USA Army Airship for Afghanistan ISR
So this would be the Roger Munk that used to work in previous companies that failed with this gentleman (at least the latter woke up, smelt the coffee and gave up!):
So which expert should we believe?
The tired old carousel of Lighter-than-air (LTA) continues to revolve, on average once every twenty years or so. Is that an Aereon or a Megalifter? In a poor light a Skyship looks much like a Dynairship. Whatever virtues LTA once possessed have now been overtaken by the enrmous reduction in payload size and power consumption and the ready availability of uav's of all sizes, from Globalstar downwards, with which to deploy them. Time on station has been a red herring for years, the area to focus on being "on station" LTA has never been any good at this, a twenty knot headwind reduces your speed of advance by 40%, and is likely to result, if prolonged for anytime, in the vehicle being as likely to be found in Alabama as Afghanistan. In the trophosphere the situation gets worse! The main attraction of LTA lies in the fact that those seeking investment in such crackpot schemes know that investors have no reliable database of what the build or r&d costs for such turkeys ought to be, it's rich picking time for the snake oil salesmen when an air ship project hits town. Luckily, the tired old carousel at DARPA and similar institutions revolves at about the same speed, whenever anybody at such government offices wants a little extra cash for themselves, why not flag up a new "Walrus" or "Skycat"? It like goldfish, a short attention span means you can re-introduce the same nonsense time and again and wait hopefully for the cheques to drop through the letterbox! It is just possible that a conventional blimp of about 100 metres, approximately similar to a "K" class but with advanced glass cockpit and lightweight diesels, could make headway in the coastal surveillance/anti piracy field, but its a small r&d task, no money in it for the speculators you see. I know what I am talking about, invest at your peril! John Wood (Ex Chief Exec and co-founder of Airship Industries)
Roger Munk died on Sunday (21st) of a heart attack.
I don't think he was rich off the profits of his airship work. It would appear that what blimp industry there is owes quite a lot to him - his designs are flying out there right now.
I am amazed at the scorn people pour on any attempt at doing something different. It's so incredibly unintelligent and yet the people on this forum cannot be stupid.
Designing aircraft is not a job for idiots who can't work out the average wind speed in Afghanistan. What they do is risky because you start out not knowing everything and the job is to learn (that's what design really is). So it's risky to do anything new but people do anyhow and despite the odds they win sometimes and we are riding around in the refined results of those successful ventures of the 1940s, 1960 etc.
What are *we* doing now, about the things people will be relying on in the 2020s, other than sitting back and feeling smug?
People who take risks and fail and try again have my respect.
I don't think he was rich off the profits of his airship work. It would appear that what blimp industry there is owes quite a lot to him - his designs are flying out there right now.
I am amazed at the scorn people pour on any attempt at doing something different. It's so incredibly unintelligent and yet the people on this forum cannot be stupid.
Designing aircraft is not a job for idiots who can't work out the average wind speed in Afghanistan. What they do is risky because you start out not knowing everything and the job is to learn (that's what design really is). So it's risky to do anything new but people do anyhow and despite the odds they win sometimes and we are riding around in the refined results of those successful ventures of the 1940s, 1960 etc.
What are *we* doing now, about the things people will be relying on in the 2020s, other than sitting back and feeling smug?
People who take risks and fail and try again have my respect.
Northrop Grumman wins LEMV
Cardington is going to get real busy shortly
Photo Release -- Northrop Grumman Awarded $517 Million Agreement for U.S. Army Airship With Unblinking Eye (NYSE:NOC)
News Releases
Photo Release -- Northrop Grumman Awarded $517 Million Agreement for U.S. Army Airship With Unblinking Eye
MELBOURNE, Fla., BETHPAGE, N.Y., and LONDON, June 14, 2010 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- A new hybrid airship weapons system, just larger than the length of a football field, will take to the skies in just 18 months to provide an unblinking, persistent eye for more than three weeks at a time to aid U.S. Army troops in Afghanistan, according to Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) officials.
The company today announced it has been awarded a $517 million (£350.6 million) agreement to develop up to three Long Endurance Multi-Intelligence Vehicle (LEMV) systems for the U.S. Army. Northrop Grumman has designed a system with plug-and-play capability to readily integrate into the Army's existing common ground station command centers and ground troops in forward operating bases—the main objective to provide U.S. warfighters with persistent ISR capability to increase awareness of the ever changing battlefield.
A photo accompanying this release is available at Northrop Grumman - Photo Gallery
"This opportunity leverages our longstanding leadership positions in developing innovative unmanned air vehicles, C4ISR weapon systems, and leading edge systems integration, and moves Northrop Grumman into this rapidly emerging market space of airships for the military and homeland defense arenas," said Gary Ervin, corporate vice president and president of Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems sector.
Under the agreement, awarded by the U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command, Northrop Grumman will design, develop and test a long-duration hybrid airship system within an 18-month time period, and then transport the asset to the Middle East for military assessment.
