Bombing Germany
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Bombing Germany
Monday night on PBS, 2100hrs "Frontline, the bombing of Germany" I hope its not going to be another bleeding heart rant !Just bought a big sceen, expensive if I put my boot through it! {Thats Eastern Standard Time}
Last edited by clunckdriver; 7th Feb 2010 at 13:10.
To take a slightly contrarian view of this bombing the crap out of cities and civilians.....did not the first German bombing of London occur due to navigation error. That bombing prompted Churchill to order Bomber Command to "retaliate" against the Germans and Harris ordered a pre-planned strike in response to that order.
My view being the bombing campaigns of both sides started by "mistake".
Then did not Churchill realize the German bombing was detracting from the German attacks against Fighter Command and the Chain Home Radar system which was actually beneficial in the defense of the country.
Could we not agree warfare in the Second World War changed from being a strictly military affair to being the first all out War....one where civilians were made targets for mass attack as a one of the primary means of destroying the enemy will/ability to fight?
We would also have to admit such a notion is a failure as both countries Germany and the UK, did not react as hoped by the other side....but actually drew some strength from the continued bombing despite the physical destruction of the cities and killing of non-combatants.
I know the British certainly did not.
History should be told the way it really happened....not as we wish it to be...otherwise we learn the wrong lessons.
My view being the bombing campaigns of both sides started by "mistake".
Then did not Churchill realize the German bombing was detracting from the German attacks against Fighter Command and the Chain Home Radar system which was actually beneficial in the defense of the country.
Could we not agree warfare in the Second World War changed from being a strictly military affair to being the first all out War....one where civilians were made targets for mass attack as a one of the primary means of destroying the enemy will/ability to fight?
We would also have to admit such a notion is a failure as both countries Germany and the UK, did not react as hoped by the other side....but actually drew some strength from the continued bombing despite the physical destruction of the cities and killing of non-combatants.
I know the British certainly did not.
History should be told the way it really happened....not as we wish it to be...otherwise we learn the wrong lessons.
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You can argue the rights and wrongs of Coventry,Dresden,Hiroshima etc until you are blue in the face but you are argueing from the perspective of current morality and unless you were actually around at the time you cannot pass judgement but what you can do is to learn the lessons and make sure it never happens again
Morality is not the argument.....tit for tat is not the point....effectiveness and the unneccessary death and destruction is the point.
In War....be it yesterday or today....does not the sheer scale of forces employed determine the methods.....not morality?
Can we have "morality" in all out war.....where one's own survival is at risk?
Isn't it the "moral thing" to survive and overcome aggression?
In War....be it yesterday or today....does not the sheer scale of forces employed determine the methods.....not morality?
Can we have "morality" in all out war.....where one's own survival is at risk?
Isn't it the "moral thing" to survive and overcome aggression?
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SAS, the Gotha/Zepperlin raids were not a " mistake", Gurnica was not a "mistake" ,they were in fact carefully planned attacks on civilians, with the clear intention of causing panic and the collapse of the governments resistance, let me remind you that Hauptmann Richard von Bentivegni and his fellow aircrew of Reisnflugzeuabteilung 501 were the first to drop aircraft bombs on London way before WW2, further to this Warsaw, Roterdam and God knows how many other towns from Russia to North Africa were NOT acidents!Next we will be asked to belive that the concentration camps {into which some of my kin were sent, never to be seen again}were just a "mistake" No bombing was the ONLY way Britain and its allies could fight back at the time, we owe a huge dept to the aircrew who had the task of carrying out this task, knowing the chances of survival they were indeed the bravest of the brave.And by the way, those who claim that bombing did not destroy most of the Nazies will and means to fight should read Albert Speers writings. You are right, history must be told, but not with the benifit of 20/20 hindsight and revision.
Here's one historical account....
Perhaps you might accept this article from the BBC.
BBC - History - World Wars: British Bombing Strategy in World War Two
The Blitz refers to the strategic bombing campaign conducted by the Germans against London and other cities in England from September of 1940 through May of 1941, targeting populated areas, factories and dock yards.
