Saville report
Hovering AND talking
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A stitch up? How else would you like to account for 13 civilian deaths and 14 seriously injured by British military bullets; some of which were in the back?
Didn't Widgery give the "other side"?
Cheers
Whirls
Didn't Widgery give the "other side"?
Cheers
Whirls
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whirls
what were the IRA doing? who fired the thompson SMG shots?
did they knowingly bait the british army? and lead innocent civilians into a trap?
non of that excuses their deaths in any way, but if the IRA played a role in the events of that day we should know
we don't know as mcguiness and co said they couldn't give evidence due to the IRA's "code of honour" and it was left at that
like I said one sided stitch-up
what were the IRA doing? who fired the thompson SMG shots?
did they knowingly bait the british army? and lead innocent civilians into a trap?
non of that excuses their deaths in any way, but if the IRA played a role in the events of that day we should know
we don't know as mcguiness and co said they couldn't give evidence due to the IRA's "code of honour" and it was left at that
like I said one sided stitch-up
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sorry its all part of the appeasment process sorry peace process. Bend over backwards to please the republicans and dump all over the unionists.
Living in Northern Ireland when Saville set up it was fairly common knowledge on the eve of the first hearing what the outcome was going to be. Its another white wash. the Truth is somewhere between widgery and saville. But unless the report came up with this conclusion the relatives would reject it. I think the only bit that was left out of their version and saville was state colusion.
Living in Northern Ireland when Saville set up it was fairly common knowledge on the eve of the first hearing what the outcome was going to be. Its another white wash. the Truth is somewhere between widgery and saville. But unless the report came up with this conclusion the relatives would reject it. I think the only bit that was left out of their version and saville was state colusion.
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Do the Paras have 'frightened young squaddies' among their ranks?
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Getting back to context, it has to be remembered that this event was probably the main catalyst for 20+ years of troubles, including many/most/all of the subsequent murders on both sides. The lesson that needed to be learnt was that putting the military on the streets in order to manage/control the civilian population was the wrong thing. Mixing armed soldiers with a dissenting population is always a dangerous scenario.
I don't believe this one incident was the main catalyst for the following 30 years or so. The province was rapidly falling into mass civil disorder with famlies being burnt out of their homes, republican and loyalist gangs asserting their power on the populus with violence whlst at the same time engaging in vicious internal power struggles within resulting in no clear direction from their own hierarchy. Perversely, McGunness was in control at the time, his role never fully explained on that day, however, the Saville report does accept there was OIRA sniper activity.
Bloody Sunday is oft quoted as a justification for the republican cause, the reality I'm afraid is a catalogue of reasons. Internment without trial. Op Motorman. Armoured cars patrolling your street. B Specials. Miami Showband. Power struggles. Money. I can go on, the issue is that these people died at the hands of Government Agents and as such, the Government has to be held to account, trying to draw parrallells with IRA deeds is apples and pears, two completely different issues. They still have to atone for ordering 10 of their members to starve themselves to death, for disappearing Jean McConville, for countles atrocities upon their own let alone soldiers, policemen and civilians and no, there will not be an enquiry because they will not accede to investigation. They are not a tool of Government and therefore have the luxury of being answerable only to themselves.
The reports failings are it's success. 12 years and nearly £200M, there is no appetite for another enquiry covering this or any other part of "The Troubles". To steal from the Daily Telegraph, court action against the soldiers is unlikely because of the comprehensiveness of the report in the chain of events but its refusal to categorically state which soldier fired which shot that killed which civilian but uses probable, possible and likeley. It would be impossible for a conviction due to the amount of information in the public domain would prevent a free and fair trial. I honestly believe it would serve no further purpose than to further line the pockets of ambulance chasing lawyers.
I also think that the PM has handled this in the correct manner.....mind you, he has had a long time to prepare his statement to the house.
