Defence Review Result at End of October
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PTC REMF
I believe that the Coast Guard are funded by the Department for Transport. However, two thirds of the cost of the £7b UK SAR Helicopter project was going to be paid by the MOD. Here's a good link:
Treasury Review of Pending Projects
Given recent developments with funding for Trident, I would imagine that the MOD will now be playing hardball and leaving the DfT to foot the whole bill.
I believe that the Coast Guard are funded by the Department for Transport. However, two thirds of the cost of the £7b UK SAR Helicopter project was going to be paid by the MOD. Here's a good link:
Treasury Review of Pending Projects
Given recent developments with funding for Trident, I would imagine that the MOD will now be playing hardball and leaving the DfT to foot the whole bill.
FOD is correct re tapering of the penalty if you PVR on AFPS75. I suggest rather than causing alarm people use this quite handy little gizzer:
Under Construction
Under Construction
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Anyone seen the NEW redundancy terms they are ******* us up the a$$ with?
Its not this by the way:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/0E537...okletjan07.pdf
which is still the active link on the MOD webside.
This came out recently:
The Armed Forces (Redundancy, Resettlement and Gratuity Earnings Schemes) Order 2010 No. 345
Good to see the CS took the government to the high court when they pushed this through on them. They (the CS)won by the way.
Anyone getting compulsory redundancy should seriously consider class action...
Its not this by the way:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/0E537...okletjan07.pdf
which is still the active link on the MOD webside.
This came out recently:
The Armed Forces (Redundancy, Resettlement and Gratuity Earnings Schemes) Order 2010 No. 345
Good to see the CS took the government to the high court when they pushed this through on them. They (the CS)won by the way.
Anyone getting compulsory redundancy should seriously consider class action...
Last edited by VinRouge; 8th Aug 2010 at 19:44.
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Flt Lt retiring at Optional Retirement Date (ORD) after 16 years of Service = pension of £12,557 per year
NS
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NorthSouth,
Not great if you get made compulsorily redundant half way through your career with not a sausage of opportunity outside, having been shot at, rocketed, mortared and spent significant time away from the family for the past 8 years....
Many will laugh at this, but the pension at the end of it all was certainly at the forefront of my mind when I was did an average of 5 month-long dets a year until recently.
Not great if you get made compulsorily redundant half way through your career with not a sausage of opportunity outside, having been shot at, rocketed, mortared and spent significant time away from the family for the past 8 years....
Many will laugh at this, but the pension at the end of it all was certainly at the forefront of my mind when I was did an average of 5 month-long dets a year until recently.
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We are paying 16 billion per year into the EU, minus what they give us back for projects of which Brussels approves; our foreign aid budget is ring-fenced, including, presumably the near billion we give to India; (is that to help with their Space programme?) we have 5 million unemployed or receiving disability benefits, including 25 year olds unable to work due stress; Denis Healey tells us that the Civil Service has twice the number of employees that it really needs;...............but we are cutting the defence budget!!
The primary purpose of the state is to ensure internal and external security. Without those essentials the state is vulnerable to destruction.
One of my American cousins sent me this, which is most apposite to our present condition:-
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new
constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor
at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as
a permanent form of government.
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters
discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result
that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal
policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history has been about 200 years.
During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the
following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage.
Britain is now a vassal state of Europe with a population that sucks at the government tit. We have reached item 8.
The primary purpose of the state is to ensure internal and external security. Without those essentials the state is vulnerable to destruction.
One of my American cousins sent me this, which is most apposite to our present condition:-
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new
constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor
at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as
a permanent form of government.
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters
discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result
that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal
policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history has been about 200 years.
During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the
following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage.
Britain is now a vassal state of Europe with a population that sucks at the government tit. We have reached item 8.
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I still say chop the Welsh and Scottish assemblies........ we are paying three times over in both staffing and infrastructure to do what was once done by Parliament............
Cunning Artificer
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Quite right BIG MACH, though I think we're in the middle of Stage 7. Stage 8 is the chaos that ends in Dictatorship. As a Scottish history professor, Alexander Tyler was hardly proferring his own opinion. It was the Greek philosophers who led the way with their condemnation of "Democracy". As Aristotle put it...
