A400 Grizzly
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Airbus says more order cuts would undermine A400M
Airbus said on Friday that further cuts in orders for its A400M military transport planes, as one politician from Germany's ruling coalition suggested this week, would mean production would no longer be worthwhile.
The manufacturer cannot afford to build fewer than 170 of the A400M planes, a company spokesman said on Friday after a German politician called for a further cut in Germany's order.
"There would be no economic foundation for the A400M programme with under 170 planes," an Airbus spokesman said.
Juergen Koppelin, defence expert for the Free Democrats, coalition partners of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives, said Germany should reduce its order by 20 planes to 40.
Airbus parent company EADS reached a deal in March with seven European NATO nations, including Germany, that allows them to cancel up to 10 of the planes they ordered in total.
They had originally ordered 180 A400M planes and Koppelin's suggestion would reduce that to 160 without taking into account cancellations by any other countries.
Airbus said on Friday that further cuts in orders for its A400M military transport planes, as one politician from Germany's ruling coalition suggested this week, would mean production would no longer be worthwhile.
The manufacturer cannot afford to build fewer than 170 of the A400M planes, a company spokesman said on Friday after a German politician called for a further cut in Germany's order.
"There would be no economic foundation for the A400M programme with under 170 planes," an Airbus spokesman said.
Juergen Koppelin, defence expert for the Free Democrats, coalition partners of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives, said Germany should reduce its order by 20 planes to 40.
Airbus parent company EADS reached a deal in March with seven European NATO nations, including Germany, that allows them to cancel up to 10 of the planes they ordered in total.
They had originally ordered 180 A400M planes and Koppelin's suggestion would reduce that to 160 without taking into account cancellations by any other countries.
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To get back to the original thread, all official documentation still bears the name "A400M Loadmaster"
(Well, it did when I left the office yesterday at least)
What each Air Force decides to call it is up to them, but I really don't think it'll matter. I seriously doubt anyone on the line will call it a "Loadmaster" as it would get too confusing, so just like the C17 not regularly being called a "Globemaster", it'll just be called an A400!
As for it being cancelled, ask 2 questions;
1 - Where is A400 going to be based?
2 - Who's constituency is it in?
(for the "not-so-on-the-ball", here's the answers....)
1 - "Future Brize"!
2 - PM Cameron.
(Well, it did when I left the office yesterday at least)
What each Air Force decides to call it is up to them, but I really don't think it'll matter. I seriously doubt anyone on the line will call it a "Loadmaster" as it would get too confusing, so just like the C17 not regularly being called a "Globemaster", it'll just be called an A400!
As for it being cancelled, ask 2 questions;
1 - Where is A400 going to be based?
2 - Who's constituency is it in?
(for the "not-so-on-the-ball", here's the answers....)
1 - "Future Brize"!
2 - PM Cameron.
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Déja vu again ?
Wasn't it a German politician who managed to hold up the Eurofighter/Typhoon programme by suggesting that surplus Mig29s from the former East German Air Force would be a more economical and equally effective way of defending united German airspace?
Talk about spanners in works (or foot in mouth?): anything to embarrass the other party in the governmental coalition, of which the gentleman (ie, his party) is supposed to be a member.
Talk about spanners in works (or foot in mouth?): anything to embarrass the other party in the governmental coalition, of which the gentleman (ie, his party) is supposed to be a member.
Wasn't that SecDef Rühe back then? Not Mig-related IIRC.
He wanted to modify the Eurofighter to make it cheaper. Finally that took more time and money.
He wanted to modify the Eurofighter to make it cheaper. Finally that took more time and money.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
AW&ST: Germany Confirms A400M Agreement
FRANKFURT — Germany will take only 53 of the 60 Airbus Military A400Ms originally on order, German government sources indicated on Oct. 25.
A400M customers continue to chip away at the commitment of 180 units that was negotiated as part of a general settlement reached in March. With the U.K. planning to cut its commitment by three aircraft, the total program now totals 170 aircraft.
French avionics specialist Thales will have to cover possible additional expenses for flight management system (FMS) changes, according to the sources. But a German defense ministry letter to leading Bundestag defense committee members says that industry has to come to a final agreement on the FMS matter.
Defense State Secretary Thomas Kossendey writes in the statement obtained by AVIATION WEEK that implementation of the March 31 heads-of-terms deal with the A400M nations turned out to be more challenging than expected. In his view, that is mainly due to the lengthy search for a compromise on the industry side and reworked planning for the FMS.