The first German attack on London actually occurred by accident. On the night of August 24, 1940, Luftwaffe bombers aiming for military targets on the outskirts of London drifted off course and instead dropped their bombs on the center of London destroying several homes and killing civilians. Amid the public outrage that followed, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, believing it was a deliberate attack, ordered Berlin to be bombed the next evening.
About 40 British bombers managed to reach Berlin and inflicted minimal property damage. However, the Germans were utterly stunned by the British air-attack on Hitler's capital. It was the first time bombs had ever fallen on Berlin. Making matters worse, they had been repeatedly assured by Luftwaffe Chief, Hermann Göring, that it could never happen. A second British bombing raid on the night of August 28/29 resulted in Germans killed on the ground. Two nights later, a third attack occurred.
German nerves were frayed. The Nazis were outraged. In a speech delivered on September 4, Hitler threatened, "...When the British Air Force drops two or three or four thousand kilograms of bombs, then we will in one night drop 150-, 230-, 300- or 400,000 kilograms. When they declare that they will increase their attacks on our cities, then we will raze their cities to the ground. We will stop the handiwork of those night air pirates, so help us God!"
Beginning on September 7, 1940, and for a total of 57 consecutive nights, London was bombed. The decision to wage a massive bombing campaign against London and other English cities would prove to be one of the most fateful of the war. Up to that point, the Luftwaffe had targeted Royal Air Force airfields and support installations and had nearly destroyed the entire British air defense system. Switching to an all-out attack on British cities gave RAF Fighter Command a desperately needed break and the opportunity to rebuild damaged airfields, train new pilots and repair aircraft. "It was," Churchill later wrote, "therefore with a sense of relief that Fighter Command felt the German attack turn on to London..."
During the nightly bombing raids on London, people took shelter in warehouse basements and underground (subway) stations where they slept on makeshift beds amid primitive conditions with no privacy and poor sanitation facilities.
Other British cities targeted during the Blitz included; Portsmouth, Southampton, Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol, Bath, Cardiff, Birmingham, Coventry, Nottingham, Norwich, Ipswich, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Hull, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Newcastle and also Glasgow, Scotland and Belfast, Northern Ireland.
Hitler's intention was to break the morale of the British people so that they would pressure Churchill into negotiating. However, the bombing had the opposite effect, bringing the English people together to face a common enemy. Encouraged by Churchill's frequent public appearances and radio speeches, the people became determined to hold out indefinitely against the Nazi onslaught. "Business as usual," could be seen everywhere written in chalk on boarded-up shop windows.
By the end of 1940, German air raids had killed 15,000 British civilians. One of the worst attacks had occurred on the night of November 14/15 against Coventry, an industrial city east of Birmingham in central England. In that raid, 449 German bombers dropped 1,400 high explosive bombs and 100,000 incendiaries which destroyed 50,000 buildings, killing 568 persons, leaving over 1,000 badly injured. The incendiary devices created fire storms with super-heated gale force winds drawing in torrents of air to fan enormous walls of flames.
In London, on the night of December 29/30, the Germans dropped incendiaries resulting in a fire storm that devastated the area between St. Paul's Cathedral and the Guildhall, destroying several historic churches. Other famous landmarks damaged during the Blitz included Buckingham Palace, Westminster Abbey, and the Chamber of the House of Commons. The Blitz climaxed in May of 1941, leaving 375,000 Londoners homeless.
However, the RAF, utilizing newly developed radar, inflicted increasingly heavy losses on Luftwaffe bombers. British Fighter Command was able to track and plot the course of German bombers from the moment they took off from bases in Europe. RAF fighter planes were then dispatched to attack the incoming bombers at the best possible position. As a result, the Luftwaffe never gained air supremacy over England, a vital prerequisite to a land invasion. Failure to achieve air supremacy eventually led Hitler to indefinitely postpone Operation Sealion, the Nazi invasion of England, in favor of an attack on the USSR. The Blitz came to an end as Hitler ordered the Luftwaffe transferred to eastern Europe in preparation for Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the USSR.
In all, 18,000 tons of high explosives had been dropped on England during eight months of the Blitz. A total of 18,629 men, 16,201 women, and 5,028 children were killed along with 695 unidentified charred bodies.
