dime by offering your services as a consultant to LM? One school of thought might be that a company that has built several thousand of the world's best fighters over the last 4 decades might know more than you about that sort of thing. Or not I suppose - believe what you will.

Respectfully,
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 03:12
  #6622 (permalink)  
 
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KenV

Sounds like a reasonable theory. But how does this explain the "leaked" information from the pilot who allegedly flew the F-35 against an F-16 and lost? By this logic, the many pilots who provide good F-35 news must be biased and/or corrupt, but the lone pilot who provides bad news must be a saint and/or heroic. From that perspective, this theory does not sound so reasonable after all.
I was not posting about that particular post - mine was more relevant to SSS post 6601 ; )
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 03:26
  #6623 (permalink)  
 
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They were just a little bit more ambitious than the Europeans so you might want to cut them a little slack? Or not - up to you.
Far too ambitious - as a taxpayer I do not want to cut any slack -
The whole F35 program(me) is bizarre,as we have said many times - the non stovl versions design is compromised by the stovl version design.LM have bitten off a whole lot more than they can chew with the F35B and from a technical/maintenance point of view it will be a bit of a nightmare !
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 07:01
  #6624 (permalink)  
 
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Longeron,

LM have bitten off a whole lot more than they can chew with the F35B and from a technical/maintenance point of view it will be a bit of a nightmare !
I'd like you to back that statement up with proof please. What do you know?!

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Old 8th Jul 2015, 07:11
  #6625 (permalink)  
 
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LO,

If it's a concept, it was one that was defined five years after the JORD was written, because nobody except the Russians talked about it until 2004-05.
I must be imagining things - perhaps the US and partners are better at keeping such things out of the public domain compared to the Russians - I certainly spoke, heard and discussed the concept way before 2004-5. Yup - that stuff in the ducts must be true then....

You really do seem to have LM and the F-35 permanently in your hurt locker though. It's a shame because, like SSSETOWTF says, their folk work tirelessly and as a company I regarded them as extremely open and very, very good.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 08:25
  #6626 (permalink)  
 
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PM's floating fighter jet plan quietly sunk by Defence | afr.com
Prime Minister Tony Abbott's proposal to put F-35 fighter jets on the Navy's two 27,000-tonne troop transport assault ships has been quietly dropped ahead of the government's defence white paper after it was found the ships would require extensive reworking and the project was too costly.
F35B's might not have been a bad idea for them but it seems it's not doable (for now?).
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 08:56
  #6627 (permalink)  
 
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I suppose this is close to completely irrelevant please do not take too much notice.

I worked for a big technical company full of nice people of whom many were extremely clever and able. We nevertheless spent many many many millions trying to "take hills" that could not be taken because that was what we were told to do.

Our competitors had a long time to look at our failing ways, chose different priorities and now cannot spend the billions of dollars they earned while we were all made redundant and the company exited the business.

I'm just saying that it seems emotional to claim that X engineers are good people or evil people. They are totally constrained by what they have been told to do - by the excessive optimism of the people writing the cheques. With the wrong goals, the quality of the engineers is not really relevant to the outcome.

What is more, each of them in their narrow area can do superlative work, making the best tradeoffs possible without the end product being successful.

Last edited by t43562; 8th Jul 2015 at 08:58. Reason: spelling & idiom
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 09:08
  #6628 (permalink)  
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and from a technical/maintenance point of view it will be a bit of a nightmare !
I'd like you to back that statement up with proof please. What do you know?!
If there's anything which in comparison with the F-35 which shows it in a good light, its ALIS.....

Troubled Logistics System Critical to F-35’s Future
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 10:27
  #6629 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone have any idea by what significant margin the F-35B will fall short of the performance standard of the F-35A and F-35C?

FB
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 10:31
  #6630 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC
If there's anything which in comparison with the F-35 which shows it in a good light, its ALIS.....
Things appear to have moved on since that report published in 2014.
Originally Posted by USMC 30 Jun 2015

MARINE CORPS AIR STATION YUMA, Ariz. – --
The U.S. Marine Corps’ F-35 program took another step forward as two key capabilities were delivered to support the service’s first operational squadron...

ALIS 2.0.1 is the latest release of the software and has been released to the USMC on new mobile equipment. Aircraft maintenance, mission planning and debrief capabilities continue to be enhanced under an incremental development approach...

ALIS and the F-35 Lightning II Training System will continue to advance over time, improving the capabilities of the F-35 series as a whole, from the mission capabilities of the aircraft and the pilots to the maintainers on the ground. The systems will help the Marines of VMFA-121 declare Initial Operating Capability in July. The aircraft will be ready for future deployments aboard U.S. Navy amphibious carriers following the declaration of IOC.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 10:34
  #6631 (permalink)  
 
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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Alis says that this plane cannot go to war today because it needs to be plugged into widget xyz124 - sadly this widget is back being calibrated.......

Does Alis have a STFU override?
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 10:55
  #6632 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
Does anyone have any idea by what significant margin the F-35B will fall short of the performance standard of the F-35A and F-35C?

FB
When taking off from one of our carriers or a US or any other nation's amphibious platform, I imagine the opposite would hold true. Ker-splash!

Significant enough?
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 11:05
  #6633 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy View Post
Does anyone have any idea by what significant margin the F-35B will fall short of the performance standard of the F-35A and F-35C?

FB
Internal bomb load.

having to go back twice to deliver the equivalent number of weapons (after the glide bombs have been AAA'd out of the sky)

still less payload means more performance
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 11:57
  #6634 (permalink)  
 
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First, MSOCS & SS - T43562's post is dead on. Everyone looks hard-working and dedicated from the inside. I'm sure the Boulton-Paul production line was working flat out, night and day, delivering Defiants to our boys.

