Why no helo transport? Are we condemning our diggers to an easy victimology?
There were some very good articles by MAJGEN Molan in this weekends "The Australian" at least there is one influential high level mil man with cudos, supporting the oz digger. Search the Australian for Molan and you will find them
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Dead digger's mate: The army let us down
21 Sep
Dead digger's mate: The army let us down - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
'The army let us down': Lance Corporal Jared MacKinney poses in his combat fatigues in Afghanistan (Defence Department)
Video: Email claims army let digger down (ABC News)
Video: Lance Corporal MacKinney farewelled in Brisbane (7pm TV News NSW)
Video: Australian troops exposed to unnecessary risk: soldier (ABC News Breakfast)
Related Story: Houston denies diggers left short of firepower
Related Story: Soldier's widow gives birth hours after funeral
The Australia Defence Association (ADA) says an email from a soldier who fought alongside a digger killed in Afghanistan raises substantial concerns about the level of support for Australian troops.
A version of the email, edited by the ADA and given to the ABC, claims the death of Lance Corporal Jared MacKinney, during a battle near Tarin Kowt last month, could have been avoided if the Australians had more artillery and aerial support.
The soldier writes to a friend: "Everyone is too scared about collateral damage. That contact would have been over before Jared died if they had mortars."
And he adds: "The army has let us down mate and I am disgusted."
"It is bull**** how this is being reported on, not just here at home. Can you please inform some people in the media that the guys that are over here that were involved are very pissed off at the reports they got ambushed!"
The author of the email said the Australians had also been let down by poor intelligence about the size of the enemy force.
"Air took time, f*** knows why and then when it finally turned up it flew around for about 25 minutes," the soldier writes.
"Realistically we should have lost at least five or six blokes and 15 - 20 enemy were killed that we know."
The association's Neil James says the email has been sent to the Defence Force hierarchy.
"Certainly a number of the issues raised are of some concern to us and I should add they've been of concern to us even before we've seen this email," he said.
"We have long argued that the force in Afghanistan is inadequately sized for the task."
"But the underlying problem here is simply that units of the mentoring taskforce are possibly being committed in too small numbers considering the size of the enemy forces they're facing, and that in turn relates to, basically, an inadequate size of the force overall."
Lance Corporal MacKinney was killed during a three-hour battle against insurgents near Tarin Kowt last month.
Shortly after the soldier's death, the former chief of operations in Iraq, retired Major General Jim Molan, questioned why the battle lasted so long and why there appeared to be no rapid-response (i.e. heliborne) reserves available to come to the aid of the Australian patrol.
21 Sep
Dead digger's mate: The army let us down - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
'The army let us down': Lance Corporal Jared MacKinney poses in his combat fatigues in Afghanistan (Defence Department)
Video: Email claims army let digger down (ABC News)
Video: Lance Corporal MacKinney farewelled in Brisbane (7pm TV News NSW)
Video: Australian troops exposed to unnecessary risk: soldier (ABC News Breakfast)
Related Story: Houston denies diggers left short of firepower
Related Story: Soldier's widow gives birth hours after funeral
The Australia Defence Association (ADA) says an email from a soldier who fought alongside a digger killed in Afghanistan raises substantial concerns about the level of support for Australian troops.
A version of the email, edited by the ADA and given to the ABC, claims the death of Lance Corporal Jared MacKinney, during a battle near Tarin Kowt last month, could have been avoided if the Australians had more artillery and aerial support.
The soldier writes to a friend: "Everyone is too scared about collateral damage. That contact would have been over before Jared died if they had mortars."
And he adds: "The army has let us down mate and I am disgusted."
"It is bull**** how this is being reported on, not just here at home. Can you please inform some people in the media that the guys that are over here that were involved are very pissed off at the reports they got ambushed!"
The author of the email said the Australians had also been let down by poor intelligence about the size of the enemy force.
"Air took time, f*** knows why and then when it finally turned up it flew around for about 25 minutes," the soldier writes.
