Bombing Germany
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A simple point that is so often and easily overlooked is that modern warfare is waged by the use of machines. It would seem wholly reasonable, then, for those machines and their means of production/repair to be legitimate targets. The workers are part of that industrial process.
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Although the policy of both sides might have been to avoid bombing civilians, sooner or later the "accident" was bound to happen (given the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and knowing how inaccurate bombing actually was).
The move to area bombing was probably an inevitable consequence, however unpleasant.
From the perspective of that time, no-one knew Germany would lose the war. The Allied version of "total war" was the only response. Despite having a just cause, the Allies were not guaranteed to win. Holding the moral high ground is scant comfort when waving a white flag.
The move to area bombing was probably an inevitable consequence, however unpleasant.
From the perspective of that time, no-one knew Germany would lose the war. The Allied version of "total war" was the only response. Despite having a just cause, the Allies were not guaranteed to win. Holding the moral high ground is scant comfort when waving a white flag.
To the winner go the spoils.....and the ability to write the rules and history.
A I agree with the two posts preceeding this one....can we safely say Nuclear War is unavoidable. At some point one side sees itself losing then all Hell breaks loose?
A I agree with the two posts preceeding this one....can we safely say Nuclear War is unavoidable. At some point one side sees itself losing then all Hell breaks loose?
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Area Bombing
The raison d'etre of the inter war RAF was strategic bombing. Lord Trenchard Hugh Trenchard, 1st Viscount Trenchard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia had made this the main RAF strategy and to gain high office on the Air Staff one had to be 'Trenchardian' - Portal and Harris were. However, early in WWII after disastrous daytime raids by Blenheims and Battles the RAF had to shift to night bombing. Surprisingly, the RAF was ill prepared for this new tactic and most night bombers missed their targets. The strategy was then changed to area bombing of cities, a target even the RAF couldn't miss and very 'Trenchardian'. Harris - a Trenchard man to the core - was both obstinate and blinkered in his use of Bomber Command; as the war progressed and avionics and bomb sites improved the weight of Bommber Command could have been shifted over to military/oil/munitions targets and away from the cities. Harris should have been sacked after the failure of his Berlin offensive in 1943/44.
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To the winner go the spoils.....and the ability to write the rules and history.
the weight of Bommber Command could have been shifted over to military/oil/munitions targets
Could the Allied bomber force have operated effectively against military targets? Were any studies carried out at the time or was it a case of carrying on as before with the tools available.
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Up until 1944ish Bomber Command had the reason to attack cities but not really the means to do any considerable damage.
After 1944 they had the means to destroy cities but the strategic imperative had largely disappeared (with the invasion).
But given the massive investment in bombing (something like 1/3 of the total British industrial war effort), the course was set.
After 1944 they had the means to destroy cities but the strategic imperative had largely disappeared (with the invasion).
But given the massive investment in bombing (something like 1/3 of the total British industrial war effort), the course was set.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Of course that was a total failure as was evidenced by the blitz. The fear of bombardment soon gives way to a philosophical acceptance especially when the reality is less than the fear. "Shock and Awe" showed Iraqi citizens moving around Bagdad regardless of the precision destruction of targets all around - blaze you might say. Even the devastation of Hamburg probably only had a localised effect on the population as a whole.
Could the Allied bomber force have operated effectively against military targets? Were any studies carried out at the time or was it a case of carrying on as before with the tools available.
He certainly believed in Concentration of Force.
Air pig
The first use of concentration camps was by the Spanish in Cuba 1896. 200,000 dead est.
Its a little boring to see the British get the blame yet again for the invention. Not to say that the running of them by the British in South Africa was anything short of a tragedy
The German use of forced labour started in the early 1900's in German South West Africa where preprinted death certificates had cause of death "exhaustion" on them. Saved on the old hand writing. Concentration camps were also used by the Germans a precurser to the Nazi era and a source of embarrassment to Germans who claim that the excesses of the 30's and 40's were a purely Nazi aberration.
The German activities were also recorded as the first genocide of the 20th century a fact the German goverment apologised for in 2004.
The first use of concentration camps was by the Spanish in Cuba 1896. 200,000 dead est.
Its a little boring to see the British get the blame yet again for the invention. Not to say that the running of them by the British in South Africa was anything short of a tragedy
The German use of forced labour started in the early 1900's in German South West Africa where preprinted death certificates had cause of death "exhaustion" on them. Saved on the old hand writing. Concentration camps were also used by the Germans a precurser to the Nazi era and a source of embarrassment to Germans who claim that the excesses of the 30's and 40's were a purely Nazi aberration.
The German activities were also recorded as the first genocide of the 20th century a fact the German goverment apologised for in 2004.
Last edited by ericferret; 9th Feb 2010 at 08:35.
