Do we need an Independant Nuclear Deterrant?
It grates on me too....
Overseas aid should pay for military expeditionary activity, rather than it being funded from the defence budget.
If the Tornado fleet is retired, probably the only non-USAF aircraft in the UK capable of nuclear strike will be XH558 until the Nimrod Y2K is in service...
Overseas aid should pay for military expeditionary activity, rather than it being funded from the defence budget.
If the Tornado fleet is retired, probably the only non-USAF aircraft in the UK capable of nuclear strike will be XH558 until the Nimrod Y2K is in service...
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Civvie (annoyingly logical) perspective....
For a 'deterrent' to be effective the threat of its use must deter the aggressor. Unfortunately it seems we still have a myopic/westernised perspective of live vs death and don't yet fully appreciate that some nations don't share this same philosophy - case in point security designed to prevent bombing on an aeroplane assumes that a bomber wouldn't carry a device onto an aeroplane that they're flying on...as they'd risk killing themselves. We're now aware that this paradigm no longer applies and that, for some, martyrdom appeals (and yet we still do matching of baggage to passengers).
If a nation isn't threatened by the idea of retaliation, then it's no longer a deterrent....
For a 'deterrent' to be effective the threat of its use must deter the aggressor. Unfortunately it seems we still have a myopic/westernised perspective of live vs death and don't yet fully appreciate that some nations don't share this same philosophy - case in point security designed to prevent bombing on an aeroplane assumes that a bomber wouldn't carry a device onto an aeroplane that they're flying on...as they'd risk killing themselves. We're now aware that this paradigm no longer applies and that, for some, martyrdom appeals (and yet we still do matching of baggage to passengers).
If a nation isn't threatened by the idea of retaliation, then it's no longer a deterrent....
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gpn, you are right to a point. The airline baggage issue is of course quite correct.
What you overlook though is that a willingness to die does not permeate the whole terrorist organisation. The leadership has not been noted for its willingness to say 'follow me.'
What you overlook though is that a willingness to die does not permeate the whole terrorist organisation. The leadership has not been noted for its willingness to say 'follow me.'
All I can add is my utterly unqualified civvy support to what I presume is the RAF position on this.
OK, the fact that we think it won't be used is not a good reason to lose a capability. That said, in a situation where people are seriously discussing dumping the entire Tornado GR fleet to save 7.5bn, it seems utterly insane to countenance spending 20bn on nukes. Sorry, Navy people, I am not in the RAF so I don't automatically hate you, but that is just not sanity.
Why wouldn't we ditch Trident, keep Tornado, and still have 12.5bn to give back to the MoD in savings? In whose brain is this not an obviously superior result?
P
OK, the fact that we think it won't be used is not a good reason to lose a capability. That said, in a situation where people are seriously discussing dumping the entire Tornado GR fleet to save 7.5bn, it seems utterly insane to countenance spending 20bn on nukes. Sorry, Navy people, I am not in the RAF so I don't automatically hate you, but that is just not sanity.
Why wouldn't we ditch Trident, keep Tornado, and still have 12.5bn to give back to the MoD in savings? In whose brain is this not an obviously superior result?
P
Why wouldn't we ditch Trident, keep Tornado, and still have 12.5bn to give back to the MoD in savings? In whose brain is this not an obviously superior result?
I'm not sure that's necessarily the case, anwyay, is it? I understood the security council was drawn from the victors of WWII, and the fact that they happened to be the only pre-67 nuclear weapons states was largely coincidental.
Happy to be corrected though, or told to go away from the aircrew forum where I am at best a hangar on
P
Happy to be corrected though, or told to go away from the aircrew forum where I am at best a hangar on
P
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Once upon a time, the Queen`s Navee used to ensure that the seas were open to law abiding nations to carry out their legal trade. It had the capability to defend itself, and land light expeditionary forces in order to sort out The Natives, or Johnny Foreigner when neccessary. The Continentals were left to sort things out between themselves.
That system seems to have worked fairly well for a long time. Perhaps it is time to forget the top table and return to basics.
That system seems to have worked fairly well for a long time. Perhaps it is time to forget the top table and return to basics.
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So the MOD has to fund the next nuclear deterrent from their own budget, cost 20£Bn.
To fund the purchase why not let the MOD sell the existing nuclear deterrent second hand; one careful owner, low milage, kept in garage etc?
To fund the purchase why not let the MOD sell the existing nuclear deterrent second hand; one careful owner, low milage, kept in garage etc?
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As for 'knocking of on Friday' the RAF worked Saturdays at that time!! The '5 day week' was introduced as a fuel saving measure after 'the Suez Crises'.
Prior to Suez a weekend '48' was a once a month afair.
Prior to Suez a weekend '48' was a once a month afair.
I do not think there is an explicit link between membership of the permanent 5 of the SC & the posession of N weapons.
Fortunately possession of nuclear weapons doesn't automatically give you a seat at the table. Mind you, it would be fun if it did. Imagine, wee Kim Il Jong, ArmouredDinnerJacket, the Pakistani pres, Netanyahu etc all at the same table. Would be like the opening scene in The Naked Gun II.
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What you overlook though is that a willingness to die does not permeate the whole terrorist organisation. The leadership has not been noted for its willingness to say 'follow me.'
The boss and the planning officer.
Our removal from the P5 would require a resolution of the Security Council. Which we would veto. Why would we possibly vote for our own removal? Possession of nuclear weapons is a red herring.
As regards the rest of the Navy's role, they would do well to stop angling towards becoming a floating air force, and focus on their core 'control of the sea' stuff.
As regards the rest of the Navy's role, they would do well to stop angling towards becoming a floating air force, and focus on their core 'control of the sea' stuff.
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Call their bluff. If they want the instant sunshine to come out the defence budget, just say no, the money would be better spent on other defence related items. See then if the government would be willing to lose their penis extension.
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ES, while 2/3rds of the World is covered by water it is a fact that all of it is covered by air and from the air comes a threat that can only be met from the air, viz Bismark, Repulse and Prince of Wales etc etc.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The 'few' in the know are, by now, several thousands as many of the early ones will have retired.
It may still be a bluff but an expensive one as every single nut and bolt has to be real.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Captain, that did occur to me. As I said though, having been concerned with buckets of sunshine I know we did carry a few tons of scrap iron as well as the payload. All the better to irradiate you with.