Should the RAF be scrapped? (merged)
This is the problem, assuming they "get rid" of the RAF, there will be a lot of those blue suits almost at the end of their engagements, presumably they will leave, no point doing some conversion course for 6 months if you only have 12 months remaining. Also as I and others have already said many will not want to go Army or fly Navy, presumably they will take redundancy.
Do you think the MOD will care, you will either go where they say in your usual suit, then work your time or PVR. Do you really think they will offer redundancy...
So just how much manpower will be left after that? and what percentage of that manpower will be at all interested in doing other things green/dark blue?
IMO there will be very few skilled people left, all those with skills will go elsewhere.
To do what? Civvy Flying is full, the unemployment levels are way through the roof, if you've got a family where do they live, and how do you support them?
What skills and experience will the Army and Navy have to fill the gap left by the demise of the RAF? How big a gap will there be before the remaining services can do all the jobs currently done by the RAF? How many accidents will occur due to senior management having no idea or simple skills shortages. Would you be happy to fly in an aircraft where the engineer who signs it off was on gate guard last night, and has not had proper rest?
How many of the RAF could honestly walk out the door into a job? I can't see it happening at the moment, but if they did disband the RAF I don't think the kid gloves would stay on. As to the various fleets, AT to the civvy market, C130 (anyone remember Heavilift during GW1)? Rotary is not that big so could come under JHC. FJ would be all that's left and I'm sure a suitable offer could be made. RAF Regt would go straight to the Army
Do you think the MOD will care, you will either go where they say in your usual suit, then work your time or PVR. Do you really think they will offer redundancy...
So just how much manpower will be left after that? and what percentage of that manpower will be at all interested in doing other things green/dark blue?
IMO there will be very few skilled people left, all those with skills will go elsewhere.
To do what? Civvy Flying is full, the unemployment levels are way through the roof, if you've got a family where do they live, and how do you support them?
What skills and experience will the Army and Navy have to fill the gap left by the demise of the RAF? How big a gap will there be before the remaining services can do all the jobs currently done by the RAF? How many accidents will occur due to senior management having no idea or simple skills shortages. Would you be happy to fly in an aircraft where the engineer who signs it off was on gate guard last night, and has not had proper rest?
How many of the RAF could honestly walk out the door into a job? I can't see it happening at the moment, but if they did disband the RAF I don't think the kid gloves would stay on. As to the various fleets, AT to the civvy market, C130 (anyone remember Heavilift during GW1)? Rotary is not that big so could come under JHC. FJ would be all that's left and I'm sure a suitable offer could be made. RAF Regt would go straight to the Army
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Also as I and others have already said many will not want to go Army or fly Navy, presumably they will take redundancy.
OTOH rumors are of a good redundancy package with more pull than push.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Angleterre
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OTOH rumors are of a good redundancy package with more pull than push.
What rumours of a 'good redundancy' package; most rumours I have heard are based upon making life so bloody unpleasant that I would want to go asap without a dime. ....and for sure you can shove a beret of any colour other than air force blue up yr hoop. 'king grunts are getting above themselves.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: In the suburbs
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will any of the decision makers go back and look at why a separate RAF was brought forth? The wheel seems to have taken an inordinate amount of time to complete the revolution.
Why is the UK's military the place (again) to take the cuts? What about the entitlement programs that have no end?
Besides a capability, the things bought and used by a military certainly can contribute to an economy instead of monthly hand-outs for chips and beer (although the beer and chips industries no doubt benefit from that. As they would from a larger military as well!).
Why is the UK's military the place (again) to take the cuts? What about the entitlement programs that have no end?
Besides a capability, the things bought and used by a military certainly can contribute to an economy instead of monthly hand-outs for chips and beer (although the beer and chips industries no doubt benefit from that. As they would from a larger military as well!).
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: S England
Age: 54
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A chap with less understanding of air power than your average girl guide but a somewhat great reliance on it.