SL
Bloody Sunday is oft quoted as a justification for the republican cause, the reality I'm afraid is a catalogue of reasons. Internment without trial. Op Motorman. Armoured cars patrolling your street. B Specials. Miami Showband. Power struggles. Money. I can go on, the issue is that these people died at the hands of Government Agents and as such, the Government has to be held to account, trying to draw parrallells with IRA deeds is apples and pears, two completely different issues. They still have to atone for ordering 10 of their members to starve themselves to death, for disappearing Jean McConville, for countles atrocities upon their own let alone soldiers, policemen and civilians and no, there will not be an enquiry because they will not accede to investigation. They are not a tool of Government and therefore have the luxury of being answerable only to themselves.
The reports failings are it's success. 12 years and nearly £200M, there is no appetite for another enquiry covering this or any other part of "The Troubles". To steal from the Daily Telegraph, court action against the soldiers is unlikely because of the comprehensiveness of the report in the chain of events but its refusal to categorically state which soldier fired which shot that killed which civilian but uses probable, possible and likeley. It would be impossible for a conviction due to the amount of information in the public domain would prevent a free and fair trial. I honestly believe it would serve no further purpose than to further line the pockets of ambulance chasing lawyers.
I also think that the PM has handled this in the correct manner.....mind you, he has had a long time to prepare his statement to the house.
SL
Last edited by Sloppy Link; 16th Jun 2010 at 07:19. Reason: Typo
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Peace Agreement
Correct me if I am wrong.
I thought that all incidents/ killings/ crimes committed prior to the agreement were closed.
The police no longer pursue PIRA and UVF killers from that period.
Why should the PIRA and their supporters ask the police to investigate soldiers, who forty years ago, "may" have committed an offence.
I thought that all incidents/ killings/ crimes committed prior to the agreement were closed.
The police no longer pursue PIRA and UVF killers from that period.
Why should the PIRA and their supporters ask the police to investigate soldiers, who forty years ago, "may" have committed an offence.
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The police no longer pursue PIRA and UVF killers from that period.
Why should the PIRA and their supporters ask the police to investigate soldiers, who forty years ago, "may" have committed an offence
Why should the PIRA and their supporters ask the police to investigate soldiers, who forty years ago, "may" have committed an offence
Tester 76, Mustafa,
Sadly I think you are right. Though, Mustafa, some of us are grateful for the efforts of folk like you.
The perfect hindsight mob are always around.
Lawyers and judges can sit in peaceful safety and pontificate at length. Having been given strong & biased direction by politicians who have little interest in truth, more in convenience, it's not surprising the results are somewhat unbelievable. In Britain very few enquiries ever seriously challenge the 'establishment' view.
Clearly, this is a whitewash. As such, low in believability. I am not so naive as to assume a 'learned judge' is any less fallible or distorted in his viewpoint than anyone else. They start with bias too. Few sensible folk will take any other view of this.
The truth, I am sure, actually lies somewhere between this rather silly whitewash and the early stories from the Army at the time. A mixture of innocents and bad hats out to cause trouble, plus some rather worried and frightened folk. On both sides. A recipe for trouble.
My recollection of the views of various Northern Irish acquaintances before and after Bloody Sunday doesn't match with what this report talks about. For far too many, a life of simmering malevolent hatred for their perceived opponents that chilled me then.
Having very recently been back, visiting the border areas, it chills me still. 'Peace' now yes, but a watchful, unsettled distrustful one. I doubt that much has changed, beneath the surface, yet. The politicos may feel this, at great expense, gives 'closure' and allows things to move on, improve.
They may be right. In my experience politicians seldom are.
Sadly I think you are right. Though, Mustafa, some of us are grateful for the efforts of folk like you.
The perfect hindsight mob are always around.
Lawyers and judges can sit in peaceful safety and pontificate at length. Having been given strong & biased direction by politicians who have little interest in truth, more in convenience, it's not surprising the results are somewhat unbelievable. In Britain very few enquiries ever seriously challenge the 'establishment' view.
