GR-9 question please chaps

[recce_FAC]

I know this topic has been done to death, however I have simple question and I request a simple answer (for a pongo )

Why when us guys on the ground are having a pretty tough time in Afghanistan are the RAF/MOD getting rid of the finest CAS aircraft in the skies. I am not bashing the GR4 community at all, they dig out blind for us and provide a sterling service.However the GR-9 in a decent pilots hands are second to none.

Please spare me the old lines ''two pairs of eyes are better than one'' or ''GR-9 hasnt got a gun' because that is a comment made by Google pilots that havnt been calling for CAS or sending a CAS brief(9-line for you out of date punters)whilst in contact. ''Happy IV'' are finished at the end of March, which is depressing news for many a JTAC that has called on IV's services in the past few years.

Like I have stated this is not a GR-4 bashing thread at all, I just would like a simple explanation as to why this silly idea is happening.Even if we kept hold of them for a few more years until operations in Afghan are scaled back(if ever).

Any answers would be gratefully accepted.

Regards

Widow 3_

[pr00ne]

recce_FAC,

You are misinformed. 'They' are not getting rid of the GR9. The RAF is losing one squadron, leaving the remaining three to see the type through until it is replaced by the F-35 Lightning.

There is less than one whole RAF squadron deployed to Afghanistan for the CAS/recce role, as the RAF has 7 squadrons of Tornado GR4's as well as the Harriers, as well as the Typhoon force, the GR9 is being rested after a pretty grueling non stop deployment to Afghanistan.

You may have noticed that there has been just a teensy weensy world wide recession, so the defence budget is under pressure, along with the rest of UK public expenditure, and will face reductions in the next few years.

The one Harrier squadron going early is a part of that reduction.

[recce_FAC]

Cheers for you reply,
Granted IV are going so that leaves NSW and 1 SQN, how long before they go? Just gutted that the best CAS A/C we have will not be carrying out CAS on operations again. I know we still have the carrier committment etc its just a shame that we wont get them over the slies of Afghan again, and IV are getting disbanded. Why not bin a GR-4 sqn instead?

[flipflopman RB199]

Pr00ne,

You are misinformed..

Which three Harrier squadrons would that be then? As I understand it being part of Joint Force Harrier, there will be 4(R) which will be for all intents and purposes 20(R) and the Joint Harrier Sqn, comprising NSW and 1(F).

As F-35 is being delayed as we speak and looking increasingly unlikely to reach our shores, perhaps your rose tinted, Labour biased spin would be best used on a topic you actually have some first hand knowledge of, rather than simply opining upon a subject that you have no real knowledge or experience of, and feel content to pontificate upon from the comfort of your armchair.

I personally would also like to hear any answers to the questions that recce_FAC has asked, and hopefully they will offer a little more insight and be a little better researched and relevant than the rubbish pr00ne has offered thus far.


Flipflopman

[Easy Street]

Why not bin a GR-4 sqn instead?

'They' have. Or more precisely, 'they' have axed 15 crews from the GR4 force - approximately 2 per squadron. This achieves similar savings to axing an entire squadron (typically 14 crews) without any of the negative headlines. And who's to say that the GR4 force will escape any future defence review unscathed?

I am not bashing the GR4 community at all, they dig out blind for us and provide a sterling service

I think you answered your own question there. The GR4 may not be specifically designed for CAS in the same way the Harrier was, but it gets the job done, especially now that PW4 and DMS Brimstone are in service. As pr00ne said, we're broke, and we can't afford the luxury of a single-role fast jet - which (to an extent) is what the Harrier is. It can't touch the GR4's reconnaissance capability and is of much lesser utility in a traditional "full war" scenario. Meanwhile, the GR4 is achieving the task in Afghanistan (a task that has changed in nature since the Harrier force left, thanks to the intervention of Gen McChrystal).

Arguments about RN vs RAF politics and future control of the F-35 fleet are a different matter, don't even go there!

[Wrathmonk]

The NSW, according to here, comprises elements of 800 and 801 Sqn. It was always the plan to have 2 x RN and 2 x RAF Sqns but AIUI the RN didn't have enough of certain specialist qualifications (Sqn QFI's I believe) required by "RAF regulations" to stand up 2 sqns and hence NSW came into being. I may be wrong and I'm sure I'll be put right! T'is the internet after all.

To answer recceFAC (who, despite his protestations seems to have a dislike for anything other than the GR9 in a similar way that CirrusF has a dislike for anything RAF ) the really simple answer may well be that, given the emphasis on the war rather than a war, JFH was never manned sufficiently for "the long haul", unlike the Tonka force (get your head into the books and do the maths). Furthermore the GR9 was always due to go out of service in 2018 and the Tonka in 2025. If you draw down the Tonka too early then, come 2018 when you then have no JFH, (now) not many Tonkas, a Typhoon force that may still be "austere" and the F35 delayed you really are up 5hit creek without a paddle. In the same way the Jag was the "sacrificial lamb" a few years ago it is the Harriers turn now and it will be the Tonka's turn when F35 (and Typhoon) can step up to the plate. And don't forget there will be early reductions to the Tornado force (and I suspect more than one sqn), they're just waiting until after the SDR (I know the article is about Kinloss but the words are in there, I just couldn't be bothered to go further down than the top article on Google!) and/or peace in AFG (which if Gordo is to believed may be within the next 5 years....). Of course the brutal reality is that the GR4 are committed to ops. JFH isn't. And when you need to save money you don't chop units committed to ops - makes it hard work for the spin doctors (yes, I know, MR2 ...)