"Realistically we should have lost at least five or six blokes and 15 - 20 enemy were killed that we know."
The association's Neil James says the email has been sent to the Defence Force hierarchy.
"Certainly a number of the issues raised are of some concern to us and I should add they've been of concern to us even before we've seen this email," he said.
"We have long argued that the force in Afghanistan is inadequately sized for the task."
"But the underlying problem here is simply that units of the mentoring taskforce are possibly being committed in too small numbers considering the size of the enemy forces they're facing, and that in turn relates to, basically, an inadequate size of the force overall."
Lance Corporal MacKinney was killed during a three-hour battle against insurgents near Tarin Kowt last month.
Shortly after the soldier's death, the former chief of operations in Iraq, retired Major General Jim Molan, questioned why the battle lasted so long and why there appeared to be no rapid-response (i.e. heliborne) reserves available to come to the aid of the Australian patrol.
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ABC news today had an audio clip of the OC of a Darwin-based Army unit deploying to Afghanistan sprouting the company line that his troops have the best equipment and support of any of the coalition forces deployed there, (this, in answer to a news story about a soldier who had spent $5,000 of his own money to get personal equipment he considered suitable/adequate).
Am I the only one out there who is quite amazed to see that we have fielded 1500 troops to a war zone without integrated helicopter support (sorry guys, but two Chinooks doesn't cut it!) - and that the commanders of that force are telling the taxpayer - and the parents/wives of their troops that they consider their soldiers have all the support they need without that helicopter support?
I'm trying to avoid the "who did/does it better, the RAAF or the Army?" argument, (22 years after the event, it's a total non-argument, so let's not go there). However, I still find it incredible that the ADF have mothballed their gunships - 6 *** years ago!!! - and thanks to (what shall we call it? - fanciful?) decisions on buying an incredibly expensive and as yet unproven replacement, still don't have an operational replacement. AND, that same ADF is unable/unwilling to field a viable integrated rotary wing troop lift/medevac capability to accompany its deployed troops.
The Leader of the Opposition, Tony Abbott, playing the spoiler role so beloved of Leaders of the Opposition, all but said today that he has no confidence in the Australian CDF. Angus, I know you have many, many balls to juggle in trying to squeeze a quart of capability out of the proverbial pint pot along with keeping so many disparate parties happy, but in allowing the ADF helicopter force to sink to its current state, I think Abbott has a point.
Am I the only one out there who is quite amazed to see that we have fielded 1500 troops to a war zone without integrated helicopter support (sorry guys, but two Chinooks doesn't cut it!) - and that the commanders of that force are telling the taxpayer - and the parents/wives of their troops that they consider their soldiers have all the support they need without that helicopter support?
I'm trying to avoid the "who did/does it better, the RAAF or the Army?" argument, (22 years after the event, it's a total non-argument, so let's not go there). However, I still find it incredible that the ADF have mothballed their gunships - 6 *** years ago!!! - and thanks to (what shall we call it? - fanciful?) decisions on buying an incredibly expensive and as yet unproven replacement, still don't have an operational replacement. AND, that same ADF is unable/unwilling to field a viable integrated rotary wing troop lift/medevac capability to accompany its deployed troops.
The Leader of the Opposition, Tony Abbott, playing the spoiler role so beloved of Leaders of the Opposition, all but said today that he has no confidence in the Australian CDF. Angus, I know you have many, many balls to juggle in trying to squeeze a quart of capability out of the proverbial pint pot along with keeping so many disparate parties happy, but in allowing the ADF helicopter force to sink to its current state, I think Abbott has a point.
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Question re the helo support.
How many Helo's of any sort went to Timor ?
Always seemed to be a lot in the video clips.
I think the ADF is afraid of losing a Helo in combat,
especially the new one's.
How many Helo's of any sort went to Timor ?
Always seemed to be a lot in the video clips.
I think the ADF is afraid of losing a Helo in combat,
especially the new one's.
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500N, see post # 31 in this thread. To save to looking, here's the relevant quote. (My bold face.)
