Ascent recruiting King Air aircrew
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Flybe and Eastern effectively define the basic market rate for twin turboprop aviation
If the civilian market picks up in a couple of years and MFTS are not offering a competitive package, they will very soon end up with no pilots at all.
It seems to me Beagle, that you have a bit of a chip on the lapel over something - you weren't refused a position with Ascent, were you?
I'm an ex military, KA pilot. I would love to kid myself that my quals and experience are worth £70k pa for a UK position....... sadly they're not. Neither can I convince myself that a KA should be compared to a Q400 or maybe a C130, just because they've got props!
I think you sometimes let your bitterness stand in the way of sensible reason Beagle!
.....you weren't refused a position with Ascent, were you?
I'm an ex military, KA pilot. I would love to kid myself that my quals and experience are worth £70k pa for a UK position....... sadly they're not. Neither can I convince myself that a KA should be compared to a Q400 or maybe a C130, just because they've got props!
The only chip I have is with the whole notion of MFTS - the whole concept is tosh. If the contractors manage to make a profit, but not at their employees' expense, then fine. But I suspect that even in the medium term the overall cost to the MoD will be greater than the cost of 'normal' military flying training would have been.
Your 'quals and experience' are worth no less than whatever the equivalent rate is in the military right now, plus BUPA, Denplan etc. Or whatever an airline would pay a basic line turboprop captain.
The only chip I have is with the whole notion of MFTS - the whole concept is tosh. If the contractors manage to make a profit, but not at their employees' expense, then fine. But I suspect that even in the medium term the overall cost to the MoD will be greater than the cost of 'normal' military flying training would have been.
Last edited by Trim Stab; 17th Jul 2010 at 13:17.
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Let's not forget why MFTS was dreamt up in the first place. MFTS as a concept was meant to remove the sometimes ridiculous holds between different phases of training. It was also meant to drag training and the delivery of, into the 21st century - using modern media and technology to support training in modern 'glass' cockpits and workstations. It was also meant to remove certain aspects of courses being taught more than once, due to courses being delivered in different locations, by different agencies.
In other words, modernise and make more efficient.
Will it work? Dunno - I guess we'll see! Will it be cheaper? Probably not! Does that matter if it's better? Probably not.
In other words, modernise and make more efficient.
Will it work? Dunno - I guess we'll see! Will it be cheaper? Probably not! Does that matter if it's better? Probably not.
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There is absolutley no doubt that MFTS will cost MoD more in the longer term than a conventional procurement solution would have done. It is the same with all PFIs - and a matter of public record (if you look in the right places).
That said, the main reason, above all else, that MoD has gone into these things is the immediate lack of in year cash when the ac and systems needed replacing.......and given what is happening now in national financial matters, it ain't got any better.......so it becomes (sadly) rather irrelevant whether the MFTS system proves better in terms of output quality than a military owned solution....the reality is it is the only game in town.
That said, the main reason, above all else, that MoD has gone into these things is the immediate lack of in year cash when the ac and systems needed replacing.......and given what is happening now in national financial matters, it ain't got any better.......so it becomes (sadly) rather irrelevant whether the MFTS system proves better in terms of output quality than a military owned solution....the reality is it is the only game in town.
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Reading with interest as I have an interview soon. Not a military pilot me, but of military background, been a strawberry a few years now.
Will the Ascent partnership prove more expensive to MoD then if it had gone alone? Of course. These companies (Lockheed Martin & Babcock) exist to make profit for their shareholders, so by definition to my mind that has to make it more expensive then if MoD have gone alone. But MoD doesn't have the capital to do it, but the Ascent partnership does - and it has to make a return on its investment and to pay dividend to it's shareholders. You don't have to read to far on Babcocks website to find the "shareholder" word.
Whether it can deliver, different kettle of fish. Be interesting to see what they make of a civilian FI? This is a very different kettle of fish to Instructing at your average flying club. I met some very talented people in my time in the military, but have met some very talented people in flying outside of it.
