Defence Review Result at End of October
However, what is vaguely worrying is the sheer number of Brown Jobs occupying the top seats in Defence.
The UK scarcely needs a standing army at all, which is why I think the Army has been careful to get itself properly mired in Afghanistan
Last edited by Easy Street; 28th Sep 2010 at 23:00.
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Doubtless leaked from MoD - no-one else has anything to gain by leaking this the day of the NSC meeting, which implies that the rest of government weren't terribly sympathetic.
But will Fox resign over SDSR if he doesn't get his way?
S41
But will Fox resign over SDSR if he doesn't get his way?
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Interesting. Foxy appears to be growing some vertebrae.
Leaves him with two choices.
One, seize the department by the scruff of the neck and give it a bloody good shake. We all know that it has been over-ripe for reform for decades. Although this in itself will not allay the financial issues, at least we should recognise that the way out of this is not to keep on doing the "wrong things wrong", or the "wrong things right". The decision about what we want the forces to be and what we want them to achieve, the strategic direction, is paramount in all of this.
Or secondly, if it does end up being an Osbourne led blood-letting excercise, which I have my doubts about, to be honest, if he cant reconcile it, I would think more of him if he resigned the post.
We shall no doubt see though.
Leaves him with two choices.
One, seize the department by the scruff of the neck and give it a bloody good shake. We all know that it has been over-ripe for reform for decades. Although this in itself will not allay the financial issues, at least we should recognise that the way out of this is not to keep on doing the "wrong things wrong", or the "wrong things right". The decision about what we want the forces to be and what we want them to achieve, the strategic direction, is paramount in all of this.
Or secondly, if it does end up being an Osbourne led blood-letting excercise, which I have my doubts about, to be honest, if he cant reconcile it, I would think more of him if he resigned the post.
We shall no doubt see though.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
I thought someone would have noted the items obviously selected for the chop. Specifically, as far as the kipper fleet is concerned:
....Deletion of the Nimrod MR4 will limit our ability to deploy maritime forces rapidly into high-threat areas.....
....Deletion of the Nimrod MR4 will limit our ability to deploy maritime forces rapidly into high-threat areas.....
If you want Global Influence then you have to pay for it, period.
If there is no money, or real political will, then we revert to a tiny island Nation with a National Defence Force. That will be based on Air and Sea. We keep a very small standing Army to contribute to a larger entity for very short periods of time (weeks not months). In fact, I would expand the Royal Marines at the expense of the Army.
Either scenario needs to involve a Biblical type cull of our senior management.
If there is no money, or real political will, then we revert to a tiny island Nation with a National Defence Force. That will be based on Air and Sea. We keep a very small standing Army to contribute to a larger entity for very short periods of time (weeks not months). In fact, I would expand the Royal Marines at the expense of the Army.
Either scenario needs to involve a Biblical type cull of our senior management.
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Interesting to hear the latest musings of Sir Richard Dannatt on Radio 4 this morning. It would appear that he could be coming around to the idea of possibly needed a navy to do power projection (could be linked to a thought that if the UK didn't want to project its power it wouldn't need a very big army to defend the motherland). However, his focus now appears to be onto the RAF. To be fair he did mention that the RAF's helicopters and Transport were involved in Herrick (though not the fast air, other ISTAR, or FP elements) and concluded that the fast air fleet needed to be cut.
He also concluded that the Army couldn't be cut because it was deployed to Herrick. Somehow he doesn't seem to consider what could happen to the Challenger (5 regts), AS90s (5 regts), Starstreak HVM (2 regts) and Bulldogs (3 bns) that aren't seen much in Afghanistan or, to a lesser extent, Warriors (8 bns of vehicles to sp 1deployed coy's worth).
He also concluded that the Army couldn't be cut because it was deployed to Herrick. Somehow he doesn't seem to consider what could happen to the Challenger (5 regts), AS90s (5 regts), Starstreak HVM (2 regts) and Bulldogs (3 bns) that aren't seen much in Afghanistan or, to a lesser extent, Warriors (8 bns of vehicles to sp 1deployed coy's worth).
Last edited by Climebear; 29th Sep 2010 at 09:54.
