End of a distinguished career?
Yes, I had many hours looking at the state of the aircraft at Scrapheap Challenge St. Athan as well as a good look at the 'refurbishment' of the ex-ba Supers into K4s at Filton!
The metallurgical issues were explained at Wyton during a FSTA meeting and the imperative that FSTA must not be delayed was clearly explained to all industry participants. But of course, since then, FSTA has slipped by many years.....
Although some measures were taken to reduce cyclic fatigue (such as changes to the aileron upset regime) and a revised 'allowable flight envelope' which was extraordinarily punitive for the K2, anno domini effects on the structure were unlikely to become any easier.
However, if there are any concerns that the structural integrity is now too great a risk for passenger flying (which frankly I doubt), then the same risk applies to the aircraft flying at all!
And Arty Fufkin, a good navigator is certainly an effective alternative to a robot designed to stop incompetent 2-person airliner-drivers from ramming the ground.
Widger, wrong indeed. The VC10 and VC10K are most certainly RVSM-compliant. When the revised altimetry system was fitted, every single VC10K2, K3 and K4 flew Strumble HMU runs to achieve RVSM compliance approval and the VC10C1K was given fleet approval after a few sample aircraft achieved virtually identical results.
The metallurgical issues were explained at Wyton during a FSTA meeting and the imperative that FSTA must not be delayed was clearly explained to all industry participants. But of course, since then, FSTA has slipped by many years.....
Although some measures were taken to reduce cyclic fatigue (such as changes to the aileron upset regime) and a revised 'allowable flight envelope' which was extraordinarily punitive for the K2, anno domini effects on the structure were unlikely to become any easier.
However, if there are any concerns that the structural integrity is now too great a risk for passenger flying (which frankly I doubt), then the same risk applies to the aircraft flying at all!
And Arty Fufkin, a good navigator is certainly an effective alternative to a robot designed to stop incompetent 2-person airliner-drivers from ramming the ground.
Widger, wrong indeed. The VC10 and VC10K are most certainly RVSM-compliant. When the revised altimetry system was fitted, every single VC10K2, K3 and K4 flew Strumble HMU runs to achieve RVSM compliance approval and the VC10C1K was given fleet approval after a few sample aircraft achieved virtually identical results.
How I just love people harking on about how things were 20 odd years ago and then using supposition to add their tuppence to the current state of things. If you’re not currently involved, a 20 year old anecdote is not really relevant today.
At the start of the 90's, the RAF acknowledged there was a problem with the VC10 and the major maintenance was taken over by RAF Abingdon and eventually RAF (DARA) St Athan and a whole lot of money was thrown at the jet. This improved the state of the aircraft immensely and a huge amount of time, effort and money was spent addressing the corrosion issue acmech 1957 alluded to. Whatever the argument about cost, the simple fact is the government would not pay to replace the aircraft.
Widger - The aircraft is RVSM compliant
I love my VC10 - even if I now become a freight dog!
At the start of the 90's, the RAF acknowledged there was a problem with the VC10 and the major maintenance was taken over by RAF Abingdon and eventually RAF (DARA) St Athan and a whole lot of money was thrown at the jet. This improved the state of the aircraft immensely and a huge amount of time, effort and money was spent addressing the corrosion issue acmech 1957 alluded to. Whatever the argument about cost, the simple fact is the government would not pay to replace the aircraft.
Widger - The aircraft is RVSM compliant
I love my VC10 - even if I now become a freight dog!
Beagle, sorry chap, but your disdain of the EGPWS "robot" and faith in "navigators" is woefully misplaced. The FAA mandated Terrain Awareness and Alerting Systems (TAWS) in 1997 following a crash (admittedly, of a 2 man flightdecked aircraft) in Columbia. Since than, there have been no CFIT accidents involving aircraft fitted with TAWS. None. How many 3 or 4 man flightdecked aircraft have bimbled into mountains in the mean time? I can't say for sure, but I bet it's more than none! Even a great navigator (and all things are relative here) can have bad days, "robots" do not (at least not with a greater likelyhood of 10 to the -6.)
The VC10 has no FDR, no CVR and an escape slide system that would give today's certification authorites a heart attack. It does not meet modern certification requirements and should not be flying pax around just because it happens to be a state aircraft. All this is aside from it's airworthiness from an engineering standpoint.
Just a personal opinion though.
The VC10 has no FDR, no CVR and an escape slide system that would give today's certification authorites a heart attack. It does not meet modern certification requirements and should not be flying pax around just because it happens to be a state aircraft. All this is aside from it's airworthiness from an engineering standpoint.
Just a personal opinion though.
The VC10 has no FDR, no CVR and an escape slide system that would give today's certification authorites a heart attack. It does not meet modern certification requirements and should not be flying pax around just because it happens to be a state aircraft.