The first German attack on London actually occurred by accident. On the night of August 24, 1940, Luftwaffe bombers aiming for military targets on the outskirts of London drifted off course and instead dropped their bombs on the center of London destroying several homes and killing civilians. Amid the public outrage that followed, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, believing it was a deliberate attack, ordered Berlin to be bombed the next evening.
About 40 British bombers managed to reach Berlin and inflicted minimal property damage. However, the Germans were utterly stunned by the British air-attack on Hitler's capital. It was the first time bombs had ever fallen on Berlin. Making matters worse, they had been repeatedly assured by Luftwaffe Chief, Hermann Göring, that it could never happen. A second British bombing raid on the night of August 28/29 resulted in Germans killed on the ground. Two nights later, a third attack occurred.
German nerves were frayed. The Nazis were outraged. In a speech delivered on September 4, Hitler threatened, "...When the British Air Force drops two or three or four thousand kilograms of bombs, then we will in one night drop 150-, 230-, 300- or 400,000 kilograms. When they declare that they will increase their attacks on our cities, then we will raze their cities to the ground. We will stop the handiwork of those night air pirates, so help us God!"
Beginning on September 7, 1940, and for a total of 57 consecutive nights, London was bombed. The decision to wage a massive bombing campaign against London and other English cities would prove to be one of the most fateful of the war. Up to that point, the Luftwaffe had targeted Royal Air Force airfields and support installations and had nearly destroyed the entire British air defense system. Switching to an all-out attack on British cities gave RAF Fighter Command a desperately needed break and the opportunity to rebuild damaged airfields, train new pilots and repair aircraft. "It was," Churchill later wrote, "therefore with a sense of relief that Fighter Command felt the German attack turn on to London..."
During the nightly bombing raids on London, people took shelter in warehouse basements and underground (subway) stations where they slept on makeshift beds amid primitive conditions with no privacy and poor sanitation facilities.
Other British cities targeted during the Blitz included; Portsmouth, Southampton, Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol, Bath, Cardiff, Birmingham, Coventry, Nottingham, Norwich, Ipswich, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Hull, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Newcastle and also Glasgow, Scotland and Belfast, Northern Ireland.
Hitler's intention was to break the morale of the British people so that they would pressure Churchill into negotiating. However, the bombing had the opposite effect, bringing the English people together to face a common enemy. Encouraged by Churchill's frequent public appearances and radio speeches, the people became determined to hold out indefinitely against the Nazi onslaught. "Business as usual," could be seen everywhere written in chalk on boarded-up shop windows.
By the end of 1940, German air raids had killed 15,000 British civilians. One of the worst attacks had occurred on the night of November 14/15 against Coventry, an industrial city east of Birmingham in central England. In that raid, 449 German bombers dropped 1,400 high explosive bombs and 100,000 incendiaries which destroyed 50,000 buildings, killing 568 persons, leaving over 1,000 badly injured. The incendiary devices created fire storms with super-heated gale force winds drawing in torrents of air to fan enormous walls of flames.
In London, on the night of December 29/30, the Germans dropped incendiaries resulting in a fire storm that devastated the area between St. Paul's Cathedral and the Guildhall, destroying several historic churches. Other famous landmarks damaged during the Blitz included Buckingham Palace, Westminster Abbey, and the Chamber of the House of Commons. The Blitz climaxed in May of 1941, leaving 375,000 Londoners homeless.
However, the RAF, utilizing newly developed radar, inflicted increasingly heavy losses on Luftwaffe bombers. British Fighter Command was able to track and plot the course of German bombers from the moment they took off from bases in Europe. RAF fighter planes were then dispatched to attack the incoming bombers at the best possible position. As a result, the Luftwaffe never gained air supremacy over England, a vital prerequisite to a land invasion. Failure to achieve air supremacy eventually led Hitler to indefinitely postpone Operation Sealion, the Nazi invasion of England, in favor of an attack on the USSR. The Blitz came to an end as Hitler ordered the Luftwaffe transferred to eastern Europe in preparation for Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the USSR.
In all, 18,000 tons of high explosives had been dropped on England during eight months of the Blitz. A total of 18,629 men, 16,201 women, and 5,028 children were killed along with 695 unidentified charred bodies.