Clearly, this is a whitewash. As such, low in believability. I am not so naive as to assume a 'learned judge' is any less fallible or distorted in his viewpoint than anyone else. They start with bias too. Few sensible folk will take any other view of this.
The truth, I am sure, actually lies somewhere between this rather silly whitewash and the early stories from the Army at the time. A mixture of innocents and bad hats out to cause trouble, plus some rather worried and frightened folk. On both sides. A recipe for trouble.
My recollection of the views of various Northern Irish acquaintances before and after Bloody Sunday doesn't match with what this report talks about. For far too many, a life of simmering malevolent hatred for their perceived opponents that chilled me then.
Having very recently been back, visiting the border areas, it chills me still. 'Peace' now yes, but a watchful, unsettled distrustful one. I doubt that much has changed, beneath the surface, yet. The politicos may feel this, at great expense, gives 'closure' and allows things to move on, improve.
They may be right. In my experience politicians seldom are.
Last edited by biscuit74; 16th Jun 2010 at 13:31.
Mostafa
Why? I assume you're referring to service in the province. Did you do a ****e job when on duty? I bet not. Why was it a waste? Just interested.
CG
Wrote a note in my diary yesterday it simply said
"Well that confirms it - 30 years of my life completely wasted"
"Well that confirms it - 30 years of my life completely wasted"
CG
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It's getting like the middle east, and to be honest i just can't be bothered to talk or listen about it anymore. I'm sure if my relatives had been killed that day, yesterday would have, and lets be honest a momentous day.
But life is going to move on regardless of all those living in the past with either their terrible memories, or their vested interests in keeping this period afloat.
Anyway.....
YouTube - Alan Partridge - Sunday Bloody Sunday
But life is going to move on regardless of all those living in the past with either their terrible memories, or their vested interests in keeping this period afloat.
Anyway.....
YouTube - Alan Partridge - Sunday Bloody Sunday
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It's getting like the middle east
/ Harp
would be enough. Plus once you gave them the kegs and they'd done the job, there would be some kegs left for the next big one (Green terrorism at its best)
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Tester_76
And there has to be one rule for them and one for us. That is what separates civilized societies who attempt to obey the rule of law from the terrorists.
This enquiry was to find out what happened when that attempt broke down.
And there has to be one rule for them and one for us. That is what separates civilized societies who attempt to obey the rule of law from the terrorists.
This enquiry was to find out what happened when that attempt broke down.
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Correct me if I am wrong.
I thought that all incidents/ killings/ crimes committed prior to the agreement were closed.
I thought that all incidents/ killings/ crimes committed prior to the agreement were closed.
The PSNI have a Historical Enquiries Team.
The Historical Enquiries Team is to examine all deaths attributed to ‘The Troubles’ from January 1969 to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998; this equates to 3235 deaths from 2538 incidents.
EG
EG
Gentleman Aviator
The PSNI have a Historical Enquiries Team.
Think we need to put the event into historical context as to where troops had been on operations in the preceding years which could explain mindset and procedures. Hadnt long finished a bloody war in places like Aden , so to put a combat outfit into a civil environment was very difficult. You can see that lessons were learned , which obviously doesnt help those who lost family. Hopefully it will allow people to move on , although some never will. Very difficult judging events from 38 years ago by modern standards , bit unfair to those there on the day as with hindsight i'm sure a lot of them might have acted differently. Unfortunately its being hijacked by various groups for political ends.
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... that would be the same PSNI whose Superintendants, unlike those of any other UK Police Force/Service, wear a star rather than a Crown, lest the Crown be offensive to some of the UK citizens in NI ........
Thats the one and I'm glad I'm now out of it, most of the new ones couldn't find their own arse with both hands, now the lowest clearup rate in the UK as opposed to the highest when it was a real "Royal" police force.
Thats the one and I'm glad I'm now out of it, most of the new ones couldn't find their own arse with both hands, now the lowest clearup rate in the UK as opposed to the highest when it was a real "Royal" police force.