Yes, the VC10 is well overdue for replacement. But has passenger carrying in the C-130 (apart from half-one-way trips for meat bombs) been stopped as well?
What a shame the RAF didn't take up the offer of a couple of dozen A310MRTTs when they were on offer about 20 years ago......
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I haven’t said this very often, but I have to agree with Beagle. The VC 10 is a tremendous aircraft, put the sentimentality aside, four eating, breathing aircrew on the flight deck that can and are encouraged to contribute in all situations along with incredible operating procedures, without being too restrictive, and training make it truly a flexible and great aircraft. It will indeed be a very sad day for the Air Force and aviation in general when the mighty 10 flies no more.
4 x Crew = 4 x Airmanship. 2 x Crew and some boxes… I don’t think so.
4 x Crew = 4 x Airmanship. 2 x Crew and some boxes… I don’t think so.
One concern I always had was at the woeful weather radar. That really isn't good enough for the 21st century; many of us experienced lightning strikes with no threats showing on the weather radar, for example.
Being from down under, the VC-10's "footprint" never ceased to amaze me on my visits to family near Brize. Long live the 10, even if on the ground.
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Yes, the VC10 is obsolete and expensive-to-run as a transport aircraft. There is no doubt that she would have been retired years ago if AT was her only purpose. However, the aircraft is the backbone of the UK's AAR capability and for several years now it only really performed the AT role because it was already in the inventory and it could. A fleet of AAR aircraft is a capability that is vital when needed, but sits around doing very little when not engaged in ongoing operations. Utilization of the VC10 in the AT role at least allowed the RAF to keep the axe away from the tanker fleet and the dreaded 'capability holiday'. I'm sure that the real impact of the end of VC10 AT will be a reduction in the RAF's ability to generate tankers if required. As this will not affect the current war then there is an obvious case for slicing the capability, but this moves the UK forces one step closer to being configured only for Afghanistan.
As for the safety issue, the VC10 has a quite remarkable record in 40-plus years sevice as a military transport aircraft. In that time her and her crews haven't come close to killing anyone. Which is more than can be said for some of their close neighbours.
As for the safety issue, the VC10 has a quite remarkable record in 40-plus years sevice as a military transport aircraft. In that time her and her crews haven't come close to killing anyone. Which is more than can be said for some of their close neighbours.
Last edited by Brain Potter; 17th Jan 2010 at 14:41.
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Well, she's had a long and distinguished service in the pax role.
What isn't yet clear is the true reasoning.
Is this decision a precursor to scrapping the C1Ks to save money?
If it's airworthiness or equipment as has been grasped by some on here, then why is it OK to fly a Tanker (with 20-odd seats too) in GA airspace without that kit, but not the pax jets - are our crews that expendable?
My guess is the former is true - when the appropriate sums are added up, charters are cheaper than the C1K fleet.
What isn't yet clear is the true reasoning.
Is this decision a precursor to scrapping the C1Ks to save money?
If it's airworthiness or equipment as has been grasped by some on here, then why is it OK to fly a Tanker (with 20-odd seats too) in GA airspace without that kit, but not the pax jets - are our crews that expendable?
My guess is the former is true - when the appropriate sums are added up, charters are cheaper than the C1K fleet.
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The possible retirement of the dear old VC10 as a people mover once again brings up the two man crewing debate. Technology has provided us with improved collision warning, better on board planning and all knowing receivers but it can not replace a sick or unable to cope co-pilot. I can think of a significant number of occasions when a co has just stopped functioning when under pressure and a rear crew member has had to provide back-up. Statistically, an insignificant event but not insignificant when it happens to you and definitely a flight safety hazard.
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A-F
Not sure how you think this brings up the 2 man flightdeck discussion again? I've seen young/inexperienced copilots struggle in high workload conditions, but I seem to recall I did the same at times, until I stopped being young/inexperienced (ok, still happens at times...). And with the ergonomic design of modern aircraft, and the move, with modern fms, to 'operating' rather than pure 'piloting', our 2 man flightdecks seem to have proven more than capable. And yes, I've got VC10 time in the book, but we always preferred tanking to SLF anyway!
Not sure how you think this brings up the 2 man flightdeck discussion again? I've seen young/inexperienced copilots struggle in high workload conditions, but I seem to recall I did the same at times, until I stopped being young/inexperienced (ok, still happens at times...). And with the ergonomic design of modern aircraft, and the move, with modern fms, to 'operating' rather than pure 'piloting', our 2 man flightdecks seem to have proven more than capable. And yes, I've got VC10 time in the book, but we always preferred tanking to SLF anyway!