BBC - History - World Wars: British Bombing Strategy in World War Two
Last edited by SASless; 7th Feb 2010 at 16:23.
Failure to achieve air supremacy eventually led Hitler to indefinitely postpone Operation Sealion,
Wrong but you are not the only person misled in this thought. It was the failure to obtain naval supremacy that caused Sealion to be postoned. The Germans were well aware that the Royal Navy would cause unacceptable losses on an invasion fleet even if the Luftwaffe had local air superiority. Beware of perpetuating the spin that Churchill and the RAF both wanted to put on events.
(Sorry to be contentious on this one. We need all three services and they all need more resources so I don't want to trigger any inter-service rivalry. On the issue of bombing of cities you can also argue that a policy of total blockade is equally inhumane and both sides tried this in both WW1 and WW2 although of course the Allies were ultimately the more successful.)
Wrong but you are not the only person misled in this thought. It was the failure to obtain naval supremacy that caused Sealion to be postoned. The Germans were well aware that the Royal Navy would cause unacceptable losses on an invasion fleet even if the Luftwaffe had local air superiority. Beware of perpetuating the spin that Churchill and the RAF both wanted to put on events.
(Sorry to be contentious on this one. We need all three services and they all need more resources so I don't want to trigger any inter-service rivalry. On the issue of bombing of cities you can also argue that a policy of total blockade is equally inhumane and both sides tried this in both WW1 and WW2 although of course the Allies were ultimately the more successful.)
Hi
All the bleeding heart crowd talk about is "what a terrible thing to do to DRESDEN". Don't they think that if Germany had thad the correct type of aircraft they would have done exactly the same to UK, and have they never heard of Coventry, London and Liverpool not forgetting Hiroshima , Nagasaki and the firebombing of Tokyo (WHICH INCIDENTALY KILLED A LOT MORE THAT THE DRESDEN RAID).
All the bleeding heart crowd talk about is "what a terrible thing to do to DRESDEN". Don't they think that if Germany had thad the correct type of aircraft they would have done exactly the same to UK, and have they never heard of Coventry, London and Liverpool not forgetting Hiroshima , Nagasaki and the firebombing of Tokyo (WHICH INCIDENTALY KILLED A LOT MORE THAT THE DRESDEN RAID).
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SAS, The BBC/CBC and others have made endless docu/dramas on this subject, some good, some very poor work{The Mckenna twins in Canada being the worst distorters of history by far} I prefer to get my information from the tons of papers released by various governments now that the time limitations on the various secrets acts have run out, some of the most informative stuff is to be found in the personel papers of Goering, Goebels and other leaders of Germany, there are some other very good sources written by historians such as Francis K Mason, who was at one time an RAF pilot. The first bombing of London may well have been by error, but the reading of some of the above noted papers leaves no doubt that not only was London to be bombed when the planned invasion had started but that the SS and other terror organisations under the command of Prof Franz Six of the RSHA run by Heydrich would start a pre planned reign of terror throught the land, so forgive me if I express no regrets over the bombing of Germany, they were responsible for the most savage actions against civilisation, they did indeed "reap the wind", and deserved it!
Don't think for a second I am apologizing to the Germans or for the Germans....remember Eisenhower ordered there be maximum exposure and documentation, written and photographic, to prevent there ever being a way for anyone to deny the extent of the evil done by the Nazi government.
I would have taken a much more firm approach to those involved in any way with the atrocities committed by the SS and other organizations that murdered their way through Europe and Russia.
Same for the Japanese who committed similar horrors against POW's and civilians.
I see no reason for the whole lot being stood up against a wall.
Many years ago I stood at a place called Malmedy.....where the SS gunned down a group of American POW's....and felt rage even then after all those years. Perhaps it came from my four Uncles being in the Army in the area at the time....and very well could have been one of those guys if circumstances had been a bit different.
Read up on the capture of Hong Kong and how the Japanese treated the Nurses and POW's and one can find it easy to withhold any thought of mercy for the troops that did the rape, murder, and bayoneting of prisoners.