And as for the people walking away as converts from the classified briefings - I would be far more impressed if I hadn't had the same line from people trying to sell me the F-22. That was before LM realized it had far more upside in the F-35, and consequently (in 2009) backed up Bob Gates' decision to cut the F-22 line off (over the severed heads of AF leaders), assuring Gates that F-35 was on schedule. Since then, nobody's talked about the F-22's super-classified superpowers.

SS

I didn't realise Typhoon was allowed to make excuses, and Rafale too (5 years late according to Wikipedia but you may have better info?)

Talking about "excuses" is judgmental and unrealistic. I'm not saying either program was problem-free, but that you can't set the timescales alongside F-35 without considering the macro factors, not excuses, that delayed them. Germany's huge post-cold-war wobbly came close to freezing Typhoon in place, spending lots of money but making little progress except playing with the DAs.

France's PCW action was to retire their oldest fighters and upgrade M2000s and Super Etendards, deferring the need for Rafale. You need to be aware of these facts before you criticize Dassault's performancee.

Arguably...

I try to avoid this word because all too often it means "I just pulled this dubious assertion out of my ear."

...Eurofighter and Dassault really didn't do much in the way of advancing technology - all the RAF got in 2003 with the Typhoon was a twin-engine version of the F-16C of 1984.

In 2003, perhaps. Typhoon and Rafale today (according to what I have heard) offer a larger controllable/usable maneuvering envelope, the ability to carry large A2G and A2A loads at the same time, all-digital, automated and DRFM-based EW. Typhoon has supercruise and Rafale can haul a lot more than an F-16. Both have some degree of built-in RCS reduction that works in tandem with the EW.

LM made a pretty good effort at designing 3 different airplanes simultaneously including the world's first STOVL supersonic stealth fighter.

I'll agree with that. The original design is about as good as it could be, although its execution was not good (FW tried to insert new assembly tech while adhering to an unnecessary call for 9g, resulting in the 2003 weight crisis). The requirement they were working to was a disaster, resulting in the $150 million Marine jet, even with compromised goals for the USAF and USN.

To invoke Concorde again, it was a huge technical achievement and it met the requirement to haul 100 people from Paris to NY at Mach 2.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 12:06
  #6635 (permalink)  
 
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FB -

The B has 440 nm combat radius, versus 590 nm for the A. That's with internal fuel and 2 x 1000 lb JDAMs + 2 x AIM-120, (2000 lb bombs on the A), and it's HHHH versus HMMH.

The B has no internal gun.

Air combat performance will be affected by 3200 lbs greater OEW and somewhat smaller H-tails.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 12:33
  #6636 (permalink)  
 
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The whole F35 program(me) is bizarre,as we have said many times - the non stovl versions design is compromised by the stovl version design.LM have bitten off a whole lot more than they can chew with the F35B......
Bizzare? "We?" That's your opinion and one held by no one other than the very few "we". Certainly the program was ambitious. In the extreme. But the ambitious nature of the program was dictated by the customer, the US gov't. It was not LM's idea. The gov't demanded a single airframe for all the services despite past attempts at a one size fits all approach having failed. But the US gov't was convinced that new technology would make it possible this time around and demanded it. And a lot of smart folks from a lot of different countries agreed. Or at least agreed enough to buy into the program. Were they right? Mostly. Certainly sufficiently so that USAF and USN are now collaborating on a common (or at least mostly common) 6th gen fighter to replace both Super Hornet and Raptor. That was previously unheard of. Will other nations join in? Maybe. Maybe not. Will USAF and USN part ways before the aircraft is built? Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing is pretty much certain. F-35 development taught a lot of lessons that will inform the design and the programmatics of the next fighter.

.....and from a technical/maintenance point of view it will be a bit of a nightmare!
Hmmmmm. That's raw speculation without the smallest bit of data to back it up. Indeed the data that is available appears to contradict it. USMC is making great progress towards IOC. And by the time RAF/RN get their F-35s, the "technical/maintenance" aspects will be largely sorted out. That's just one advantage of a joint program like this. Solving problems for one customer benefits a bunch of other customers.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 12:46
  #6637 (permalink)  
 
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Just to add a couple of bits of detail to your post, LO. Rafale was actually help up (actually put on pause) by the French Governement due to the country's financial difficulties and political issues. It really had nothing to do with the programme itself, which also introduced three new models.

Typhoon's delays were also political, significant requirement changes post Cold War and the enormous problems created by the partner nations, mostly Germany as it went through its massive change of life.

As for what tech advances those two aircraft bought, they were huge in their day. As I have said before, every generation appears to be a greater leap forward than the last.

SSSETOWTF,

It's odd that so many of the test community during Typhoon development were singing the praises of the Typhoon cockpit, as were the members of the pilot cockpit working group - you were clearly not a member of that if you regard the result as such a disgrace.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 12:51
  #6638 (permalink)  
 
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In 2003, perhaps. Typhoon and Rafale today (according to what I have heard)......
Fascinating. 2003 was a dozen years ago. So they get a dozen years to finesse their (far far less ambitious, yet more expensive) design while some folks demand Lockheed get it perfect right out of the gate. And that's reasonable?? Really?
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 13:01
  #6639 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone have any idea by what significant margin the F-35B will fall short of the performance standard of the F-35A and F-35C?
Biggest short coming of the B vs A & C is internal weapons bay. Much smaller so it can't handle internally many of the weapons the other two can handle. Second is range. Less fuel and more drag. But its much much much better than Harrier or any other STOVL, so things are relative.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 13:02
  #6640 (permalink)  
 
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Bit it's not "right out of the gate" is it!

lol
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