Oldest RAF squadron??
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Oldest RAF squadron??
Can anyone settle a pub discussion? Which is the oldest RAF squadron? I don't want hearsay, or conjecture, it needs to be backed up 'with ya actual fact'.
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No. 1(Fighter) Squadron predates the Royal Flying Corps with its origins in No 1 Balloon Company of the Royal Engineers in 1878. It became the No 1 Squadron of the Royal Flying Corps in 1912 and upgraded to aircraft in 1914.
2, 3 and 4 Sqns all formed with fixed wing aircraft in 1912.
Thassall I know.
2, 3 and 4 Sqns all formed with fixed wing aircraft in 1912.
Thassall I know.
Do you mean oldest or 'most senior', because there's a difference....
The oldest RAF squadron is actually.... three squadrons, because they were formed on the same day, 13 May 1912 - 1(F), II(AC) and 3(F). Source? Various, but go with Jeff Jefford's 'Bible' of RAF Squadrons.
The most senior squadron (source - AHB lists of squadron seniority from 1968 and 1973) is II(AC). Although the sources stated there are 42 and 37 years old respectively, the method of calculating seniority has not changed, and as the top half dozen squadrons at the top of the list (in order, II, 1, 6, 4, 14, 8) have remained extant since those lists were drawn up, the pecking order has not changed.
Edit - Wholi - 2 and 3 were created by renumbering No 2 (Aeroplane) Company of the RE and splitting the assets between the two new formations at the same time as 1 was formed from 1 (Airship) Company, RE; this, of course, was the result of the RFC coming into existence and taking over the RE's assets.
The oldest RAF squadron is actually.... three squadrons, because they were formed on the same day, 13 May 1912 - 1(F), II(AC) and 3(F). Source? Various, but go with Jeff Jefford's 'Bible' of RAF Squadrons.
The most senior squadron (source - AHB lists of squadron seniority from 1968 and 1973) is II(AC). Although the sources stated there are 42 and 37 years old respectively, the method of calculating seniority has not changed, and as the top half dozen squadrons at the top of the list (in order, II, 1, 6, 4, 14, 8) have remained extant since those lists were drawn up, the pecking order has not changed.
Edit - Wholi - 2 and 3 were created by renumbering No 2 (Aeroplane) Company of the RE and splitting the assets between the two new formations at the same time as 1 was formed from 1 (Airship) Company, RE; this, of course, was the result of the RFC coming into existence and taking over the RE's assets.
No. 1(Fighter) Squadron predates the Royal Flying Corps with its origins in No 1 Balloon Company of the Royal Engineers in 1878. It became the No 1 Squadron of the Royal Flying Corps in 1912 and upgraded to aircraft in 1914.
Not too sure if it's an "upgrade" or a "downgrade" to the Harrier, though???
Archimedes,
6 Sqn has been disbanded since the Jag force died in May 2007. If the Sqn stands up again later this year, would 3 years "off" be enough for 4, 14 or 8 to overtake it?
as the top half dozen squadrons at the top of the list (in order, II, 1, 6, 4, 14, 8) have remained extant since those lists were drawn up, the pecking order has not changed.
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just to play devils advocate (ie I'm bored). The RAF was formed on the First of April 1918, agreed. Does that not make all the squadrons in existance, on that date, as old/senior as each other?
Told you I was bored
Told you I was bored
Bother - beaten to my edit when I had the 'hang on, 6 has disbanded' thought.
The answer is that it is possible that IV will overtake 6, but, don an anorak for a moment and let me explain why this might not happen...
...the problem is that when the AHB did the squadron seniority rankings in the late 1950s (to work out which numberplates went after Sandys slashed the RAF's strength) weightings were applied to cover peacetime service and operational service, and this may have carried over into the 1968 rankings. It had been assumed that the 1968 rankings were most likely done purely on accumulated service, but it seems that 43 Squadron appears lower on the list than it should do if accumulated service were the only metric applied. This could be nothing more than a mathematical error, or it could be a hint of how the 1968/73 order of seniority was drawn up. But we don't know.
So 6 losing 3 years between the Jag and Typhoon may push IV and 14 above it, but I suspect possibly not 8.
But - did 6 actually disband?
'Of course it did!' I hear you cry, 'There was a disbandment parade.'
Indeed there was. But... since 6 was already declared as the third Typhoon squadron numberplate at the time of the Jag's retirement, there is a case for saying that 6 didn't disband - whatever anyone who was at the disbandment parade may have thought - but in fact was reduced to number plate only status, since the number plate had already been allocated to a squadron, even though that squadron didn't have any aeroplanes or personnel...
I'll ask the head of the AHB what the actual answer to that is next time I see him, which will delight him, I'm sure.
TD - no it doesn't; the calculation begins with formation as an RFC or RNAS squadron. And you probably realised that you weren't really as bored as you thought until you read the above ....