You may be correct, but the political/strategic fallout of a Australian helo being shot down is unacceptable, whatever might have caused it. For that reason, leave the tactics to the in theatre crews who are privy to the intelligence and knowledge of their individual platforms systems......if you want to be an armchair pundit, perhaps stick to AFL or footy!
'twas at Oakey Army Air Base today. Talk is NO helos beyond the two CH-47's for lift etc. A remote possibility of a few Tigers in a year or so. "the boys have all the air support they need from other coalition partners" it was said. A few more grunts and other thingies might be deployed...
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"the boys have all the air support they need from other coalition partners" it was said.
"Air took time, f*** knows why and then when it finally turned up it flew around for about 25 minutes," the soldier writes.
"Realistically we should have lost at least five or six blokes and 15 - 20 enemy were killed that we know."
"Realistically we should have lost at least five or six blokes and 15 - 20 enemy were killed that we know."
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Sighted leaving Amberley today- an MRH-90 cruising at about 30knots, on the back of a truck!! Obviously too broke to fly the short journey back to Brisbane. And talking to some pilots at Oakey yesterday, none yet operational and they laughed when the question arose when this may happen. 
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According to Win News tonight the MRH is operationally ready, and as for the Tiger, since the Coalition are asking it to deploy, it must be ready....they must know best as the are our Lords and Masters......
PS. Apparently the Black hawk is operational too.....only against viscously sharp slices of mango though!
LMCO
HPT
PS. Apparently the Black hawk is operational too.....only against viscously sharp slices of mango though!
LMCO
HPT
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Abbott does have a point....
.... but he's a bit short of real defence acumen in his shadow cabinet to exploit it and score a really useful march on a demonstrable government vulnerability.
I've had a few off-line inputs on the points made in this thread and I do think it would be in our troops' interests for knowledgeable people to debate the concerns and inabilities further on here.
Quite a few interested potentates are following this thread. They need to be better informed.
TS
I've had a few off-line inputs on the points made in this thread and I do think it would be in our troops' interests for knowledgeable people to debate the concerns and inabilities further on here.
Quite a few interested potentates are following this thread. They need to be better informed.
TS
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I can't believe that the whole media pack have let Jools get off scot free with her blithe announcement that the Americans will be supplying helicopter support to the Australians in Afghanistan.
40 years ago, we could do it for ourselves.
I suppose that's progress of sorts... 'progress' to a non-effective defence force that will offend no one to our north - which is what some of the huggy fluffs and latte drinkers in Canberra aspire to.
40 years ago, we could do it for ourselves.
I suppose that's progress of sorts... 'progress' to a non-effective defence force that will offend no one to our north - which is what some of the huggy fluffs and latte drinkers in Canberra aspire to.
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I can't decide whether it shows the total ineptness of the Liberal/Nationals Opposition or the sure-footed cunning of the Labor Party back room boys the way that talk of the lack of tanks in the Australian commitment to Afghanistan has dominated the news over the last few days rather than the ADF's inability to put more than two Chinnoks into operational service in Afghanistan.
Surely to God there's someone out there in the Australian media willing to ask why the ADF isn't supplying (at the very least) its own rotary wing medevac capability?
Julia Gillard and "We will use American helicopters to support our troops..." without a single, solitary "WTF?" from the Australian media speaks volumes about the total ignorance (or more likely, almost total lack of intrest) of the lot of 'em, especially when the email from the front line soldier decrying the (he says, and who are we to doubt him) unnecessary death of his comrade specifically mentions the late arrival and ineffectiveness of the (American?) air support they called for.
Surely to God there's someone out there in the Australian media willing to ask why the ADF isn't supplying (at the very least) its own rotary wing medevac capability?
Julia Gillard and "We will use American helicopters to support our troops..." without a single, solitary "WTF?" from the Australian media speaks volumes about the total ignorance (or more likely, almost total lack of intrest) of the lot of 'em, especially when the email from the front line soldier decrying the (he says, and who are we to doubt him) unnecessary death of his comrade specifically mentions the late arrival and ineffectiveness of the (American?) air support they called for.