But the letter concludes that “significant progress has been made” since then, and negotiations on Oct. 1 “should finally have led to a breakthrough. After tough negotiations so far, an agreement with regards to critical aspects, particularly the financial ones, could be found according to the view of the nations.” Kossendey refers to talks involving the nations, the Occar arms procurement agency and Airbus Military.
An EADS official did not confirm the letter or any of the details, but said he was confident a deal could be reached before the end of the year.
The defense ministry believes that changes and additions to the 2003 industrial contract and further negotiations on the FMS will take the remainder of October. The German defense committee could then deal with the altered terms at a December meeting, according to the letter.
FRANKFURT — Germany will take only 53 of the 60 Airbus Military A400Ms originally on order, German government sources indicated on Oct. 25.
A400M customers continue to chip away at the commitment of 180 units that was negotiated as part of a general settlement reached in March. With the U.K. planning to cut its commitment by three aircraft, the total program now totals 170 aircraft.
French avionics specialist Thales will have to cover possible additional expenses for flight management system (FMS) changes, according to the sources. But a German defense ministry letter to leading Bundestag defense committee members says that industry has to come to a final agreement on the FMS matter.
Defense State Secretary Thomas Kossendey writes in the statement obtained by AVIATION WEEK that implementation of the March 31 heads-of-terms deal with the A400M nations turned out to be more challenging than expected. In his view, that is mainly due to the lengthy search for a compromise on the industry side and reworked planning for the FMS.
But the letter concludes that “significant progress has been made” since then, and negotiations on Oct. 1 “should finally have led to a breakthrough. After tough negotiations so far, an agreement with regards to critical aspects, particularly the financial ones, could be found according to the view of the nations.” Kossendey refers to talks involving the nations, the Occar arms procurement agency and Airbus Military.
An EADS official did not confirm the letter or any of the details, but said he was confident a deal could be reached before the end of the year.
The defense ministry believes that changes and additions to the 2003 industrial contract and further negotiations on the FMS will take the remainder of October. The German defense committee could then deal with the altered terms at a December meeting, according to the letter.
But a German defense ministry letter to leading Bundestag defense committee members says that industry has to come to a final agreement on the FMS matter.
Given that the UK's A400M will not be operated as a tanker (except, presumably, for some of the 90+ helicopters the RAF will eventually operate...), are you sure you meant to type 'A400M'? Or did you mean 'A330' ?
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Hi Beagle
Perhaps my wording was misleading....
As posted by FlightGlobal earlier yesterday (Defence Correspondent was on a visit to Airbus Military).
Gareth
Perhaps my wording was misleading....
As posted by FlightGlobal earlier yesterday (Defence Correspondent was on a visit to Airbus Military).
A400M to do receiver trials with RAF VC10 tanker late this year from Brize Norton. Dry contacts only. Test fleet now done over 200 flights.
A400M to do receiver trials with RAF VC10 tanker late this year from Brize Norton. Dry contacts only.
Somewhat ambiguous tw@tter comment - it isn't clear whether the VC10K is 'from Brize Norton' or whether the A400M will be flown from Brize. To me it would seem rather odd to send a test aircraft, plus spares and support crew, across to Brize rather than just flying the VC10K to a suitable French AARA and flying the Grizz from Toulouse.
Unless, of course, it's going to be doing more than just some receiver trials.
"The INTRODUCER"
The info released yesterday was that Grizzly 1 will visit BZN, probably in last couple of weeks of the year, to perform dry contacts as a receiver from VC-10. The purpose is to assess handling qualities and in particular the effect of the tanker downwash.
Grizzly 1 is also being fitted with refuelling pods (same as MRTT pods) but at the moment primarily with an eye to assessing aerodynamic effects. Wet contacts not until mid-2011.
In terms of flight envelope the A400M is capable of refuelling fast jet, rotary, and anything happy with hose and drogue in between. All aircraft ordered so far have internal provision for refuelling specified (ie everything that needs fitting during manufacture), however I don´t think any customers have so far made public their precise intentions regarding fielding the capability. In practice there will obviously be a spectrum of equipage from fully tanker-ready just requiring the conversion from transport to tanker on the day, to basic provision-only.
Lots of info released yesterday which will no doubt turn up in the usual locations over the next week or two. And an interesting year ahead.
Grizzly 1 is also being fitted with refuelling pods (same as MRTT pods) but at the moment primarily with an eye to assessing aerodynamic effects. Wet contacts not until mid-2011.