SARowl,
Must disagree with you there - by far the prime role of the inter-war RAF was "Air Control", or "Policing the Empire" as it's usually called. It was this role that secured the future of the RAF in lean economic times, as the Government perceived that one or two squadrons of biplanes could police the same area as two or three divisions of troops. There is plenty more on Air Control on the internet but I suggest the following link (not the most neutral source but there you go):
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...8C2DA98948.pdf
To be sure, Trenchard did advocate strategic bombing, and he intended to build up a large force of suitable aircraft. However, financial constraints prevented this and the bomber fleet didn't amount to much until rearmament began in the mid-1930s.
On a vaguely related note, I found it quite interesting to list the tasks facing the RAF in the inter-war period; see what you think is different today:
Policing the Empire
Small number of attack aircraft patrol large areas of Iraq and Afghanistan to bomb belligerent locals. Transport aircraft lift troops to troublespots. Armoured car units provide RAF-badged ground troops for base defence.
Homeland Defence
Fighters ready to repel airborne attack against home territory. Army leadership not convinced that there's much of a threat.
Displays and Record Attempts
Enormous airshows (e.g. Hendon) conducted to ignite public enthusiasm for the RAF. Altitude and speed records broken, again capturing the public imagination, culminating in the retention of the Schneider trophy.
Development of Strategic Bombing
Limited number of bombing squadrons assembled despite budgetary pressure in an attempt to demonstrate the wider potential of air power. Not much progress in doctrinal or technological terms until rogue foreign leader's intentions became clear and funding suddenly appears.
Fleet Air Arm of the RAF
RAF personnel flying RAF aircraft from RN carriers. RN annoyed at lack of control of the air assets, and the fact that the RAF puts a low priority on naval aviation. RN trying desperately to get its own air arm back (eventually succeeding).
Survival as Independent Service
Ongoing pitched battles with RN and Army, with the 2 senior services making all the noise. Survived by skin of teeth thanks to thoughtful leadership of Trenchard.
If you substitute the Reds and BBMF for the record attempts and Schneider trophy, I think you've got today's RAF pretty much there - noting that we are about to return lacking a maritime patrol capability! Who can we substitute for Trenchard, though?
The raison d'etre of the inter war RAF was strategic bombing. Lord Trenchard Hugh Trenchard, 1st Viscount Trenchard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia had made this the main RAF strategy
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...8C2DA98948.pdf
To be sure, Trenchard did advocate strategic bombing, and he intended to build up a large force of suitable aircraft. However, financial constraints prevented this and the bomber fleet didn't amount to much until rearmament began in the mid-1930s.
On a vaguely related note, I found it quite interesting to list the tasks facing the RAF in the inter-war period; see what you think is different today:
Policing the Empire
Small number of attack aircraft patrol large areas of Iraq and Afghanistan to bomb belligerent locals. Transport aircraft lift troops to troublespots. Armoured car units provide RAF-badged ground troops for base defence.
Homeland Defence
Fighters ready to repel airborne attack against home territory. Army leadership not convinced that there's much of a threat.
Displays and Record Attempts
Enormous airshows (e.g. Hendon) conducted to ignite public enthusiasm for the RAF. Altitude and speed records broken, again capturing the public imagination, culminating in the retention of the Schneider trophy.
Development of Strategic Bombing
Limited number of bombing squadrons assembled despite budgetary pressure in an attempt to demonstrate the wider potential of air power. Not much progress in doctrinal or technological terms until rogue foreign leader's intentions became clear and funding suddenly appears.
Fleet Air Arm of the RAF
RAF personnel flying RAF aircraft from RN carriers. RN annoyed at lack of control of the air assets, and the fact that the RAF puts a low priority on naval aviation. RN trying desperately to get its own air arm back (eventually succeeding).
Survival as Independent Service
Ongoing pitched battles with RN and Army, with the 2 senior services making all the noise. Survived by skin of teeth thanks to thoughtful leadership of Trenchard.
If you substitute the Reds and BBMF for the record attempts and Schneider trophy, I think you've got today's RAF pretty much there - noting that we are about to return lacking a maritime patrol capability! Who can we substitute for Trenchard, though?
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Originally Posted by SARowl
as the war progressed and avionics and bomb sites improved
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What was the perceived benefit of bombing cities??
How about the hundreds of thousands of 88mm guns that were taken from the battlefields of Europe and used to defend the cities. Imagine the many millions of more casualties there would have been on the ground, of Allies in the east and the west, had these guns been trained on the advancing armies.
How about the hundreds of thousands of 88mm guns that were taken from the battlefields of Europe and used to defend the cities. Imagine the many millions of more casualties there would have been on the ground, of Allies in the east and the west, had these guns been trained on the advancing armies.
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I am a member of the post-war generation and it has been my priviledge to know quite a number of Bomber Command veterans who with the passage of time get fewer and fewer. I can only quote the American General Patton who at the funeral oration to some of his soldiers said " Do not mourn these men, just thank God that such men lived"
I just thank God that I have lived in peace due to the efforts and sacrifice of the men of Bomber Command.
Tony Fallows
I just thank God that I have lived in peace due to the efforts and sacrifice of the men of Bomber Command.
Tony Fallows