"It is critical that our warfighters are equipped with more enabling integrated ISR capability to tackle today's and tomorrow's conflicts," said Alan Metzger, Northrop Grumman LEMV program manager. "Our offering supports the Army's Joint Military Utility Assessment that this disruptive innovation must meet the Army's objective of a persistent unblinking stare while providing increased operational utility to battlefield commanders. Part of our innovative offering includes open architecture design in the payload bay to allow sensor changes by service personnel in the field."
LEMV will sustain altitudes of 20,000 feet for a three-week period, and it will operate within national and international airspace. It will be forward-located to support extended geostationary operations from austere operating locations using beyond-line-of-sight command and control.
Northrop Grumman has teamed with Hybrid Air Vehicles, Ltd. of the United Kingdom using its HAV304 platform, Warwick Mills, ILC Dover, AAI Corporation, SAIC, and a team of technology leaders from 18 U.S. states to build LEMV. Northrop Grumman will provide system integration expertise and flight and ground control operations to safely take off and land the unmanned vehicle for worldwide operations.
Northrop Grumman Corporation is a leading global security company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in aerospace, electronics, information systems, shipbuilding and technical services to government and commercial customers worldwide. Please visit www.northropgrumman.com for more information.
Photo Release -- Northrop Grumman Awarded $517 Million Agreement for U.S. Army Airship With Unblinking Eye (NYSE:NOC)
News Releases
Photo Release -- Northrop Grumman Awarded $517 Million Agreement for U.S. Army Airship With Unblinking Eye
MELBOURNE, Fla., BETHPAGE, N.Y., and LONDON, June 14, 2010 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- A new hybrid airship weapons system, just larger than the length of a football field, will take to the skies in just 18 months to provide an unblinking, persistent eye for more than three weeks at a time to aid U.S. Army troops in Afghanistan, according to Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) officials.
The company today announced it has been awarded a $517 million (£350.6 million) agreement to develop up to three Long Endurance Multi-Intelligence Vehicle (LEMV) systems for the U.S. Army. Northrop Grumman has designed a system with plug-and-play capability to readily integrate into the Army's existing common ground station command centers and ground troops in forward operating bases—the main objective to provide U.S. warfighters with persistent ISR capability to increase awareness of the ever changing battlefield.
A photo accompanying this release is available at Northrop Grumman - Photo Gallery
"This opportunity leverages our longstanding leadership positions in developing innovative unmanned air vehicles, C4ISR weapon systems, and leading edge systems integration, and moves Northrop Grumman into this rapidly emerging market space of airships for the military and homeland defense arenas," said Gary Ervin, corporate vice president and president of Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems sector.
Under the agreement, awarded by the U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command, Northrop Grumman will design, develop and test a long-duration hybrid airship system within an 18-month time period, and then transport the asset to the Middle East for military assessment.
"It is critical that our warfighters are equipped with more enabling integrated ISR capability to tackle today's and tomorrow's conflicts," said Alan Metzger, Northrop Grumman LEMV program manager. "Our offering supports the Army's Joint Military Utility Assessment that this disruptive innovation must meet the Army's objective of a persistent unblinking stare while providing increased operational utility to battlefield commanders. Part of our innovative offering includes open architecture design in the payload bay to allow sensor changes by service personnel in the field."
LEMV will sustain altitudes of 20,000 feet for a three-week period, and it will operate within national and international airspace. It will be forward-located to support extended geostationary operations from austere operating locations using beyond-line-of-sight command and control.
Northrop Grumman has teamed with Hybrid Air Vehicles, Ltd. of the United Kingdom using its HAV304 platform, Warwick Mills, ILC Dover, AAI Corporation, SAIC, and a team of technology leaders from 18 U.S. states to build LEMV. Northrop Grumman will provide system integration expertise and flight and ground control operations to safely take off and land the unmanned vehicle for worldwide operations.
Northrop Grumman Corporation is a leading global security company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in aerospace, electronics, information systems, shipbuilding and technical services to government and commercial customers worldwide. Please visit www.northropgrumman.com for more information.
Compare this to Global Hawk ... which, if you outfit (X) of them in an operational theatre, are able to relieve on another and remain on station for quite a long time ... and at a somewhat higher alt then 20K.
The US Army, however, appears to want such a blimp to be controlled by the Ground Commander, rather than having to share it with the Joint Forces Air Commander, and for that matter, National Agencies, who all vie for mission priority on such birds as Global Hawk.
I am modestly surprised that this got funding, as it seems to me a turn away from Joint Force Capability and looks more like single-service-blinders-on-stovepipe-acquisition.
That said, a three week dwell time for your eye in the sky sure sounds sweet, if it's achievable.
The US Army, however, appears to want such a blimp to be controlled by the Ground Commander, rather than having to share it with the Joint Forces Air Commander, and for that matter, National Agencies, who all vie for mission priority on such birds as Global Hawk.
I am modestly surprised that this got funding, as it seems to me a turn away from Joint Force Capability and looks more like single-service-blinders-on-stovepipe-acquisition.