The real reason we won the war is primarily our industrial might.....we were out producing the Germans two to one and despite the bombing campaign we would have won. The ground war had beaten the Germans back into Germany before the Bombing Campaign reached its full strength. Bombing played a major role sure....but it did not win the war. The Germans were building as many fighter aircraft as ever, and the German people had not given in to the bombing. It took troops on the ground to defeat them but it took air power and sea power combined with a strong industrial capacity to win along with the ground forces.
I would have taken a much more firm approach to those involved in any way with the atrocities committed by the SS and other organizations that murdered their way through Europe and Russia.
Same for the Japanese who committed similar horrors against POW's and civilians.
I see no reason for the whole lot being stood up against a wall.
Many years ago I stood at a place called Malmedy.....where the SS gunned down a group of American POW's....and felt rage even then after all those years. Perhaps it came from my four Uncles being in the Army in the area at the time....and very well could have been one of those guys if circumstances had been a bit different.
Read up on the capture of Hong Kong and how the Japanese treated the Nurses and POW's and one can find it easy to withhold any thought of mercy for the troops that did the rape, murder, and bayoneting of prisoners.
The real reason we won the war is primarily our industrial might.....we were out producing the Germans two to one and despite the bombing campaign we would have won. The ground war had beaten the Germans back into Germany before the Bombing Campaign reached its full strength. Bombing played a major role sure....but it did not win the war. The Germans were building as many fighter aircraft as ever, and the German people had not given in to the bombing. It took troops on the ground to defeat them but it took air power and sea power combined with a strong industrial capacity to win along with the ground forces.
War on the civilian populations has happened since time immemorial, all the way back into recorded history, be it on battlefields, sieges or out and out as we call it today genocide. Only the methods of waging that war has changed, from starvation and disease to area bombing or mechanised murder on a grand scale. Wars just do not affect the military and even more so with the advent of the aeroplane, many more become susceptible to the actions of armed forces and their political masters.
To change the subject slightly, a pprooner talks about what may have happened should England been invaded in 1940. The SS had a primary arrest list already worked out all be it with some inaccuracies, covering people from all strata of society but mainly those who would provide leadership and resistance. I suggest that people read Auschwitz to Alderney by Tom Freeman Keel, about the plans of the SS and he contends that the underground hospital's in the Channel Islands where to be extermination complexes for the so called Final Solution. Why does a hospital have a railway inside, why where the doors gas tight and importantly the wards are the same dimension as the gas chambers in Birkenau. A nice quiet place to commit mass murder with no witness's and no escape for the prisoners unlike the Sobibor breakout where people escaped and survived to give evidence.
Sometimes you have to retaliate to aggression, and trying to judge actions of the past by standards of today does not stand up. Yes, Dresden was awful, but just like London Guernica and Warsaw but I do not see people wringing their hands over those cities.
To change the subject slightly, a pprooner talks about what may have happened should England been invaded in 1940. The SS had a primary arrest list already worked out all be it with some inaccuracies, covering people from all strata of society but mainly those who would provide leadership and resistance. I suggest that people read Auschwitz to Alderney by Tom Freeman Keel, about the plans of the SS and he contends that the underground hospital's in the Channel Islands where to be extermination complexes for the so called Final Solution. Why does a hospital have a railway inside, why where the doors gas tight and importantly the wards are the same dimension as the gas chambers in Birkenau. A nice quiet place to commit mass murder with no witness's and no escape for the prisoners unlike the Sobibor breakout where people escaped and survived to give evidence.
Sometimes you have to retaliate to aggression, and trying to judge actions of the past by standards of today does not stand up. Yes, Dresden was awful, but just like London Guernica and Warsaw but I do not see people wringing their hands over those cities.
Hi Sasless,
Yes also the systems of oppression used in China and South-east Asia operated by the Kempati, the Japanese equal to the Gestapo and the SS. The well documented use of captured prisoners of war and civilians in medical and biological warfare by Unit 731 if the Japanese army but also the subsequent trials of officers and men of that unit yielded very few death sentences after the war.
War criminals escaped justice also in the western area of operations in WWII at the end of the war. But, that has also has happened since time immemorial.
Yes also the systems of oppression used in China and South-east Asia operated by the Kempati, the Japanese equal to the Gestapo and the SS. The well documented use of captured prisoners of war and civilians in medical and biological warfare by Unit 731 if the Japanese army but also the subsequent trials of officers and men of that unit yielded very few death sentences after the war.