"Democracy is the worst of forms (of government) as it must inevitably descend into tyranny."
In Britain's own case we missed out on Stage 5. During the early twentieth century, our wealth was dissipated - mostly through defending democracy in Europe in two major wars - taking us directly from abundance to the apathy of the fifties and sixties. It is just a matter of time before we ( i.e. Europe) are overrun from the East, unable to defend our borders or our skies.
"Democracy is the worst of forms (of government) as it must inevitably descend into tyranny."
In Britain's own case we missed out on Stage 5. During the early twentieth century, our wealth was dissipated - mostly through defending democracy in Europe in two major wars - taking us directly from abundance to the apathy of the fifties and sixties. It is just a matter of time before we ( i.e. Europe) are overrun from the East, unable to defend our borders or our skies.
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Xenolith,
Apologies if I misconstrued your post 26 (?) with my reply at post 36 (?), probably being over sensitive as I do fear that the bean counters and civil serpents are doing exactly what you say and revieiwng the whole Rotary Wing Strategy and they too are wondering why spend the costs on re-training RN Sea King crews to Merlin, and our Merlin crews to CH 47, when the cheapest option is to take the Fishead crews direct to CH47 and leave our Merlin crews where they are.
We managed to bat this off with the last 'think tank' question due to the O Boat not having a lift or hangar space that could fit CH47, but this question/observation has now resurfaced as it looks as though the O Boat will go in SDSR, with the promise that the second carrier will survive with a primary role as an amphibious boat.
This means that the Fisheads will get their hands on some of our CH47 - which maybe a good thing for Defence (and I certainly did not sign up to going to sea for protracted periods - so they are welcome to this role). But it does not bode well for the remainder of our rotary fleet, with as you have identified the Pumas likely to go and the Freaks not a real capability (sadly not lifting that much these days) and only propping the Italian AW/Finmeccanica.
As to man power cuts, my personal take (and certainly based upon no fact whatsoever) is that natural wastage will be achieved negating the requirement for redundancies.
Reduce promotion and employment opportunities (changes to commissions etc), reduce/remove CEA, tinker (i.e. reduce) with pensions, force people to move to places that they do not want to be based (Cornwall, East Anglia, Wales, Scotland), reduce HDT and other allowances.....
The push factor will be more than the pull factor of service life.....job done for the HMT
Then when the Private Sector picks up in a few years, mass exodus to airlines/civvie street and the MoD finds itself with not only very little capability, but also very few (experienced) people to operate this equipment effectively.
Anyone remember the MoD MARYLYN study (Manning and Recruitment in the Lean Years of the Nineties), which funny old thing foresaw the demographics and pull of civvie street, but it was ignored (hence the whole divisive FRIs).
'History does not repeat itself - it rhymes' - Mark Twain
Apologies if I misconstrued your post 26 (?) with my reply at post 36 (?), probably being over sensitive as I do fear that the bean counters and civil serpents are doing exactly what you say and revieiwng the whole Rotary Wing Strategy and they too are wondering why spend the costs on re-training RN Sea King crews to Merlin, and our Merlin crews to CH 47, when the cheapest option is to take the Fishead crews direct to CH47 and leave our Merlin crews where they are.
We managed to bat this off with the last 'think tank' question due to the O Boat not having a lift or hangar space that could fit CH47, but this question/observation has now resurfaced as it looks as though the O Boat will go in SDSR, with the promise that the second carrier will survive with a primary role as an amphibious boat.
This means that the Fisheads will get their hands on some of our CH47 - which maybe a good thing for Defence (and I certainly did not sign up to going to sea for protracted periods - so they are welcome to this role). But it does not bode well for the remainder of our rotary fleet, with as you have identified the Pumas likely to go and the Freaks not a real capability (sadly not lifting that much these days) and only propping the Italian AW/Finmeccanica.
As to man power cuts, my personal take (and certainly based upon no fact whatsoever) is that natural wastage will be achieved negating the requirement for redundancies.
Reduce promotion and employment opportunities (changes to commissions etc), reduce/remove CEA, tinker (i.e. reduce) with pensions, force people to move to places that they do not want to be based (Cornwall, East Anglia, Wales, Scotland), reduce HDT and other allowances.....