The answer is that it is possible that IV will overtake 6, but, don an anorak for a moment and let me explain why this might not happen...
...the problem is that when the AHB did the squadron seniority rankings in the late 1950s (to work out which numberplates went after Sandys slashed the RAF's strength) weightings were applied to cover peacetime service and operational service, and this may have carried over into the 1968 rankings. It had been assumed that the 1968 rankings were most likely done purely on accumulated service, but it seems that 43 Squadron appears lower on the list than it should do if accumulated service were the only metric applied. This could be nothing more than a mathematical error, or it could be a hint of how the 1968/73 order of seniority was drawn up. But we don't know.
So 6 losing 3 years between the Jag and Typhoon may push IV and 14 above it, but I suspect possibly not 8.
But - did 6 actually disband?
'Of course it did!' I hear you cry, 'There was a disbandment parade.'
Indeed there was. But... since 6 was already declared as the third Typhoon squadron numberplate at the time of the Jag's retirement, there is a case for saying that 6 didn't disband - whatever anyone who was at the disbandment parade may have thought - but in fact was reduced to number plate only status, since the number plate had already been allocated to a squadron, even though that squadron didn't have any aeroplanes or personnel...
I'll ask the head of the AHB what the actual answer to that is next time I see him, which will delight him, I'm sure.
TD - no it doesn't; the calculation begins with formation as an RFC or RNAS squadron. And you probably realised that you weren't really as bored as you thought until you read the above ....
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Wow, good stuff, Archimedes, good stuff. You don't, by any chance, write Ministerial Answers as a side line? (joke).
But, this time with pedants head on, Galley Teapot's original post framed the question Which is the oldest RAF squadron? (my bold). Not RE, RNAS or RFC but RAF. And as the RAF formed on the 1st of April 1918, I stand by my original submission.
I would certainly throw that submission into the answer pot in Galley's pub and then step back and watch the ensuing bar fight!!
Regards
But, this time with pedants head on, Galley Teapot's original post framed the question Which is the oldest RAF squadron? (my bold). Not RE, RNAS or RFC but RAF. And as the RAF formed on the 1st of April 1918, I stand by my original submission.
I would certainly throw that submission into the answer pot in Galley's pub and then step back and watch the ensuing bar fight!!
Regards
IIRC Odiham was opened in 1937 by a nice German chap. Waddington has been around since around 1916.
Which will be the one base left for:
Air Defence
Helicopters
Transport/Tankers
Training
Which will be the one base left for:
Air Defence
Helicopters
Transport/Tankers
Training
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Oldest Airfield?
Not sure about Odiham's history but surely Leuchars is in with a shout: military aviation on site from 1911 (balloons); then work started in 1916 to make an airfield for an RNAS base and finally RAF from March 1920.
Cranwell must be up there too - the rest are nearly all 1930's upstarts!
Cranwell must be up there too - the rest are nearly all 1930's upstarts!
I have always believed it to be Netheravon. Still has an active runway for Military use......well, to be honest, MW use it as a relief training field and there is the sports parachutists but hey, it is still in the ERS. The Officers Mess still sports a set of RFC wings over the front entrance.
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"...the calculation begins with formation as an RFC or RNAS squadron..."
While it may be true that some RAF squadrons had their origins in either the Army or the RN, surely XYZ Sqn RAF cannot be any older than April Fools' Day, 1918?
Otherwise, for example, the Cdo gunners & loggies could say they were much older than they are, since the RM have had gunners and loggies since they were formed.
Oldest mil airfield - does Qinetiq count? Farnborough.
Does intermediate ownership count? - Upavon.
While it may be true that some RAF squadrons had their origins in either the Army or the RN, surely XYZ Sqn RAF cannot be any older than April Fools' Day, 1918?
Otherwise, for example, the Cdo gunners & loggies could say they were much older than they are, since the RM have had gunners and loggies since they were formed.
Oldest mil airfield - does Qinetiq count? Farnborough.
Does intermediate ownership count? - Upavon.
Roadster - the reason the RFC and the RNAS are counted towards squadron service is because of the precedent of antecedant units being counted. The squadrons didn't all form on 1 April 1918 - they existed and simply changed their arm of service to RAF rather than RFC.
Strictly speaking, of course, you're correct - as there was no RAF until 1 April 1918, then all the squadrons extant at 0000 that day are the oldest RAF squadrons, making the original question meaningless.
The answer to the original poster is then along the lines of 'every one on the current ORBAT bar 617' which doesn't win the wager for either party...
Strictly speaking, of course, you're correct - as there was no RAF until 1 April 1918, then all the squadrons extant at 0000 that day are the oldest RAF squadrons, making the original question meaningless.
The answer to the original poster is then along the lines of 'every one on the current ORBAT bar 617' which doesn't win the wager for either party...
