Defence Review Result at End of October
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Instead of scrapping/disposing of various items of RAF hardware would it not be possible to store these aicraft as the US Forces do at Davis Monthan AFB . A new vast temperature/humidity controlled facility has just been opened at RMB Chivenor just to store trucks ! Could we not store these aircraft in a semi airworthy condition , surely it's better than putting them to the scrapman's torch . Who knows when we may need them again-Just a thought .
Aircraft storage? Ah yes - just as we did with some VC10Ks at that well-known low-humidity, low salt environment.....RAF St Athan.
Then 'They' decided they needed one back for one of Bliar's 'bring a bottle and come as you are' Balkan wars.
So in April 1999 I went to fly the airtest on a 'stored' VC10K2 after Scrapheap Challenge had found enough engines and had mopped out most of the rainwater. In flight we had the "It'll never happen" loss of #1 & #3 busbars whilst doing shut downs and relights. Shutdown #3 engine, then # 1 alternator had a think about things before deciding "This is too much" and tripped - but didn't do so cleanly. So the system protected itself from cascade failure and we ended up with no attitude systems (are you listening, Haddon-Cave, this is a design consequence of fitting a HDU to the VC10K without including a polyphase start set), masses of warning lights and failure flags...and a rising cabin altitude. Restarted #3 and got #1 and #3 busbar back with their associated PFCUs, diverted to Brize. Where they found that all the sea water which had gathered in the bilges during 'storage' had corroded a voltage regulator.
Went off a couple of days later to do the rest of the air test; all OK until ELRAT drop when the voltage and frequency went nuts on the approach and smoke appeared on the flight deck. Smoke drill, throw it on the ground and give it to the engineers - yet another corroded voltage regulator, this time it was the ELRAT's.
Eventually they managed to fix it; we ended up using it for normal duties and released another jet for Bliar's war. Within 2 years it had been scrapped....
Then 'They' decided they needed one back for one of Bliar's 'bring a bottle and come as you are' Balkan wars.
So in April 1999 I went to fly the airtest on a 'stored' VC10K2 after Scrapheap Challenge had found enough engines and had mopped out most of the rainwater. In flight we had the "It'll never happen" loss of #1 & #3 busbars whilst doing shut downs and relights. Shutdown #3 engine, then # 1 alternator had a think about things before deciding "This is too much" and tripped - but didn't do so cleanly. So the system protected itself from cascade failure and we ended up with no attitude systems (are you listening, Haddon-Cave, this is a design consequence of fitting a HDU to the VC10K without including a polyphase start set), masses of warning lights and failure flags...and a rising cabin altitude. Restarted #3 and got #1 and #3 busbar back with their associated PFCUs, diverted to Brize. Where they found that all the sea water which had gathered in the bilges during 'storage' had corroded a voltage regulator.
Went off a couple of days later to do the rest of the air test; all OK until ELRAT drop when the voltage and frequency went nuts on the approach and smoke appeared on the flight deck. Smoke drill, throw it on the ground and give it to the engineers - yet another corroded voltage regulator, this time it was the ELRAT's.
Eventually they managed to fix it; we ended up using it for normal duties and released another jet for Bliar's war. Within 2 years it had been scrapped....
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I don't think Dr Fox has too much to worry about with the Mod Plod clowns investigating:
Liam Fox letter: police search MoD after leak - Telegraph
Liam Fox letter: police search MoD after leak - Telegraph
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A common theme in this, and many other threads, appears to be that of inter-service rivalry. A perception exists that the degree of this apparent rivalry seems to increase with rank and reach fever pitch at the most senior levels of each Service. Call me naive or stupid (and I’m sure somebody will!), but I'm struggling to understand why this exists amongst our most senior officers. It surely cannot be for reasons of personal gain as this would question the unquestionable integrity of our most senior leaders. Most would agree that the Armed Forces need soldiers, sailors and airmen, but doesn’t this just equate to a group of people that do different jobs, who work together to achieve a common aim? Does it really matter what the colours of their uniforms are as long as the job gets done? And we are all on the same side, I hope! So is inter-service rivalry just about job protectionism or some desire to uphold military tradition at the expense of completing the task in hand? Or is it just about opposing views on how best to achieve the aim? Politicians decide the strategic objectives of the country; service men and women are apolitical in this regard, so there can be no political explanation for inter-service rivalry. A naval officer who says that ships are better than aircraft is just as absurd (and frankly childish) as an air force officer who believes aircraft are better than armoured vehicles; this couldn’t be the root cause of inter-service rivalry could it?
I just don’t get it! Does inter-service rivalry really exist amongst the senior chiefs, and if so, please can somebody more cleverer than what I is suggest any plausible explanations for its existence in the modern age?
I just don’t get it! Does inter-service rivalry really exist amongst the senior chiefs, and if so, please can somebody more cleverer than what I is suggest any plausible explanations for its existence in the modern age?
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OHP Ok.... you are naive and stupid, sorry I couldn't resist
Could the problem possibly be the macho warrior culture within the military, lots of getting one over on everyone else to show that they are the Alpha male?