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Saltie, with only 6 Chinook in the fleet, more than 2 of that type in AFG for more than 6 months of the year is unsustainable when you factor in maintenance and crew training requirements.
What's wrong with using US/NL/FR/SP/IT and UK air support? Do you think we can do it better than our allies?
We can't do it all.....
HPT
What's wrong with using US/NL/FR/SP/IT and UK air support? Do you think we can do it better than our allies?
We can't do it all.....
HPT
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"We can't do it all....."
Maybe, but I think most people in the ADF think we should be able to do a lot more than what we are currently doing.
Re Helo Medivac, the US seem to have a superb, well oiled set up and I can understand leaving that task to them but other helo support via Chinook or other I would have expected that the ADF would be able to provide more insertion / extraction capabilities.
And in view of the fact that we are supposed to have attack Helo's,
why have them if we aren't going to use them in the perfect environment.
And after bringing over 2 Ex British pilots ???
Maybe, but I think most people in the ADF think we should be able to do a lot more than what we are currently doing.
Re Helo Medivac, the US seem to have a superb, well oiled set up and I can understand leaving that task to them but other helo support via Chinook or other I would have expected that the ADF would be able to provide more insertion / extraction capabilities.
And in view of the fact that we are supposed to have attack Helo's,
why have them if we aren't going to use them in the perfect environment.
And after bringing over 2 Ex British pilots ???
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500N
The reality is AAAvn isn't resourced to support more than a single medium scale warfighting op on an enduring basis.
As for AH pilots that have been brought over. There are a few more than 2 ex UK AH pilots that have been recruited. Perhaps ask them and the NL and US pilots how much they have been listened to. As the the ARH......not deployable yet.....maybe soon.....maybe not.
HPT
The reality is AAAvn isn't resourced to support more than a single medium scale warfighting op on an enduring basis.
As for AH pilots that have been brought over. There are a few more than 2 ex UK AH pilots that have been recruited. Perhaps ask them and the NL and US pilots how much they have been listened to. As the the ARH......not deployable yet.....maybe soon.....maybe not.
HPT
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Perhaps ask them and the NL and US pilots how much they have been listened to
I suppose you could say that AAVN is consistent.
Arf!
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Hydraulic Palm Tree
PM sent.
Re "The reality is AAAvn isn't resourced to support more than a single medium scale warfighting op on an enduring basis."
What other "warfighting op" are they currently supporting on an enduring basis ?
Iraq ?
Timor ?
Wouldn't Afghan be high up the list over any others (except for the fact that the Gov't is scared of losing one in Combat ?).
Why have them if when the war comes we don't use them ?
PM sent.
Re "The reality is AAAvn isn't resourced to support more than a single medium scale warfighting op on an enduring basis."
What other "warfighting op" are they currently supporting on an enduring basis ?
Iraq ?
Timor ?
Wouldn't Afghan be high up the list over any others (except for the fact that the Gov't is scared of losing one in Combat ?).
Why have them if when the war comes we don't use them ?
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Swedish UH-60M's
It would appear that Sweden is also getting frustrated with delays in their NH-90 TTH program and feeling the public pressure to better to support their troops in Afghanistan. Accordingly they have chosen to take a radical (wrt cost and hence not an option for Oz) solution to the problem by looking at purchasing fifteen (15) UH-60M's to address an urgent shortfall in Combat Search and Rescue and Medical Evacuation transport capability in Afghanistan. 
See the press release below:
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...eden_10-63.pdf
Didn't the MIKE loose out to the MRH-90 for AIR 9000 Phase 2? The MIKE has been performing well in both Iraq and Afghanistan for a while now. I wonder how the AAvn guys at the frontline feel?
See the press release below:http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...eden_10-63.pdf
Didn't the MIKE loose out to the MRH-90 for AIR 9000 Phase 2? The MIKE has been performing well in both Iraq and Afghanistan for a while now. I wonder how the AAvn guys at the frontline feel?