The push factor will be more than the pull factor of service life.....job done for the HMT
Then when the Private Sector picks up in a few years, mass exodus to airlines/civvie street and the MoD finds itself with not only very little capability, but also very few (experienced) people to operate this equipment effectively.
Anyone remember the MoD MARYLYN study (Manning and Recruitment in the Lean Years of the Nineties), which funny old thing foresaw the demographics and pull of civvie street, but it was ignored (hence the whole divisive FRIs).
'History does not repeat itself - it rhymes' - Mark Twain
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 9th Aug 2010 at 11:14.
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Depends on length of service and your current pension scheme:
and the bottom line:
I imagine you would get your pension you have earned up to that point; if you have completed your full "reckonable service", I expect you would get the following, plus gratuity and pension. This will be for bigwig star rank on 2 year contracts and our megabucks PA friends:
Compare this for the younger chaps to the "old" scheme
where someone having served 8 years would get an extra 2 months pay:
On the old scheme, someone having completed more than 12 years is getting proper shafted:
Interesting if these backhanded changes will stand up in the high court if they bring in enforced redundancy
9.—(1) A member of the armed forces is entitled to a payment under article 10 if conditions A to D are met.
(2) Condition A is that the person’s service as a member of the armed forces began before 6th April 2005.
(3) Condition B is that the person is not an excluded person.
(4) Condition C is that the person has been notified by the Defence Council that they will be treated for the purposes of the AFRS 2010 as having become redundant.
(5) Condition D is that the person’s service as a member of the armed forces ceases, in pursuance of a notification mentioned in paragraph (4), on a date after 6th April 2010.
(6) In paragraph (3) “excluded person” means—
(a) a person who is excluded by their terms and conditions of service from entitlement to payments under article 10, unless the Defence Council has agreed that they be treated as if those terms did not apply; or
(b) a person who would be entitled to a payment in respect of a notification under the Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme 2006(13) had the notification referred to that Scheme.
(2) Condition A is that the person’s service as a member of the armed forces began before 6th April 2005.
(3) Condition B is that the person is not an excluded person.
(4) Condition C is that the person has been notified by the Defence Council that they will be treated for the purposes of the AFRS 2010 as having become redundant.
(5) Condition D is that the person’s service as a member of the armed forces ceases, in pursuance of a notification mentioned in paragraph (4), on a date after 6th April 2010.
(6) In paragraph (3) “excluded person” means—
(a) a person who is excluded by their terms and conditions of service from entitlement to payments under article 10, unless the Defence Council has agreed that they be treated as if those terms did not apply; or
(b) a person who would be entitled to a payment in respect of a notification under the Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme 2006(13) had the notification referred to that Scheme.
(2) Subject to paragraph (4), an eligible person is entitled under this article to a lump sum payment calculated in accordance with articles 11 to 14.
Amount of payment under article 10: leavers with long service commitments and insufficient redundancy reckonable service
11.—(1) Subject to articles 14 to 16, if—
(a) a member of the armed forces (L1) has a long service commitment, and
(b) upon ceasing service in the circumstances described in article 9(5), L1’s redundancy reckonable service is less than the relevant period of redundancy reckonable service specified in paragraph (2),
the amount to which L1 is entitled under article 10 is one-eighth of annual pay for each year of redundancy reckonable service.
(2) The relevant period of redundancy reckonable service is—
(a) where L1 is an officer—
(i) 16 years after L1 reached the age of 21; or
(ii) 18 years after L1 reached the age of 18; and
(b) where L1 is not an officer, 18 years after L1 reached the age of 18.
11.—(1) Subject to articles 14 to 16, if—
(a) a member of the armed forces (L1) has a long service commitment, and
(b) upon ceasing service in the circumstances described in article 9(5), L1’s redundancy reckonable service is less than the relevant period of redundancy reckonable service specified in paragraph (2),
the amount to which L1 is entitled under article 10 is one-eighth of annual pay for each year of redundancy reckonable service.
(2) The relevant period of redundancy reckonable service is—
(a) where L1 is an officer—
(i) 16 years after L1 reached the age of 21; or
(ii) 18 years after L1 reached the age of 18; and
(b) where L1 is not an officer, 18 years after L1 reached the age of 18.