Brain Potter:
"As for the safety issue, the VC10 has a quite remarkable record in 40-plus years sevice as a military transport aircraft. In that time her and her crews haven't come close to killing anyone. Which is more than can be said for some of their close neighbours."
Just substitute "VC10" for "Nimrod" in there and.....
"As for the safety issue, the VC10 has a quite remarkable record in 40-plus years sevice as a military transport aircraft. In that time her and her crews haven't come close to killing anyone. Which is more than can be said for some of their close neighbours."
Just substitute "VC10" for "Nimrod" in there and.....
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Art Field
Oh FFS....so the nav steps in and saves the day...
Or maybe the skipper - or the co if the situation is reversed - simply lands the aircraft at the nearest suitable. If the co cannot cope, chop him/her on the OCU.
We went through the machinations(sp?) of the appropriate guys/gals to send to the 2-man flt decks out of METS and the higher achievers were deemed to be the better candidates. As it happens, the legacy platforms produced more issues than the modern platforms; candidates not up to the job, or having to deal with 3 egos rather than one...discuss..
I beggar anyone to justify the use of the VC10 in a passenger-carrying role in the modern Royal Air Force. You cannot. In terms of manpower (let's have a loadie, or was it a steward, on the headset calling abort duringthe take-off roll), efficiency (see my earlier post) or cost savings (annual VC10 maintenance budget is how many millions?) the arguments simply do not stack up.
Time to put away the rose-tinted spectacles of yesteryear and embrace today's challenge: namely, equipping an organic AT fleet rather than simply chartering everything.
Technology has provided us with improved collision warning, better on board planning and all knowing receivers but it can not replace a sick or unable to cope co-pilot.
Or maybe the skipper - or the co if the situation is reversed - simply lands the aircraft at the nearest suitable. If the co cannot cope, chop him/her on the OCU.
We went through the machinations(sp?) of the appropriate guys/gals to send to the 2-man flt decks out of METS and the higher achievers were deemed to be the better candidates. As it happens, the legacy platforms produced more issues than the modern platforms; candidates not up to the job, or having to deal with 3 egos rather than one...discuss..
I beggar anyone to justify the use of the VC10 in a passenger-carrying role in the modern Royal Air Force. You cannot. In terms of manpower (let's have a loadie, or was it a steward, on the headset calling abort duringthe take-off roll), efficiency (see my earlier post) or cost savings (annual VC10 maintenance budget is how many millions?) the arguments simply do not stack up.
Time to put away the rose-tinted spectacles of yesteryear and embrace today's challenge: namely, equipping an organic AT fleet rather than simply chartering everything.
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Beagle, are you serious? A navigator is not a substitute for EGPWS, not even slightly. Let it continue as a tanker, a job for which it is more suited. It's just a shame they scrapped all those Ks!!
When I came off the in the late 80's we were seriously struggling for spares them, then the place, the name of which escapes me, burnt down which held a lot of the spares.
So we had to rob the hulks at Abingdon, what a place to store them, not exactly Arizona is it.. then they put them in bags with no dehumidifiers, ( though I believe one Engineering officer kept pushing it and told them they needed them) that helps all that moisture in, I was even more amazed when they decided to refurb them and flew them out of there having seen the spars sitting in their own swimming pools........... Jeez those crew earned their money...............
One of the best aircraft I ever worked on and was always a pleasure to fly in......... but they must be seriously suffering these days, fuel consumption, noise, lack of budget and age...
I still cannot see why the RAF do not simply lease some of the 737-900's that are parked up at Lasham from airlines that have gone bust in the short term.... I just hope some of the 10's find a loving home other than a scrapyard.
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Well if the VC10 is no longer fit for pax duties then we must also apply the same to the C130 fleet.
That will cause a few issues in-theatre and around the world.
That will cause a few issues in-theatre and around the world.
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Just a word to explain what I said about co-pilot inability. This was extreme situations when the co, one with severe migraine and others who just shut down completely, were of no use at all. Very rare I admit but one hell of an one arm paper hangers game if it happens on a busy tanker sortie. Yes some of them should have gone at the OCU stage but!!!.
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C130 flights in Ops work to a different rule book, When working in the routine role, there is control of who actually is allowed on them.
VC10 carries Families, Civilians, thats where the policy makers are getting cold feet. As a kid growing up a mile from LHR I have memories of the BOAC 10's flying over my house, long before the thought of working with them came along. Its a shame that they are coming to the end of their life.
Gate Guard for Brize. A 10 would look great on the sports pitch opposite MT.
VC10 carries Families, Civilians, thats where the policy makers are getting cold feet. As a kid growing up a mile from LHR I have memories of the BOAC 10's flying over my house, long before the thought of working with them came along. Its a shame that they are coming to the end of their life.
Gate Guard for Brize. A 10 would look great on the sports pitch opposite MT.