And anyway - a reduction in sqn numbers is a meaningless metric (apart from less wg cdrs and sqn ldrs which, judging by many posts on here, is not such a bad thing). I am fairly confident that JFH will still manage what is expected of it (which, sadly, I suspect is to keep the 'decks' warm as much as possible so as not to give anyone an excuse to say we don't need Carrier based aircraft anymore - enjoy the world tours whilst you can!) until it gracefully retires to the modern day version of the scrapyard.

[recce_FAC]

I'm not a GR-4 hater not by a long way, I'm just a big fan of the GR-9.The A war not THE war is a common term banded around the British armed forces. My thought on this is one of distain. My muckers and I are currently fighting THE war in Afghanistan, I couldnt give a toss about what may happen in the future, I care about what is happening right now. The GR-9 is the best CAS jet we have and CAS is a life saver (for us anyway)in Afghan.

I understand that the Harrier force needed a break,I know the GR-4 gang have carried on the role and are doing very well. It doesnt change the fact that the British armed forces NEED CAS everyday on Herrick and the best CAS jet we have is not involved and will not ever be involved again.

[pr00ne]

flipflopman RB199,

As I wasn't talking to you I couldn't give a rats arse what you think of my opinions.

4(R), 1(F) and 800 NAS is three by my reckoning, not sure what you think one plus one plus one is in your little world?

recce_FAC,

GR9 was heading for the chop between 2018 and 2022 anyway, any post election defence review may well bin it completely, especially if the Tories axe the carriers.
Despite the ill informed nonsense that flipflopmaan RB199 spouts, even if the Tories DO can CVF then the UK is committed to a two type fast jet fleet and the F-35 will join the RAF in one form or another as a Harrier and Tornado GR4 replacement or just as the Tornado GR4 replacement. It will be in much smaller numbers than the present fleet though.

The RAF may well have a much smaller fast jet fleet in the next decade, irrespective of who wins the General Election, but with Typhoon and Lightning it will still be one of the most capable on the planet. It will be more than capable of delivering the first class CAS you desire.

[recce_FAC]

Typhoon is going to be a cracking CAS platform, Ive worked with them often in FAC training and its hit of miss(no pun) depending if you get an Ex Jag mate flying or an Ex F-3 bloke. These all seen a long way off , and really nobody has actually answered my basic question.

Why are we getting rid of the best CAS a/c in a time that CAS is vital for us blokes on the deck? Im not interested in the future, we binned Jag which turned out being a massive mistake. All I want is a simple answer with out all the bull**** talk of JSF and elections.

[BlackIsle]

recce FAC

the simple short answer is - a decision has been taken!

So you and no doubt others don't like it - poor you - get yourself promoted to a position where you can make things happen or become a politician. The rationale behind such decisions is where you get the bull**** and politics you refer to

[Occasional Aviator]

recceFAC,

People HAVE answered your question - it IS about what you call "Bull****', and I'm afraid the answer isn't simple.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

recce_FAC; the GR9 is going because despite comments about it being better than the GR4, the GR4 can do the job to the required standard; and do the recce side of the house better.

We can't afford to have 2 jets that can do the same thing. If the GR4 couldn't provide anywhere near the capability the GR9 could, then I'm sure there'd be more kicking and screaming. As you've said though, it's doing a good job.

If you have any specific complaints about how the GR4 works in the CAS role, then do something about it; everyone flying it right now would be very receptive to some constructive criticism, especially if it means that people calling for CAS get a better service!

[Bob Viking]

Playing Devil's advocate now...

What if we were to push money into Typhoon as our multi-role fighter and keep Harrier as our 'niche' capability that is readily deployable and can operate from much smaller strips and with a much smaller footprint than the Tornado?
Binning the GR4 would save more money and leave us with a capable and flexible FJ fleet. Admittedly there may be a few ruffled feathers in the navigator community!
BV

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I think that since the advent of JFH and the Navy's slight undermanning, the Harrier force has got too small to do anything, really. If there was a way to suddenly generate another 5 squadrons' worth of jets, and shove anyone on the GR4 force with single-seat pretensions through training to fly them, then it might be possible. It could handle HERRICK while Typhoon gains capability.

Trouble is, that plan hinges on there being money to throw at Typhoon; and there isn't!

[Squirrel 41]

recceFAC,

First BZ to you and your mates for saving lives out there (and for aiding the opposition's existential desires through coordinating MFOs - Martyrdom Facilitation Operations). Bl**dy impressive, and I understand your concern that the UK is busy talking about A war rather than THE war.