War criminals escaped justice also in the western area of operations in WWII at the end of the war. But, that has also has happened since time immemorial.
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SASless
I was with you all the way until you said
The real reason we won the war is primarily our industrial might.....we were out producing the Germans two to one and despite the bombing campaign we would have won. The ground war had beaten the Germans back into Germany before the Bombing Campaign reached its full strength. Bombing played a major role sure....but it did not win the war. The Germans were building as many fighter aircraft as ever, and the German people had not given in to the bombing. It took troops on the ground to defeat them but it took air power and sea power combined with a strong industrial capacity to win along with the ground forces.
When you say 'we' can I take it you are 100% including the Russians who lost 9 out of 10 killed during the war, who along with the Russian winter, had a more devastating effect of the German war machine than all other countries put together. Without the Russians getting mowed down in their millions, there would have been nowhere for the USA to arrive late in and join in, as the west would have been lost.
As for me, I am glad the USA came on side, and glad for all the other countries too. With hindsight, it would be easy to say that some raids/battles were atrocities, but then it was war, and both sides did their best to win.
I fully understand how Germans fell/agreed for the Nazi ideals, and were swept along with them, but always find it odd, just how much the Japanese had changed since WW1.
Concentration camps have been mentioned above, and this is another oddity for me. Having met folks who liberated the camps, and heard what they saw with their own eyes, I am amazed that folks like Churchill did so little to help the poor souls in the camps out.
Sorry for thread drift.
I was with you all the way until you said
The real reason we won the war is primarily our industrial might.....we were out producing the Germans two to one and despite the bombing campaign we would have won. The ground war had beaten the Germans back into Germany before the Bombing Campaign reached its full strength. Bombing played a major role sure....but it did not win the war. The Germans were building as many fighter aircraft as ever, and the German people had not given in to the bombing. It took troops on the ground to defeat them but it took air power and sea power combined with a strong industrial capacity to win along with the ground forces.
When you say 'we' can I take it you are 100% including the Russians who lost 9 out of 10 killed during the war, who along with the Russian winter, had a more devastating effect of the German war machine than all other countries put together. Without the Russians getting mowed down in their millions, there would have been nowhere for the USA to arrive late in and join in, as the west would have been lost.
As for me, I am glad the USA came on side, and glad for all the other countries too. With hindsight, it would be easy to say that some raids/battles were atrocities, but then it was war, and both sides did their best to win.
I fully understand how Germans fell/agreed for the Nazi ideals, and were swept along with them, but always find it odd, just how much the Japanese had changed since WW1.
Concentration camps have been mentioned above, and this is another oddity for me. Having met folks who liberated the camps, and heard what they saw with their own eyes, I am amazed that folks like Churchill did so little to help the poor souls in the camps out.
Sorry for thread drift.
Concentration camps started in the Boer War, many died due to poor administration and management rather than a deliberate policy of murder either by execution or work and starvation, either way succeeds in the end. German concentration camps where known in the 30s in the UK and government white papers where produced at the time. One only has to think about Frank Foley at the Berlin embassy or Raoul Wallenberg for helping to get people out.
But, we did nothing about Rwanda or the Balkans, yet nobody complains about what did not happen, ie some kind of military action until it was too late.
But, we did nothing about Rwanda or the Balkans, yet nobody complains about what did not happen, ie some kind of military action until it was too late.
To get back on thread, the topic is Bombing Germany.
Having evacuated from Europe in 1940, the British Empire was really the only major power left facing Hitler. Therefore the conflict moved from Europe to around the Mediterranean where Italy was getting beaten, so in came Germany to help out. Men and equipment were suddenly poured in and the only way left to affect the German war machine and productivity was from the air.
Each war seems to be fought with the equipment from the last, so first using Whitleys, Blenheims, Hampdens and Wellingtons, the RAF began a fight back that was to cause the Germans to divert enormous numbers of men and equipment to combat the bombing offensive of Bomber Command. That deprived them of men to throw into Russia or other areas, which would have probably given them victory.
