Troops returning from Helmand pay for own flights
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Lost confidence in the RAF.
Quote:
"The crews, who work incredibly hard cannot be blamed for this situation. They can only work with the tools they are supplied with by the Government."
I agree with you there! and if the army were still operating with 1980's equipment such as unmodified SA80's, clansman radios, soft skinned vehicles, 58 pattern webbing and large packs etc, etc I'm sure they would be having doubts about their own ability to operate effectively. 216 Sqn and the RAF in general are doing a fantastic job in operating a fleet of very tired aircraft which are well past retirement age! It must be like trying to run a taxi firm using model T Fords!
"The crews, who work incredibly hard cannot be blamed for this situation. They can only work with the tools they are supplied with by the Government."
I agree with you there! and if the army were still operating with 1980's equipment such as unmodified SA80's, clansman radios, soft skinned vehicles, 58 pattern webbing and large packs etc, etc I'm sure they would be having doubts about their own ability to operate effectively. 216 Sqn and the RAF in general are doing a fantastic job in operating a fleet of very tired aircraft which are well past retirement age! It must be like trying to run a taxi firm using model T Fords!
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It strikes me that the TriStar should not be doing the AKR-BZN leg anyway. It must be used on the AKR-KAF leg as it has got DAS but it must be more effective, in terms of cost and reliablity, to cross-deck pax at AKR onto a civil charter for the final leg home/first leg out.
216 could keep a rotating det forward at AKR doing shuttles to KAF, as they have the only pax aircraft fitted for the job. Set up correctly with engineer and spares support at AKR, they could keep the aircraft running and airborne more which would make them more reliable.
NB That is more reliable not perfect. The fact remains that they have needed replacing for years.
216 could keep a rotating det forward at AKR doing shuttles to KAF, as they have the only pax aircraft fitted for the job. Set up correctly with engineer and spares support at AKR, they could keep the aircraft running and airborne more which would make them more reliable.
NB That is more reliable not perfect. The fact remains that they have needed replacing for years.
And actually the press articel was incorrect. It wasn't due to aircraft serviceability but for a Greek ATC strike that hit civair as well!
The truth sometimes is avoided to make a political statement.
That said, the facts on poor investment in the Strat AT fleet stand, and I know how hard they work.
The truth sometimes is avoided to make a political statement.
That said, the facts on poor investment in the Strat AT fleet stand, and I know how hard they work.
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Kinda makes you wonder don't it? 20 Billion+ quid alone for Trident 2 (which will NEVER fly in anger) and yet we're still moving our troops around the planet in bloody Tristars? Just how much would it really cost to get hold of half a dozen mothballed passenger aircraft (take your pick coz there's plenty sat over in the Mojave sunshine right now Mojave Air and Space Port ), bolt on a DAS and Robert's your Uncle's Brother? Can't be that hard...can it?
dc1968,
No, no harder than introducing any new aircraft that you haven't operated before. That your pilots have no experience of, your groundcrew have never maintaining, you have no technical publications for, no supply chain in place for. Oh, and that you are going to modify with a potentially unique modification.
The introduction of a new type also includes going through a variety of MOD hoops, including the new MAA, before accepting into service. Oh, and in a system which, post XV230, is very safety concious and risk adverse, maybe quite rightly so, for which you can read SLOW......
Oh, and Robert (Bob) was my Dads name.......
No, no harder than introducing any new aircraft that you haven't operated before. That your pilots have no experience of, your groundcrew have never maintaining, you have no technical publications for, no supply chain in place for. Oh, and that you are going to modify with a potentially unique modification.
The introduction of a new type also includes going through a variety of MOD hoops, including the new MAA, before accepting into service. Oh, and in a system which, post XV230, is very safety concious and risk adverse, maybe quite rightly so, for which you can read SLOW......
Oh, and Robert (Bob) was my Dads name.......
Last edited by Biggus; 16th Aug 2010 at 12:30.
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it must be more effective, in terms of cost and reliablity, to cross-deck pax at AKR onto a civil charter for the final leg home/first leg out.
216 could keep a rotating det forward at AKR doing shuttles to KAF, as they have the only pax aircraft fitted for the job. Set up correctly with engineer and spares support at AKR, they could keep the aircraft running and airborne more which would make them more reliable.
216 could keep a rotating det forward at AKR doing shuttles to KAF, as they have the only pax aircraft fitted for the job. Set up correctly with engineer and spares support at AKR, they could keep the aircraft running and airborne more which would make them more reliable.
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"with the manpower and ACHE they don't currently have"
The cost of which is a drop in the ocean compared to the UORs propping up the rest of the war. Are movers suddenly a pinchpoint trade? Are they breaking harmony guidelines? We should be looking at the fragility of the airbridge from all angles.
The cost of which is a drop in the ocean compared to the UORs propping up the rest of the war. Are movers suddenly a pinchpoint trade? Are they breaking harmony guidelines? We should be looking at the fragility of the airbridge from all angles.