The higher up the tree the more alpha you become with all that saluting.. I know it's supposed to be the commission that it is being saluted but you can't say that you don't enjoy it even just a teensy weensy bit. Up to now they have also had the mansions and servants to make the senior officers feel important.
To be important you have to have your own empire, which reflects figuratively the size of your willy.
Previously the army and navy were totally different roles, you couldn't use your ship to dominate a country totally so they rubbed along. Enter aviation which can attack both it upset the status quo and they have been arguing ever since as far as I can see.
I can't see it ever changing; when there are enough resources for everyone's needs rather than wants then it all gets contained; but at a time like this ... well it's every service for themselves.
Speaking as a civvy I wish they would act collegiately to pinch a phrase from Dr Fox today but I can't see it.
Could the problem possibly be the macho warrior culture within the military, lots of getting one over on everyone else to show that they are the Alpha male?
The higher up the tree the more alpha you become with all that saluting.. I know it's supposed to be the commission that it is being saluted but you can't say that you don't enjoy it even just a teensy weensy bit. Up to now they have also had the mansions and servants to make the senior officers feel important.
To be important you have to have your own empire, which reflects figuratively the size of your willy.
Previously the army and navy were totally different roles, you couldn't use your ship to dominate a country totally so they rubbed along. Enter aviation which can attack both it upset the status quo and they have been arguing ever since as far as I can see.
I can't see it ever changing; when there are enough resources for everyone's needs rather than wants then it all gets contained; but at a time like this ... well it's every service for themselves.
Speaking as a civvy I wish they would act collegiately to pinch a phrase from Dr Fox today but I can't see it.
Last edited by EGGP; 29th Sep 2010 at 21:51. Reason: spilling
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EGGP, I did say, 'call me naive OR stupid', not both 
. Anyway, thanks for your reply, but I was hoping for responses from people more cleverer than me .
I like your alpha male theory; however, I'll refrain from the obvious retort regarding appendage, other than just adding that I believe it was my circumcision that prevented me from being accepted for a commission
Rgds, OHP
. Anyway, thanks for your reply, but I was hoping for responses from people more cleverer than me .I like your alpha male theory; however, I'll refrain from the obvious retort regarding appendage, other than just adding that I believe it was my circumcision that prevented me from being accepted for a commission
Rgds, OHP
Last edited by OHP 15M; 29th Sep 2010 at 22:24. Reason: dyslexic fingers
OHP,
It could of course be the case that the Service chiefs have been watching Yes Minister too. To paraphrase Sir Humphrey, the standing and success of a company is measured by the size of its profit - or loss.
As the MOD and doesn't make a profit (it seems to be quite good at making losses though) then the standing of the MOD in comparison to other departments is proportionate to the various departments' budgets. Following on from that, within the MOD, whichever of the 3 Services takes the biggest slice of the budget is therefore the most successful and highly regarded of the Services.
Therefore, the reason for the perpetual willy waving competition between the various Services in an attempt to be seen as the most successful and relevant organisation.
It could of course be the case that the Service chiefs have been watching Yes Minister too. To paraphrase Sir Humphrey, the standing and success of a company is measured by the size of its profit - or loss.
As the MOD and doesn't make a profit (it seems to be quite good at making losses though) then the standing of the MOD in comparison to other departments is proportionate to the various departments' budgets. Following on from that, within the MOD, whichever of the 3 Services takes the biggest slice of the budget is therefore the most successful and highly regarded of the Services.
Therefore, the reason for the perpetual willy waving competition between the various Services in an attempt to be seen as the most successful and relevant organisation.
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David Cameron on collision course with Armed Forces
Yet even as Mr Cameron defended Dr Fox's right to argue against cuts, he and George Osborne, the Chancellor, told the Defence Secretary to seek extra cost-cutting measures. The Prime Minister also rejected Dr Fox's attempts to shield the Navy from the brunt of the cuts.
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The next day, Mr Cameron's National Security Council met to review Dr Fox's plans and instructed him to produce even deeper cuts in the equipment programme.
The council raised fresh questions about the Navy's plan for two new aircraft carriers, despite Dr Fox warning about the dangers of cutting maritime forces.
The council, which includes several senior Cabinet ministers, concluded that Dr Fox "had a lot more work to do" to make the necessary cuts. Senior government sources said Dr Fox's appeal to Mr Cameron would not alter the Treasury's demands.
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The next day, Mr Cameron's National Security Council met to review Dr Fox's plans and instructed him to produce even deeper cuts in the equipment programme.
The council raised fresh questions about the Navy's plan for two new aircraft carriers, despite Dr Fox warning about the dangers of cutting maritime forces.
The council, which includes several senior Cabinet ministers, concluded that Dr Fox "had a lot more work to do" to make the necessary cuts. Senior government sources said Dr Fox's appeal to Mr Cameron would not alter the Treasury's demands.
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Just my cynical opinion of course, but the leaking of the Liam Fox letter is all part of the political game being played at the moment. It is just another card being played to reduce the shock of the cuts to come.