As for the long term and where they are going to get the Instructors from, that could prove interesting over the next 25 years. The throughput of ex service pilot's will diminish as the services continue to shrink. In the civilian world far fewer people become FI's these days to build experience because that's not what the airline beancounters want. They want young boys & girls, with access to large amounts of cash to pay for a type rating once they have their CPL issued. Look elsewhere on here and you will hear stories now of ex military pilots who could only get into the airlines now if they paid to fly. Not the case as recently as 5 years ago.
If SDR results in 20% cuts in the Defence Budget as some are predicting then where it leaves the whole PPP could be interesting. Be interesting to know what sort of annual throughput of pilot's being trained Ascent based their figures on? Cut it by 20% and can you make that return on the investment?
Finally somebody gave me an indication (a pleasant one) of what the salary might be. My initial re-action was I could get a whole bunch of low hours FI's from around the south east at the moment who would gladly do it for under half of that to put hours in their logbook. Now start scrowling up through my previous paragraphs and applying that thought.....
Will the Ascent partnership prove more expensive to MoD then if it had gone alone? Of course. These companies (Lockheed Martin & Babcock) exist to make profit for their shareholders, so by definition to my mind that has to make it more expensive then if MoD have gone alone. But MoD doesn't have the capital to do it, but the Ascent partnership does - and it has to make a return on its investment and to pay dividend to it's shareholders. You don't have to read to far on Babcocks website to find the "shareholder" word.
Whether it can deliver, different kettle of fish. Be interesting to see what they make of a civilian FI? This is a very different kettle of fish to Instructing at your average flying club. I met some very talented people in my time in the military, but have met some very talented people in flying outside of it.
As for the long term and where they are going to get the Instructors from, that could prove interesting over the next 25 years. The throughput of ex service pilot's will diminish as the services continue to shrink. In the civilian world far fewer people become FI's these days to build experience because that's not what the airline beancounters want. They want young boys & girls, with access to large amounts of cash to pay for a type rating once they have their CPL issued. Look elsewhere on here and you will hear stories now of ex military pilots who could only get into the airlines now if they paid to fly. Not the case as recently as 5 years ago.
If SDR results in 20% cuts in the Defence Budget as some are predicting then where it leaves the whole PPP could be interesting. Be interesting to know what sort of annual throughput of pilot's being trained Ascent based their figures on? Cut it by 20% and can you make that return on the investment?
Finally somebody gave me an indication (a pleasant one) of what the salary might be. My initial re-action was I could get a whole bunch of low hours FI's from around the south east at the moment who would gladly do it for under half of that to put hours in their logbook. Now start scrowling up through my previous paragraphs and applying that thought.....
As far as Ascent's pilot recruiting is concerned (and these are NOT even QFIs), the following criteria are essential:
As for Ascent's QFIs, as I understand it, they will have to pass assessment at CFS. If you think that
would ever manage that, I think you're sadly mistaken. Believe me - most civil FIs wouldn't last a day!
However,
I agree. That is what I've been saying for many years now....
Knowledge and Experience
Essential
• Current Class 1 medical;
• 2000+ hours PIC, 500+ hours PIC on twin turboprop aircraft;
• Previous military flying experience;
• Previous experience flying in the UK Low Flying System;
• Previous ‘single pilot’ experience;
• Speak fluent English;
• ATPL with current IR;
• Competent in the use of MS Office Applications
Person Specification
• Strong team player;
• Strong oral and written communicator;
• Ability to build internal and external relationships;
• Ability to work with minimal supervision;
• Ability to communicate with customers, peers and senior management;
• Strong work ethic.
Essential
• Current Class 1 medical;
• 2000+ hours PIC, 500+ hours PIC on twin turboprop aircraft;
• Previous military flying experience;
• Previous experience flying in the UK Low Flying System;
• Previous ‘single pilot’ experience;
• Speak fluent English;
• ATPL with current IR;
• Competent in the use of MS Office Applications
Person Specification
• Strong team player;
• Strong oral and written communicator;
• Ability to build internal and external relationships;
• Ability to work with minimal supervision;
• Ability to communicate with customers, peers and senior management;
• Strong work ethic.