In terms of flight envelope the A400M is capable of refuelling fast jet, rotary, and anything happy with hose and drogue in between. All aircraft ordered so far have internal provision for refuelling specified (ie everything that needs fitting during manufacture), however I don´t think any customers have so far made public their precise intentions regarding fielding the capability. In practice there will obviously be a spectrum of equipage from fully tanker-ready just requiring the conversion from transport to tanker on the day, to basic provision-only.
Lots of info released yesterday which will no doubt turn up in the usual locations over the next week or two. And an interesting year ahead.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hmmm, isn't the HDU hose always wet? So even if the pump is off you get the content actually in the hose itself??
Apologies if I disremember, it has been over 15 years since I controlled any AAR.
Apologies if I disremember, it has been over 15 years since I controlled any AAR.
The centreline should be primed even for 'dry' prods, so that the hose 'flies right' rather than 'straightening up'. Once the receiver makes contact, even with the 'tanker end' closed off, the hose will usually empty even if just into the receiver's probe and AAR inlet gallery. Unless, that is, there's a method of closing off the receiver's probe completely.
Hence my reference to 'damp' (or 'moist'...) contacts!
There's also a slightly esoteric reason for such contacts not to be completely 'dry' - involving the HDU fuel valve and the normal light sequence for the receiver. But there's no universal STANAG (yet) for this.
Not necessary for wing hoses though - and usually not even possible (except for a pointless modification on one tanker type...
) ). If receivers miss a wing hose, they'll often call for the wing hoses to be 'primed' as they think that the tanker is at fault..... Such calls are usually met with "Roger" and nothing is done - but it keeps the frustrated FJ prodder happy!
Hence my reference to 'damp' (or 'moist'...
) contacts!There's also a slightly esoteric reason for such contacts not to be completely 'dry' - involving the HDU fuel valve and the normal light sequence for the receiver. But there's no universal STANAG (yet) for this.
Not necessary for wing hoses though - and usually not even possible (except for a pointless modification on one tanker type...
) ). If receivers miss a wing hose, they'll often call for the wing hoses to be 'primed' as they think that the tanker is at fault..... Such calls are usually met with "Roger" and nothing is done - but it keeps the frustrated FJ prodder happy!
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"Damp" contact
Years ago when the Victor 1 was just a very young pup, the then rumour network talked about a trial AAR contact (receiving) during which the Victor's rear crew were very cross about getting more than a bit "damp"...
AAR was pretty new then as well, so it's not surprising (if the rumour had any foundation in fact) that some "unknown unknowns" were encountered.
Some of us larfed (quietly) ...
PS. Nice to see that there's also progress on the Grizzly front, though the mighty Europrops haven't exactly been thundering in the skies south of Toulouse for a while.
AAR was pretty new then as well, so it's not surprising (if the rumour had any foundation in fact) that some "unknown unknowns" were encountered.
Some of us larfed (quietly) ...
PS. Nice to see that there's also progress on the Grizzly front, though the mighty Europrops haven't exactly been thundering in the skies south of Toulouse for a while.
Last edited by Jig Peter; 28th Oct 2010 at 15:49. Reason: add PS - to stay more or less on thread
Then there was some steely-eyed matelot in a Navy Bucc, which had recently been fitted with a probe. Find a passing Victor, join, plug in, fuel flows....but nothing shows on the gauges...
So, muttering curses about the incompetence of the tanker crew, he pokes off and lands.
Being a Navy jet, they fold the wings - then someone swings the radome open and about 200 lb of Avtur gushes forth...
Yes, the jet had been fitted with a probe - but the other part of the mod. hadn't yet been completed - so as yet there was no pipe 'twixt probe and tanks.
I hasten to add that this tale is secondhand, so whether it's actually true or belongs with the 'Shackleton making an approach on a carrier' folklore, I cannot say!
So, muttering curses about the incompetence of the tanker crew, he pokes off and lands.Being a Navy jet, they fold the wings - then someone swings the radome open and about 200 lb of Avtur gushes forth...
Yes, the jet had been fitted with a probe - but the other part of the mod. hadn't yet been completed - so as yet there was no pipe 'twixt probe and tanks.
I hasten to add that this tale is secondhand, so whether it's actually true or belongs with the 'Shackleton making an approach on a carrier' folklore, I cannot say!
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Can someone explain why the VC10K should be used in this trial?