You chaps seem to confuse the argument. Making a case for disbanding the RAF does not mean no understanding of the importance for Air Power. It simply means that a bloated and fat organisation's roles could be completed by other slightly less bloated and fat organisations.
Will it happen? Of course not. Should it happen? Of course not.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 2 m South of Radstock VRP
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chicken Leg. I do believe that yer man Collins has a grasp of air power almost identical to Torque Tonight's assessment. In my experience, your average BJ's gasp extends to CAS and a comforting FEZ over their immediate battlespace. Their attendence at Staff College doesn't seem to change things much.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Throughout my career I've met and worked closely with many army officers including some very senior generals. The vast majority not only had a minimal understanding of Air Power but no great desire to learn about it either being quite content for their 'experts' to deliver the capability without bothering themselves about how it was done. However, they all knew how vital it was and how scuppered they'd be without it. Its only down in the trenches below OF5 that you find these assinine debates.
Oh and if you want to find a bloated organisation look elsewhere than Air's hierarchy - it is generally held out as an example of best practise in any informed MOD debate - could it be better? Of course it could and will be once the next round of streamlining kicks in, but by wider government and business standards this is a pretty taut organisation.
Oh and if you want to find a bloated organisation look elsewhere than Air's hierarchy - it is generally held out as an example of best practise in any informed MOD debate - could it be better? Of course it could and will be once the next round of streamlining kicks in, but by wider government and business standards this is a pretty taut organisation.
This is the problem, assuming they "get rid" of the RAF, there will be a lot of those blue suits almost at the end of their engagements, presumably they will leave, no point doing some conversion course for 6 months if you only have 12 months remaining. Also as I and others have already said many will not want to go Army or fly Navy, presumably they will take redundancy.
Do you think the MOD will care, you will either go where they say in your usual suit, then work your time or PVR. Do you really think they will offer redundancy...
Ok so assuming no redundancy is on offer, a lot of people will simply drag their heels and complete the year or so they have remaining with no interest in the job at all or as you have said PVR, if they get stuffy about release times, then the above applies again.
So just how much manpower will be left after that? and what percentage of that manpower will be at all interested in doing other things green/dark blue?
IMO there will be very few skilled people left, all those with skills will go elsewhere.
To do what? Civvy Flying is full, the unemployment levels are way through the roof, if you've got a family where do they live, and how do you support them?Not everyone is AIRCREW, there are jobs available, engineers particularly can specialise in other fields very easily.
What skills and experience will the Army and Navy have to fill the gap left by the demise of the RAF? How big a gap will there be before the remaining services can do all the jobs currently done by the RAF? How many accidents will occur due to senior management having no idea or simple skills shortages. Would you be happy to fly in an aircraft where the engineer who signs it off was on gate guard last night, and has not had proper rest?
How many of the RAF could honestly walk out the door into a job? Again not everyone is aircrewI can't see it happening at the moment, but if they did disband the RAF I don't think the kid gloves would stay on. As to the various fleets, AT to the civvy market, C130 (anyone remember Heavilift during GW1)?
So assuming they privatise AT, the civilian companies would have a need for crews and engineers
Rotary is not that big so could come under JHCHow long would it take to train engineers and aircrew on the new types if the existing engineers/aircrew have lost all interest.
FJ would be all that's left and I'm sure a suitable offer could be made.Who cares about FJ they don't care about anyone else, and the FJ centric senior management have brought us to where we are now
RAF Regt would go straight to the Army They would probably be ok with that.
I hope it doesn't happen, but seriously take off those Rose tinted glasses!
I hope it doesn't happen either, but it is foolish to think that they can just disband an organisation of 50,000 and expect everyone to be ok with the alternative. People are capable of thinking for themselves, and IMO there would be a large number of dissatisfied people, are you happy to fly in something if you know the manpower that put you in that position are NFI.