...a whole bunch of low hours FI's from around the south east at the moment who would gladly do it for under half of that to put hours in their logbook...
However,
As for the long term and where they are going to get the Instructors from, that could prove interesting over the next 25 years.
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Current Class 1 - got one of them
2000hrs + PIC and 500 PIC multi engine turboprop - not got them
Previous military flying experience - not got that
Previous low flying experience - not got that
Previous single pilot experience - got that
Speak English - yes
ATPL with IR - well fATPL with current IR
Competent is MS Office - yes
Interview - yes! But maybe not for what you are thinking!
Maybe I am wasting my petrol? Or maybe finding people with the above is harder then they thought?
2000hrs + PIC and 500 PIC multi engine turboprop - not got them
Previous military flying experience - not got that
Previous low flying experience - not got that
Previous single pilot experience - got that
Speak English - yes
ATPL with IR - well fATPL with current IR
Competent is MS Office - yes
Interview - yes! But maybe not for what you are thinking!
Maybe I am wasting my petrol? Or maybe finding people with the above is harder then they thought?
Emirates to recruit 700 pilots in next 18 months
Well, it's not as though there's no competition for experienced pilots elsewhere...... Emirates to recruit 700 pilots in next 18 months
Maybe all Ascent will have to choose from will be a few low-hours Cessna heroes...
Maybe all Ascent will have to choose from will be a few low-hours Cessna heroes...
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Option...
If given the option I'd rather sit on a passenger aircraft going somewhere nice than sit behind a military pilot, with minimum flying hours and some sim time going somewhere s**t.
5d2d
5d2d
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And the flying club I have been working at part time for the last few years used to be one of those that ran RAF Cadetship courses. One of the ex cadets from the club is now flying GR4's. All the instructors were civilians, all were checked each year by CFS.
There are some very talented people in civvy street. The forces are not the preserve of talented and skillfull aviators. A friend of mine started as one of the above instructors, went on to fly Twotters for two seasons with British Antartic Survey. Kind of develops skills in navigation, airmanship and captaincy, the kind of things that need instilling in new entry air crew in the military.
Having looked at Ascent website they are looking to "challenge the status quo". The "most civvy FI's wouldn't last a day" kind of attitude is precisely one of the reasons I left in the first place - the "I've been in the service longer then you so I know better" attitude. Does that attitude still prevail?
If you have that kind of attitude in commercial flying these days you won't pass a CRM course and won't get, let alone last a day on the line.
There are some very talented people in civvy street. The forces are not the preserve of talented and skillfull aviators. A friend of mine started as one of the above instructors, went on to fly Twotters for two seasons with British Antartic Survey. Kind of develops skills in navigation, airmanship and captaincy, the kind of things that need instilling in new entry air crew in the military.
Having looked at Ascent website they are looking to "challenge the status quo". The "most civvy FI's wouldn't last a day" kind of attitude is precisely one of the reasons I left in the first place - the "I've been in the service longer then you so I know better" attitude. Does that attitude still prevail?
If you have that kind of attitude in commercial flying these days you won't pass a CRM course and won't get, let alone last a day on the line.
The "most civvy FI's wouldn't last a day" kind of attitude...
I'm also reminded of the experienced ex-BSS pilot who, when doing his 'assessment' trip with some civvy contractor, actually had to take control from the 'assessor' so bad were the assessor's flying standards.
The CFS check for safety in teaching air cadets is nothing like the QFI categorisation scheme.
Last edited by BEagle; 19th Jul 2010 at 12:08.
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Were either of them the ex military gentleman who at of an FIE seminar when his opinion that the correct way to recover from a stall was to apply full power and do nothing with the stick was scoffed? Might work in an F3 mate, but in many other types, it won't!