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The line of questioning of Dannatt, and the BBC News - Britain suffered defeat in Iraq, says US general "British defeated in Iraq" story on the BBC News website has also pretty much led me to believe that the BBC has declared war on the MoD. I know they've never been our greatest supporters, but much of the comment was downright political in nature and they seem to be trying to talk down the military / military morale.
I hope that Dr Fox's letter has a positive effect. i think he has pretty much got it spot on.
However I fear we are about to become a third rate nation unable to effectively defend our own shores or dependancies whilst fighting a conflict we don't seem to have the political backing or political will to win, or at the very least be effective. I believe that once that conflict is over, we will be unable to wage war outside our shores, and will be unable to play any part on the world stage.
If we're going to do something, we HAVE to do it right, or not do it at all.
I hope that Dr Fox's letter has a positive effect. i think he has pretty much got it spot on.
However I fear we are about to become a third rate nation unable to effectively defend our own shores or dependancies whilst fighting a conflict we don't seem to have the political backing or political will to win, or at the very least be effective. I believe that once that conflict is over, we will be unable to wage war outside our shores, and will be unable to play any part on the world stage.
If we're going to do something, we HAVE to do it right, or not do it at all.
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The Liam Fox letter seems to imply that he understands defence better than any minister since Robertson. If the budget is fixed, what requirements are dropped; if the requirements are fixed, how much is it going to cost. Simples.
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Just my cynical opinion of course, but the leaking of the Liam Fox letter is all part of the political game being played at the moment. It is just another card being played to reduce the shock of the cuts to come.
The cuts will be pushed through in one way or another, but Liam will be seen to be a man with backbone, who stood up to the PM. That gives him lots of smarty points in the eyes of the more gullible people out there.
Everybody knows about the leak and how it occurred and they are all “appalled”. It’s all a big game.
Yes, sorry I have been watching too much “Yes Prime Minister”
The cuts will be pushed through in one way or another, but Liam will be seen to be a man with backbone, who stood up to the PM. That gives him lots of smarty points in the eyes of the more gullible people out there.
Everybody knows about the leak and how it occurred and they are all “appalled”. It’s all a big game.
Yes, sorry I have been watching too much “Yes Prime Minister”
Yes, sorry I have been watching too much “Yes Prime Minister”
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"Yes, Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister" should always be understood as documentaries rather than comedy; it's easier to dramatise it to illuminate the truth than any other way. And yes, it is both hilarious and far, far better than "In the Loop".
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Liam Fox is a clever man and I believe an honorable one (comparatively at least) make no mistake though this was leaked on purpose to try and soften the blow of the inevitable cuts, actually naming the Nimrod (cutting Nimrod MR4 WILL etc) and the surface fleets was very interesting, it will be interesting to see if he can save these from the chop against the level of cuts that will be imposed.
If these are his contentious cuts then what does he propose will be sacrificed in their place? or what concessions will he have to make?
You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be plenty of horse trading between the three services and despite lots of people's assumptions about the Nimrod receiving support from the RN they will look after their own first and at the expense of others. ie yes minister we can manage the deterent defence and rapid deployment on our own (as long as we get to keep our toys!)
The gossip/rumor/uncertainty merry go round has just cranked up that bit faster!
If these are his contentious cuts then what does he propose will be sacrificed in their place? or what concessions will he have to make?
You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be plenty of horse trading between the three services and despite lots of people's assumptions about the Nimrod receiving support from the RN they will look after their own first and at the expense of others. ie yes minister we can manage the deterent defence and rapid deployment on our own (as long as we get to keep our toys!)
The gossip/rumor/uncertainty merry go round has just cranked up that bit faster!
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The sad thing is that the Nimrod fleet is too small to be viable, thus easy to earmark for the chop. If that happens, decades of experience and world-class excellence in airborne ASW, as well as the best Maritime aircraft ever, will be lost with little hope of resurrection.
I hope that those at the top, both Government and Service, think long and hard before making an irrevocable decision.
I hope that those at the top, both Government and Service, think long and hard before making an irrevocable decision.
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If the Nimrod fleet bites the big one - what does that do for Trident and nuke deterrence?
Weren't the Russian's sniffing around trying to follow a bomber recently?
Weren't the Russian's sniffing around trying to follow a bomber recently?