The A400M or Grizzley or whatever it's to be called, (I personally like "Airtruck" as it is a freighter, and it goes well with "Airbus" - the version used by SLF!) is not going to be in service for years - 2016 perhaps??
The VC10 ought to (at last!) have been put "out to grass" before then so testing compatability would be better with two platforms whose service lives are going to coincide. Wouldn't it be more representative to use an A330T, KC767 or whatever?
The VC10 is also known for being a rather benign "donor" as far as tankers go and less of a challenge to the "receiver" than say a Tristar or KC-135. Perhaps this is the reason?
Just curious....
MB
The A400M or Grizzley or whatever it's to be called, (I personally like "Airtruck" as it is a freighter, and it goes well with "Airbus" - the version used by SLF!) is not going to be in service for years - 2016 perhaps??
The VC10 ought to (at last!) have been put "out to grass" before then so testing compatability would be better with two platforms whose service lives are going to coincide. Wouldn't it be more representative to use an A330T, KC767 or whatever?
The VC10 is also known for being a rather benign "donor" as far as tankers go and less of a challenge to the "receiver" than say a Tristar or KC-135. Perhaps this is the reason?
Just curious....
MB
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The KC-135 only has a centreline boomso is not capable (BDA is a non-starter). The Tristar goes out of service about the same time as the VC-10, and, as it can still carry pax on the airbridge, can less easily be spared for the task.
As for the KC-330: Second RAF FSTA Takes Off On Post-mod Test Flight
The second Future Strategic Transport Aircraft derivative of Airbus’s A330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) for the UK Royal Air Force made its first post-modification test flight from Madrid yesterday (Oct 26).
Airbus Military says that the crew reported that the aircraft, its systems, and Rolls-Royce Trent 700 engines performed entirely satisfactorily during the 2 hr flight from Getafe.
Meanwhile work is progressing on the installation of the Cobham-supplied fuselage refuelling unit (FRU) system on FSTA number one in Getafe, says Gabriel García Mesuro, Airbus head of flight operations and test.
“There was a delay in the delivery of the system from the supplier but we have now received it,” says Mesuro.
This aircraft performed around five flights prior to going into the workshop. Early next year will be used for refuelling qualification tests in the UK with various RAF aircraft including the Eurofighter Typhoon. Mesuro says the aircraft may also fly some refuelling trials with the Airbus Military A400M. Formal deliveries to the RAF are due to begin towards the end of 2011, says Airbus.
Meanwhile the first MRTTs for Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are due to make the first post-modification test flights from Getafe early next year.
Pictures: Airbus Prepares Next Two A400Ms in Seville
Video: A400M minimum unstick and rough-strip trials
As for the KC-330: Second RAF FSTA Takes Off On Post-mod Test Flight
The second Future Strategic Transport Aircraft derivative of Airbus’s A330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) for the UK Royal Air Force made its first post-modification test flight from Madrid yesterday (Oct 26).
Airbus Military says that the crew reported that the aircraft, its systems, and Rolls-Royce Trent 700 engines performed entirely satisfactorily during the 2 hr flight from Getafe.
Meanwhile work is progressing on the installation of the Cobham-supplied fuselage refuelling unit (FRU) system on FSTA number one in Getafe, says Gabriel García Mesuro, Airbus head of flight operations and test.
“There was a delay in the delivery of the system from the supplier but we have now received it,” says Mesuro.
This aircraft performed around five flights prior to going into the workshop. Early next year will be used for refuelling qualification tests in the UK with various RAF aircraft including the Eurofighter Typhoon. Mesuro says the aircraft may also fly some refuelling trials with the Airbus Military A400M. Formal deliveries to the RAF are due to begin towards the end of 2011, says Airbus.
Meanwhile the first MRTTs for Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are due to make the first post-modification test flights from Getafe early next year.
Pictures: Airbus Prepares Next Two A400Ms in Seville
Video: A400M minimum unstick and rough-strip trials
A400M Flight Trials
I think you will find that these trials at Brize are more to do with aircraft handling than intended to provide a clearance for refuelling. There is a good report on overall progress with the flight test campaign at A400M close to first air drop, refuelling tests, says Airbus
in which it is mentioned that the tests are to de-risk later trials with MSN4 next year which will, presumably, be much more about whether the receiver system works and how the crew needs to do it.
in which it is mentioned that the tests are to de-risk later trials with MSN4 next year which will, presumably, be much more about whether the receiver system works and how the crew needs to do it.