Actually, that came from a very experienced ex-CFS waterfront bod now working as a FIC examiner. He confided that the average civil FI's' standards were 'shockingly bad'. I was quite surprised by that, but he assured me that it was true.
I'm also reminded of the experienced ex-BSS pilot who, when doing his 'assessment' trip with some civvy contractor, actually had to take control from the 'assessor' so bad were the assessor's flying standards.
The CFS check for safety in teaching air cadets is nothing like the QFI categorisation scheme.
I'm also reminded of the experienced ex-BSS pilot who, when doing his 'assessment' trip with some civvy contractor, actually had to take control from the 'assessor' so bad were the assessor's flying standards.
The CFS check for safety in teaching air cadets is nothing like the QFI categorisation scheme.
You can go on and on with these urban legends. I have heard from a source at Flight Safety that the last person to fail the Citation Mustang type rating course was a former RAF Harrier pilot. I have no idea whether it is true or not, but that is what I was told.
I have also heard from friends who are captains on major airlines that they can always recognise copilots who are ex-mil by their inability to cope with heavy r/t workload, and poor airmanship in a congested controlled airspace. Again, just what I have heard, so don't flame me..
Champagne anyone...?
Wow. Gripping stuff. Unsure of your "don't-flame-me" point other than to reinforce your usual civvy awesome/RAF useless dribble. Good to see you can counter some RAF urban legends with some civvy ones though. Powerful stuff.
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I didn't realise that the Ascent pilots would be instructors. I thought that they would be assessed by Trappers at Culdrose. Is that not the case? Will CFS be driving down to Cornwall once a year to assess the Ascent pilots?
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Trim Stab
Why should they need to pay any more than (say) Cobham pay their King Air pilots?
If you need to ask, you really have very little understanding of military Ops.
KA salaries are not always set by market forces, in deed, where KAs are operated by the military (MFTS), the salary will be influenced by location, job complexity and the nature/quality of the pilots required for the task.
Any monkey can fly a KA from A to B but in this instance, the KA will fly from A to B via F, E, D and C and involve elements of mixed profile (high/medium and Low Level) navigation, possibly time on target, maritime surveilance and procedural work. The pilot will have to react to the student observer's needs, the instructor's needs and maintain good situational awareness while chaos occures around him and that aint easy...believe me.
I have a lot of respect for my civilian counterparts who fly the bucket and spade brigade but one should always be careful when comparing the virtues of two very disimilar flying skillsets.
PCMM
Why should they need to pay any more than (say) Cobham pay their King Air pilots?
If you need to ask, you really have very little understanding of military Ops.
KA salaries are not always set by market forces, in deed, where KAs are operated by the military (MFTS), the salary will be influenced by location, job complexity and the nature/quality of the pilots required for the task.
Any monkey can fly a KA from A to B but in this instance, the KA will fly from A to B via F, E, D and C and involve elements of mixed profile (high/medium and Low Level) navigation, possibly time on target, maritime surveilance and procedural work. The pilot will have to react to the student observer's needs, the instructor's needs and maintain good situational awareness while chaos occures around him and that aint easy...believe me.
I have a lot of respect for my civilian counterparts who fly the bucket and spade brigade but one should always be careful when comparing the virtues of two very disimilar flying skillsets.
PCMM
KA salaries are not always set by market forces, in deed, where KAs are operated by the military (MFTS), the salary will be influenced by location, job complexity and the nature/quality of the pilots required for the task.
Ascent will not need to pay them the same salary that a civvy turboprop captain earns (as Beagle and others claimed) because ex-mil pilots would not be able to walk straight into a captain's job on a civvy turboprop. Nor would a civilian turboprop captain be considered for a job with Ascent - as you say it is the wrong sort of experience.
Ascent will get plenty of takers from ex-mil aircrew who would prefer to fly as captain on an Ascent KA than start as a co-pilot on a civilian fleet.
RAF useless dribble