I imagine you would get your pension you have earned up to that point; if you have completed your full "reckonable service", I expect you would get the following, plus gratuity and pension. This will be for bigwig star rank on 2 year contracts and our megabucks PA friends:
(a) “P” is the period after the time when service ceases in the circumstances described in article 9(5), for which L2 would have served, had L2 continued in the armed forces until the end of L2’s commitment period; and
(b) that period shall be calculated in accordance with article 7, as if “P” were redundancy reckonable service.
(4) Where L2 ceases service during the interim period the amount to which L2 is entitled under article 10 is—
(a) where P is at least 3 years, 9 months’ pay;
(b) where P is at least 2 years but less than 3 years, 6 months’ pay;
(c) where P is at least 1 year but less than 2 years, 3 months’ pay; and
(d) where P is less than 1 year, one-twelfth of 3 months’ pay for each complete month the commitment is shortened.
(b) that period shall be calculated in accordance with article 7, as if “P” were redundancy reckonable service.
(4) Where L2 ceases service during the interim period the amount to which L2 is entitled under article 10 is—
(a) where P is at least 3 years, 9 months’ pay;
(b) where P is at least 2 years but less than 3 years, 6 months’ pay;
(c) where P is at least 1 year but less than 2 years, 3 months’ pay; and
(d) where P is less than 1 year, one-twelfth of 3 months’ pay for each complete month the commitment is shortened.
where someone having served 8 years would get an extra 2 months pay:
Completed SCP
Qualifying Service vs months redundancy pay
11 19
10 17
9 15
8 14
7 12
6 10
5 9
4 7
3 5
2 3
1 1
Qualifying Service vs months redundancy pay
11 19
10 17
9 15
8 14
7 12
6 10
5 9
4 7
3 5
2 3
1 1
Compensation – Leaver with More than
12 Years Service
If you are an Officer who on redundancy will have
completed at least 12 years but less than 13 years
qualifying service from age 18, you will receive a SCP
equivalent to 15 months’ pay plus 1—
12th of three months
pay for each additional whole month over
12 years.
12 Years Service
If you are an Officer who on redundancy will have
completed at least 12 years but less than 13 years
qualifying service from age 18, you will receive a SCP
equivalent to 15 months’ pay plus 1—
12th of three months
pay for each additional whole month over
12 years.
With 3 years left to go to my first ORD, I am preparing to get shafted!
Out of interest, do we get the 9 months pay + what we would have got as our terminal grant + pension had we finished the 16? I couldn't see anything that said one way or the other in all that load of bolleaux!
Out of interest, do we get the 9 months pay + what we would have got as our terminal grant + pension had we finished the 16? I couldn't see anything that said one way or the other in all that load of bolleaux!
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I think you will get your (proportion thereof) your gratuity and pension as long as you are passed IPP.
Which makes me think the people who are due to get shafted are those with remaining return on training or those currently in the training system; if I were a pilot going through training and they gave me the opportunity to either change to admin sec or bang my way through Virgin, I know which one I would be going for.
Which makes me think the people who are due to get shafted are those with remaining return on training or those currently in the training system; if I were a pilot going through training and they gave me the opportunity to either change to admin sec or bang my way through Virgin, I know which one I would be going for.
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With regard to the Telegraph article about slashing RW, I do find it interesting to see that having spent years hammering Noo Liabour he has quickly changed his tune. And I quote from Fox's own blog:
We may only be in the middle of one war, but the principle still holds good - what idiot slashes defence when you're trying to fight a war?
For more of Fox's words of wisdom on spending, have a look here:
ConservativeHome's Parliament Page: Liam Fox MP
But it is not just about manning where there is a gap. There are real gaps at the moment—we have a real shortage of battlefield helicopters, as I saw in Afghanistan a couple of weeks ago. That came as a direct result of this Government’s decision to cut the helicopter budget by £1.4 billion in 2004. We may be getting more helicopters now, but people in the field are asking what sort of idiots cut the helicopter budget in the middle of two wars.
For more of Fox's words of wisdom on spending, have a look here:
ConservativeHome's Parliament Page: Liam Fox MP
Last edited by Melchett01; 13th Aug 2010 at 20:59. Reason: Typo in original article meant post didn't make sense