It would be interesting to know how many are within a couple of years of completion of their current engagements, especially aircrew and engineers. It used to be that engineers etc joined on a 9 or 12 year engagement but it is my understanding that changed to shorter engagements.
Do you think the MOD will care, you will either go where they say in your usual suit, then work your time or PVR. Do you really think they will offer redundancy...
Ok so assuming no redundancy is on offer, a lot of people will simply drag their heels and complete the year or so they have remaining with no interest in the job at all or as you have said PVR, if they get stuffy about release times, then the above applies again.
So just how much manpower will be left after that? and what percentage of that manpower will be at all interested in doing other things green/dark blue?
IMO there will be very few skilled people left, all those with skills will go elsewhere.
To do what? Civvy Flying is full, the unemployment levels are way through the roof, if you've got a family where do they live, and how do you support them?Not everyone is AIRCREW, there are jobs available, engineers particularly can specialise in other fields very easily.
What skills and experience will the Army and Navy have to fill the gap left by the demise of the RAF? How big a gap will there be before the remaining services can do all the jobs currently done by the RAF? How many accidents will occur due to senior management having no idea or simple skills shortages. Would you be happy to fly in an aircraft where the engineer who signs it off was on gate guard last night, and has not had proper rest?
How many of the RAF could honestly walk out the door into a job? Again not everyone is aircrewI can't see it happening at the moment, but if they did disband the RAF I don't think the kid gloves would stay on. As to the various fleets, AT to the civvy market, C130 (anyone remember Heavilift during GW1)?
So assuming they privatise AT, the civilian companies would have a need for crews and engineers
Rotary is not that big so could come under JHCHow long would it take to train engineers and aircrew on the new types if the existing engineers/aircrew have lost all interest.
FJ would be all that's left and I'm sure a suitable offer could be made.Who cares about FJ they don't care about anyone else, and the FJ centric senior management have brought us to where we are now
RAF Regt would go straight to the Army They would probably be ok with that.
I hope it doesn't happen, but seriously take off those Rose tinted glasses!
I hope it doesn't happen either, but it is foolish to think that they can just disband an organisation of 50,000 and expect everyone to be ok with the alternative. People are capable of thinking for themselves, and IMO there would be a large number of dissatisfied people, are you happy to fly in something if you know the manpower that put you in that position are NFI.
It would be interesting to know how many are within a couple of years of completion of their current engagements, especially aircrew and engineers. It used to be that engineers etc joined on a 9 or 12 year engagement but it is my understanding that changed to shorter engagements.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
An example of the visibility of air power to the joe on the ground is brought out in Harry Coyle's Team Yankee. Coyle was a Tank Major in the US Army in Europe when he wrote his first book. It covers a US Army tank group in the Foulda Gap at the opening ot WWIII. Airpower on either side gets a very brief mention IIRC in relation to a helicopter action on the near horizon.
He acknowledges that the majority of the air action takes place well beyond his immediate battle field and therefore out of sight and of little tactical importance to him. Equally, provided he gets what he needs, air power probably has no strategic significance either.
Raise this to HQ level where they are no doubt eyes down, the need to approeciate air power is limited. CAS is really only heavy artillery that he has or has not got. SH is only a mobility or logistics aid and that is that. Simplistic but having worked with some Green they do profess NO knowledge of Air. Now Blue OTOH . . .
He acknowledges that the majority of the air action takes place well beyond his immediate battle field and therefore out of sight and of little tactical importance to him. Equally, provided he gets what he needs, air power probably has no strategic significance either.
Raise this to HQ level where they are no doubt eyes down, the need to approeciate air power is limited. CAS is really only heavy artillery that he has or has not got. SH is only a mobility or logistics aid and that is that. Simplistic but having worked with some Green they do profess NO knowledge of Air. Now Blue OTOH . . .
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
What skills and experience will the Army and Navy have to fill the gap left by the demise of the RAF?...How many accidents will occur due to senior management having no idea or simple skills shortages.