The cuts will be pushed through in one way or another, but Liam will be seen to be a man with backbone, who stood up to the PM. That gives him lots of smarty points in the eyes of the more gullible people out there.
Everybody knows about the leak and how it occurred and they are all “appalled”. It’s all a big game.
The cuts will be pushed through in one way or another, but Liam will be seen to be a man with backbone, who stood up to the PM. That gives him lots of smarty points in the eyes of the more gullible people out there.
Everybody knows about the leak and how it occurred and they are all “appalled”. It’s all a big game.
The reality might be different. But with regards to perception, I wonder if anyone now involved with defending the RAF against cuts, reflects on whoever it was who approved those mainly, appalling docusoaps which showed 'real life' at Kandahar (Lisa (19, from Staines), the zany, bubbly Admin clerk has to leave the bar and close down her Social Networking session early to sneak off to secretly see lover Lee (21, a firefighter from Hull), and they have a heart to heart at a Detachment fancy dress party about the difficulties of conducting a secret relationship against the barbeque lit backdrop of the white heat of war) etc. By contrast, I don't recall seeing anything other than sweaty, gritty, grime filled reality when seeing the army at work.
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The reality might be different. But with regards to perception, I wonder if anyone now involved with defending the RAF against cuts, reflects on whoever it was who approved those mainly, appalling docusoaps which showed 'real life' at Kandahar (Lisa (19, from Staines), the zany, bubbly Admin clerk has to leave the bar and close down her Social Networking session early to sneak off to secretly see lover Lee (21, a firefighter from Hull), and they have a heart to heart at a Detachment fancy dress party about the difficulties of conducting a secret relationship against the barbeque lit backdrop of the white heat of war) etc. By contrast, I don't recall seeing anything other than sweaty, gritty, grime filled reality when seeing the army at work.
Last edited by Climebear; 30th Sep 2010 at 08:20.
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Sorry for a bit of thread drift:
Beagle, it must have been hell for you and the crew to have had to divert to Brize rather than land back at Saint’s…..bet you were gutted 
their associated PFCUs, diverted to Brize. Where they found
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A nice graph from the economist (via arrse)
If the Health and Education budgets were restored to their levels of only a couple of years ago, Defence could be saved from oblivion.
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Budgets..
We can safely say that the value to us all of the 3(jobs etc) is pretty even, although the NHS does have 10 times more staff. But what value to you place on the products of each Dept?
Educate your kids...tick
Heal your maiden aunt...tick
Invade someone elses country, shoot their sons....tick
It's a simple argument...defence should never match the spending of the others,if it did we would worry about the aspirations of our leaders.
5d2d
Educate your kids...tick
Heal your maiden aunt...tick
Invade someone elses country, shoot their sons....tick
It's a simple argument...defence should never match the spending of the others,if it did we would worry about the aspirations of our leaders.
5d2d
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I agree, the public and the electorate are fed up of the wars in the Middle East and don't understand why our young men are out there and understand even less whilst so many of them are coming home in boxes.
Many of them see the Defence budget as a black hole into which their hard earned taxes are being thrown.
The public will support just wars and back our boys to the hilt but will soon get fed up paying for far flung conflicts when the NHS and Education are much more important in their everyday lives.
Defence is important to those in Defence and to everybody else when something goes wrong near to home.
Many of them see the Defence budget as a black hole into which their hard earned taxes are being thrown.
The public will support just wars and back our boys to the hilt but will soon get fed up paying for far flung conflicts when the NHS and Education are much more important in their everyday lives.
Defence is important to those in Defence and to everybody else when something goes wrong near to home.
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Far and away the biggest drain on spending for the last decade has come from the Iraq invasion, how much did we spend there? for what?
Did anyone watch Secret Iraq last night? unbelievable.
And even Dannat admitted that the reason we were so keen to get into Afghanistan was to cover our tracks and make our leaving Iraq a sweeter pill for the Americans to swallow, you couldn't make this stuff up!
Did anyone watch Secret Iraq last night? unbelievable.
And even Dannat admitted that the reason we were so keen to get into Afghanistan was to cover our tracks and make our leaving Iraq a sweeter pill for the Americans to swallow, you couldn't make this stuff up!
J
Another facet of the same problem is that defence strategy and spending has to follow foreign policy/strategy. And during the dire years of NuLabour foreign policy seemed to be made up on the hoof. There was no real debate of our aspirations about where we wanted to be in global affairs. Hence the public has lost any ability to (or interest in???) discern how grand a role we should play. For far too long, no one has joined the dots for the man in the street to show him where defence fits in.
Another facet of the same problem is that defence strategy and spending has to follow foreign policy/strategy. And during the dire years of NuLabour foreign policy seemed to be made up on the hoof. There was no real debate of our aspirations about where we wanted to be in global affairs. Hence the public has lost any ability to (or interest in???) discern how grand a role we should play. For far too long, no one has joined the dots for the man in the street to show him where defence fits in.
Beagle, it must have been hell for you and the crew to have had to divert to Brize rather than land back at Saint’s…..bet you were gutted
Still, it saved us another 3 hour trip on the M4 in a crew bus....