So, bombing Germany by the RAF and our Allies was the key to winning the war, by pinning down men and material that would have turned the tide elsewhere. It gave time for the US to enter the war after Pearl Harbor. yeas, American men and material enabled the war to be concluded sooner, but the STRATEGIC effect was that of Bomber Command denying the enemy the ability to deploy resources for a decisive victory.
Had Hitler had these resources available, Russia would never have had the ability to resist, and therefore have been beaten into submission. The conquered populace and natural resources would then have been available to throw into an invasion of England, forcing the Royal Family to Canada and perhaps neutralising America against helping the UK or the remaining parts of its Empire. One by one Australia and New Zealand, Malta and the Middle East would have fallen until only Africa the Americas remained. By then, the German and Japanese would have had vastly superior equipment, jet aircraft and rockets and battle tested tactics to employ against unseasoned soldiers.
At best the world map would have Africa and the Americas untouched with South pro German, America neutral and possibly "annexing" (invading) Canada to ensure at least security from land attack from three sides.
Bombing Germany was therefore a necessary evil. It was not the mass murder of civilians with impunity as the Germans did with "untermenschen" but at a very bloody cost. The RAF were not swaggering SS bullies, coldly exterminating vast numbers of abjectly terrified and defenceless people, but against an enemy who did hit them hard every time.
Anyone can think themselves a "hero" against unarmed and starving people who can't hurt you, but it's an altogether different class of person who night after night climbs aboard an aircraft loaded with bombs and fuel, combatting their own fears, the weather and a determined and efficient enemy.
In the context of the time, the German Nation reaped what it had sowed. Guernica, Warsaw and Rotterdam, Coventry, Liverpool, London had suffered at the hands of the Germans almost without cost. The RAF paid a high price for their campaign but there was no alternative unless we were to lose.
Having evacuated from Europe in 1940, the British Empire was really the only major power left facing Hitler. Therefore the conflict moved from Europe to around the Mediterranean where Italy was getting beaten, so in came Germany to help out. Men and equipment were suddenly poured in and the only way left to affect the German war machine and productivity was from the air.
Each war seems to be fought with the equipment from the last, so first using Whitleys, Blenheims, Hampdens and Wellingtons, the RAF began a fight back that was to cause the Germans to divert enormous numbers of men and equipment to combat the bombing offensive of Bomber Command. That deprived them of men to throw into Russia or other areas, which would have probably given them victory.
So, bombing Germany by the RAF and our Allies was the key to winning the war, by pinning down men and material that would have turned the tide elsewhere. It gave time for the US to enter the war after Pearl Harbor. yeas, American men and material enabled the war to be concluded sooner, but the STRATEGIC effect was that of Bomber Command denying the enemy the ability to deploy resources for a decisive victory.
Had Hitler had these resources available, Russia would never have had the ability to resist, and therefore have been beaten into submission. The conquered populace and natural resources would then have been available to throw into an invasion of England, forcing the Royal Family to Canada and perhaps neutralising America against helping the UK or the remaining parts of its Empire. One by one Australia and New Zealand, Malta and the Middle East would have fallen until only Africa the Americas remained. By then, the German and Japanese would have had vastly superior equipment, jet aircraft and rockets and battle tested tactics to employ against unseasoned soldiers.
At best the world map would have Africa and the Americas untouched with South pro German, America neutral and possibly "annexing" (invading) Canada to ensure at least security from land attack from three sides.
Bombing Germany was therefore a necessary evil. It was not the mass murder of civilians with impunity as the Germans did with "untermenschen" but at a very bloody cost. The RAF were not swaggering SS bullies, coldly exterminating vast numbers of abjectly terrified and defenceless people, but against an enemy who did hit them hard every time.
Anyone can think themselves a "hero" against unarmed and starving people who can't hurt you, but it's an altogether different class of person who night after night climbs aboard an aircraft loaded with bombs and fuel, combatting their own fears, the weather and a determined and efficient enemy.
In the context of the time, the German Nation reaped what it had sowed. Guernica, Warsaw and Rotterdam, Coventry, Liverpool, London had suffered at the hands of the Germans almost without cost. The RAF paid a high price for their campaign but there was no alternative unless we were to lose.
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Back off thread again, but regarding Unit 731 in Manchuria and ("the subsequent trials of officers and men of that unit"), were any such trials held?