However, and it is a big however, the defence budget is almost certainly going to be cut substantially after the next "Review". A little birdy tells me that if the MoD gets "flat cash" - ie, the same amount next year as this and so on, the they'll be about £4bn short in 2013/14 (apparently it's in the NAO Major Projects Report 2009).

If you then assume that the parties aren't kidding when they say that they're going to cut spending on defence (and the other "non-protected" departments) by 15% or so over the life of the next Parliament (2013/14), then that implies a cut for the MoD of another £5.6bn - making the hole in the MoD's black hole becomes £9.6bn or so IN 2013/14 ALONE!

In other words, to balance the books in 2013/14, the MoD would have to cancel CVF twice over. In one year.

Oops.

So against this, the answer to your question is as has been said here already: GR9 is never going back to Afghanland, and we're broke, so let's chop it. When (and not if, in my opinion) the carriers are cancelled, the CVSs will be binned and the remaining GR9s with them. Fundamentally, though there is A war on, the UK is treating it as a war of choice, and not one of national survival. Consequently, it is not pouring all of the available resources into it, and is very unlikely to do so. Thus, as the GR4s have a larger force for longer ops, are more useful in the round, and the GR9s were going earlier anyway, it's a reasonably straightforward (if painful) decision to choose the GR9 as your saving, if you have to cut one type.

Sorry, and I wish it were different. It isn't. And before anyone jumps up and down, NO political party is likely to produce a manifesto that protects defence spending, let alone increases it.

Just my 0.02.

S41

PS BV - learn to play nicely with the other children!

[recce_FAC]

Cheers for your repiles gents

Cheers for the replies gents. Once again I am in no way having a bash at the GR-4 fleet.To be honest I had the last GR-9 tour on my last tour of Herrick so I guess my 2nd hand info on GR-4 is far from fair. I guess its just one of those things that GR-9 has finished in afghanistan. Please understand that my loyalty to the GR-9 and its pilots and ground crew may have clouded my ''big picture'' appreciation . The GR-9 and its crews certainly saved a number of Brit lives in Afghan, and for that I am very grateful. The King is dead long live the King so to speak.

Moving on,can we just buy all of those A-10's sitting in the deserts of the USA?????? Only joking. Lets hope the ''master plan'' for the RAF and its CAS roled aircraft works out or are we going to be left short in years to come. A widow from Herrick 9

[Sun Who]

The big picture and difficult questions

Some passionate and legitimate views expressed here.

The unavoidable tension between fighting THE war now and A war later has never been effectively reconciled, in any country's history - ever.
The consideration that senior decision makers are being forced to wrestle with now, is that A war in the future, eventually becomes THE war now. When insufficient thought is given to A war in the future, then when it becomes THE war now, the military are left with issues such as; insufficient SH, old and creaking AT, an immature ISTAR doctrine etc, etc.

Recce_FAC is absolutely right to argue the case for THE war now, but his brothers in arms of the future will not thank him (or me, or us) if insufficient thought is given to A war in the future.

The only thing that helps me deal with the current sh1t state of affairs, is a passing knowledge of history.

Sun.

[knowitall]

"Moving on,can we just buy all of those A-10's sitting in the deserts of the USA??????"

afraid not, they're being stripped for spares to keep the active fleet in the air

[Easy Street]

recceFAC,

I guess my 2nd hand info on GR-4 is far from fair

I suspect that is the true problem here. You may not be a

GR-4 hater

but there are plenty out there, presumably including your source. They firmly believe that the GR4 is not capable of CAS and never will be. Their ears are closed to any arguments advanced in favour of Tornado. Sadly this group includes members of the aviation press, as well as fellow aviators, who show a lack of professionalism in bad-mouthing their colleagues in front of Purple audiences.

A single GR4 now carries a CAS weapon load more flexible than anything a single Harrier could manage, with 2 Paveway IVs, 3 DMS Brimstone, a gun and a Litening pod. It has advanced IRCM just as the Harrier did. It beats the Harrier's recce capability hands-down. The crews have been doing CAS on operations for 7 years and are up to the task.*

In sum, it is capable of carrying out the CAS task required on Op HERRICK. Therefore there is absolutely no requirement to buy single-role A-10s (even if we could) as there is no "capability gap".
----------------------
* Please don't start on the relative merits of Tornado crews vs Harrier / Jaguar crews. The protagonists in this particular debate (including me!) took sides as 23-year-olds graduating from Valley and will not change their minds based on a PPRuNe thread! It's worth noting that the Typhoon force seem to take a much more equitable view of their 2-seat brethren, possibly due to the diverse nature of their backgrounds.

[BrakingStop]

Er, I think you did just start the debate between Tornado and Harrier by stating that the GR4 now carries a CAS weapon load more flexible than anything the Harrier managed. Can it carry all that at the same time as your beloved Raptor or DJRP? I'm thinking not.