Of course, if they'd fitted the C2 an AAR probe, they could be refuelling en-route without any need to land and risk breaking down at Cyprus - assuming that the tanker was serviceable, of course.....
Smaller aircraft, I grant you, but VC10Ks refuelled VC10 transports to facilitate non-stop Middle East to UK trips on several occasions in the past.
Smaller aircraft, I grant you, but VC10Ks refuelled VC10 transports to facilitate non-stop Middle East to UK trips on several occasions in the past.
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I will answer my own question:
Are they breaking harmony guidelines?
FSs and cpls are turning round at 20-24 month intervals
WOs and sgts at 30-36 months and ACs at 3-4 years.
So we are not short of movers.
Are they breaking harmony guidelines?
FSs and cpls are turning round at 20-24 month intervals
WOs and sgts at 30-36 months and ACs at 3-4 years.
So we are not short of movers.
On ARRSE, hackle (BAFF rep) suggested that it was more a case of troops delayed in Cyprus who were returning to Scotland chose to splash the cash on an Easyjet flight to make sure they got home more quickly than flying into Brize and transiting North.
Apparently it seems finding cases of people paying to fly to southern UK etc are thin on the ground...
Apparently it seems finding cases of people paying to fly to southern UK etc are thin on the ground...
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One Pax in, One Pax out multiplied by two six month tours equates to four movements, agreed.
One Pax in, One Pax out multiplied by three four month tours equates to six movements surely, thus increasing the burden by 50% as mentioned.
One Pax in, One Pax out multiplied by three four month tours equates to six movements surely, thus increasing the burden by 50% as mentioned.
Champagne anyone...?
It's also worth bearing in mnd that this article was in the DT which has, of late, gone to great lengths to display it's staunch support for the Army Great RAF Crap line of thinking. Fully expect to see Telegraph article soon on how the RAF was directly responsible for the Great Fire of London and how the number of Air Rank officers is directly related to 3rd World Poverty, Global Warming and declining A Level results.
Ting.
Ting.
TotD,
No, he means the early 2010s. The Telegraph, in true pedantic fashion, is representing 2010 as the last year of the current decade. 2011 is then the first year of the next decade.
It's the same dull pedantry that led some to claim the the new millenium began on 1 Jan 2001. Probably technically correct, but utterly at odds with our natural preference for nice round numbers.
No, he means the early 2010s. The Telegraph, in true pedantic fashion, is representing 2010 as the last year of the current decade. 2011 is then the first year of the next decade.
It's the same dull pedantry that led some to claim the the new millenium began on 1 Jan 2001. Probably technically correct, but utterly at odds with our natural preference for nice round numbers.
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It's hellish difficult getting weapons & ammunition through civvie customs, and x-ray scanners. Though some have tried.
Not to mention your 'Up the Kyber' Enfield, Russian Hand Grenade, and yer depleted uranium paperweight.
...and yer million ciggies, conterfeit viagra, and blood diamonds.
I blame it on the Movers
Not to mention your 'Up the Kyber' Enfield, Russian Hand Grenade, and yer depleted uranium paperweight.
...and yer million ciggies, conterfeit viagra, and blood diamonds.
I blame it on the Movers
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example:
10,000 troops in, Jan
10,000 troops in, May
10,000 troops in Sept
30,000 seats used, 4 Month tours no R&R
10,000 troops in, Jan
10,000 troops in, July
10,000 seats R&R Jan - Jun
10,000 seats R&R Jul- Dec
40,000 seats used on 6 Month tours with R&R
Not all RAF trade posts in country are filled with Det posts, so spare a thought for the C130 crews, engs and AMW movs before suggesting any trade isn't feeling the pinch.
Hats off to all involed in the truckie world
10,000 troops in, Jan
10,000 troops in, May
10,000 troops in Sept
30,000 seats used, 4 Month tours no R&R
10,000 troops in, Jan
10,000 troops in, July
10,000 seats R&R Jan - Jun
10,000 seats R&R Jul- Dec
40,000 seats used on 6 Month tours with R&R
Not all RAF trade posts in country are filled with Det posts, so spare a thought for the C130 crews, engs and AMW movs before suggesting any trade isn't feeling the pinch.
Hats off to all involed in the truckie world
Easy,
Thanks, I hoped so! My simpleton's logic suggests that 1980 was probably in the 1980s therefore 2010 would be in the 2010s, but I submit to the Minister's pedantry...though it will be interesting to see exactly when said AT platforms actually arrive...
Thanks, I hoped so! My simpleton's logic suggests that 1980 was probably in the 1980s therefore 2010 would be in the 2010s, but I submit to the Minister's pedantry...though it will be interesting to see exactly when said AT platforms actually arrive...
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Worth pointing out the flights route through Cyprus so that the troops coming home for good can go through decompression at Camp Bloodhound, so Air to Air wouldn't really help.