I understood that the CO of the unit offered the Americans all the documentation of their unspeakable experiments on Chinese civilians and American, British and Australian PoWs, (including viviscetion!), and to their shame, (or a good example of realpolitik, depending upon your point of view), the Americans took up the offer and all those Japanese doctors and technicians were shipped to the US - not as prisoners, but as free, well paid and valued researchers - where most eventually gained US citizenship.
I understood that the CO of the unit offered the Americans all the documentation of their unspeakable experiments on Chinese civilians and American, British and Australian PoWs, (including viviscetion!), and to their shame, (or a good example of realpolitik, depending upon your point of view), the Americans took up the offer and all those Japanese doctors and technicians were shipped to the US - not as prisoners, but as free, well paid and valued researchers - where most eventually gained US citizenship.
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Hi air pig.
I did not mention where concentration camps were first used, although I knew it well. It seems many folks get a bit touchy when you mention the original chap who came up with the idea!
Although, to be fair, I did give him a mention in his lack of action against the German's camps later on.
Going back to the bombing topic. all of us on this forum are typing with hind sight, and the world seemed a very different place during WW2.
Many people had virtually no idea of other countries, or the population therein.
One example of this, is that many British soldiers, upon first encountering massed ranks of Jewish prisoners, treated them badly because they had seen the Germans have a loathing of them. This was based on the fact that many British soldiers had not really met jews, and knew little about them, whereas they knew the Germans and trusted their opinions!
On the other hand (and hopefully more humorous) Some German soldiers, upon their first meeting of allied troops (at the end of the war, after surrender) thought all British had naturally rosy cheeks, and that Americans must be related in biology to fish, as their jaws constantly opened and closed! (the Germans did not know about chewing gum at this stage).
I did not mention where concentration camps were first used, although I knew it well. It seems many folks get a bit touchy when you mention the original chap who came up with the idea!
Although, to be fair, I did give him a mention in his lack of action against the German's camps later on.
Going back to the bombing topic. all of us on this forum are typing with hind sight, and the world seemed a very different place during WW2.
Many people had virtually no idea of other countries, or the population therein.
One example of this, is that many British soldiers, upon first encountering massed ranks of Jewish prisoners, treated them badly because they had seen the Germans have a loathing of them. This was based on the fact that many British soldiers had not really met jews, and knew little about them, whereas they knew the Germans and trusted their opinions!
On the other hand (and hopefully more humorous) Some German soldiers, upon their first meeting of allied troops (at the end of the war, after surrender) thought all British had naturally rosy cheeks, and that Americans must be related in biology to fish, as their jaws constantly opened and closed! (the Germans did not know about chewing gum at this stage).
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Hind sight is a wonderful thing as we kids of 1939/45 were 8 to 14 the war brought us wonderful play grounds [ bomb sites ] but we suffered lack of sleep ,young Willies mum and sister being killed ,the noise and frightening explosions of bombs, so when we started to bomb Germany we were proud and grateful it was happening and we and our parents couldn't give a damb how many Germans were killed it was only after the war was over and the figures of how many Airmen lost their lives that the euphoria left us, Thinks did we win the war? we were worse off than the Germans were after it .at least they started with a clean sheet of paper to get their industry back on its feet. I'm ex R.A.F.
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There could be no other method of stopping the Nazis and their supporters - a large proportion of the German people - except by bombing them into submission.
The Nazis were the greatest collection of power-crazy, vicious, and unbelievably cruel people, the world has ever seen in modern history - except perhaps for the Japanese nation of WW2. Both deserved nothing more than being bombed out of existence.
In war, civilians suffer along with military personnel, either as the quaintly-termed "collateral damage" - or as supporters. War is about destroying evil aims of domination by violence - and equally evil methods have to be devised to beat them.
The Nazis were the greatest collection of power-crazy, vicious, and unbelievably cruel people, the world has ever seen in modern history - except perhaps for the Japanese nation of WW2. Both deserved nothing more than being bombed out of existence.
In war, civilians suffer along with military personnel, either as the quaintly-termed "collateral damage" - or as supporters. War is about destroying evil aims of domination by violence - and equally evil methods have to be devised to beat them.