That said, a three week dwell time for your eye in the sky sure sounds sweet, if it's achievable.
Global Hawk flies pretty slow. If you consider the altitude it flies in mission, the difference between that and a stationary blimp at 20K doesn't strike me as great enough to matter.
Total mission payload is a huge advantage for the blimp.
Total mission payload is a huge advantage for the blimp.
Green, I suspect they first need to prove the concept at a practical level, then they'll figure out the deployment wrinkles. Rather tough to hide a balloon that big, unless you deflate it between missions.
Which they might do.
Which they might do.
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Lonewolf,
Pretty slow makes no difference at all. The problem is the need to orbit, thus losing the required aspect. Many times you would wish to maintain a certain viewpoint, and that is very tricky with a uav. Also, an orbit, which generally has to be around the target of interest does give away what you are looking at, whereas a stationary position leaves a much larger area of possible interest for the ememy to wonder about.
Pretty slow makes no difference at all. The problem is the need to orbit, thus losing the required aspect. Many times you would wish to maintain a certain viewpoint, and that is very tricky with a uav. Also, an orbit, which generally has to be around the target of interest does give away what you are looking at, whereas a stationary position leaves a much larger area of possible interest for the ememy to wonder about.
Tourist, that's a good point (aspect) depending on what the collection requirement is.
JASO,
yes, but a blimp can orbit if required. A UAV cannot stop. (at least not Global Hawk)
yes, but a blimp can orbit if required. A UAV cannot stop. (at least not Global Hawk)
I reckon the verdict in 18 months time will be "snake oil" (see above) and the US Army will be $517M worse off.
'Nuff said...
There was a piece in Economist recently (or was it Scientific American?) about blimps waaaaaaay up there (considerably above 20K) and how the normal problem of pressure differential leading to baloon failure was being approached, and possibly resolved. The sketch in the article showed a cigar/lozenge shaped, twin hull looking thing.
The air currents up there (plasma currents) are not quite the problem one experiences at the lower altitudes.
Be interesting to see if that is one of the solution sets the Army tries for this program.
The air currents up there (plasma currents) are not quite the problem one experiences at the lower altitudes.
Be interesting to see if that is one of the solution sets the Army tries for this program.
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Where does this 60-70 kts rubbish come from?
I'm not saying it never happens out there, but rarely in my experience, and all aircraft have their weather limitations. At least the blimp won't have to worry about bad weather for landing. It'll just stay up till it gets better.
"runway black, say endurance?"
"about another week....."
I'm not saying it never happens out there, but rarely in my experience, and all aircraft have their weather limitations. At least the blimp won't have to worry about bad weather for landing. It'll just stay up till it gets better.
"runway black, say endurance?"
"about another week....."
Where does this 60-70 kts rubbish come from?
See post #12 of this thread and you will see that the wind on 4 Jan 10 at FL240 was 75kts (I know because I posted it!). Today, at 12Z 16 Jun 10, it was 45kts at FL240. Having flown for 6 weeks over AFG between FL240 to FL290, I know that the wind varies from 10kts to 75kts. Also, if you want to know how much the wind varies in AFG, and how difficult it is to forecast, ask the C-130J mates about their para-supply drops and the use of PADS. I've seen local winds 180degs out from the forecast in the USV and UGV areas due to topography and thermal effects.
Take a look at this website over a year or so and you will soon pick up the trend... Constant Pressure Maps
(By the way, you need to select 400hPa for FL240 and the SE Asia chart).
On the endurance argument the LEMV needs fuel to stay up - If you run out of fuel then you go down - simples! To stay at "max chat" (70kts) then you run out of fuel fast and your 3 week endurance reduces to less than 3 days!
This is exactly what the US Navy found out when they tried to make lighter-than-air work last time this idea was "dreamt up", this time for maritime surveillance.
"Snake Oil", I say again "Snake Oil"...Warning!
LJ
PS. Here's a video on PADS - YouTube - WatchBFBSReports's Channel
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 16th Jun 2010 at 21:55.
As a "Tourist" I'm surprised you've never heard of the "Seistan" or "the winds of 120 days" that can blow up to 100mph for up to 4 months between May and Sep in Eastern Iran and South West Afghanistan - all at ground level 
Here's a picture
The B Word
Here's a picture
The B Word
So to recap:
These blimps are supposed to stay on station in the same place for about 3 weeks at a time?
They are unmanned?
They only fly at about FL200?
What juicy targets - even easier for an enemy armed with something more than IEDs and RPGs to knock down than drone-swatting.
Snake oil indeed!!
These blimps are supposed to stay on station in the same place for about 3 weeks at a time?
They are unmanned?
They only fly at about FL200?
What juicy targets - even easier for an enemy armed with something more than IEDs and RPGs to knock down than drone-swatting.
Snake oil indeed!!
Good point BEagle - "Taliban Scrapheap Challenge" here we come!!!
"Colonel Dick" (see below - it was far funnier when he was a Major!) could compete with a Team to stop them...
For our Colonial Cousins "Scrapheap Challenge" is the UK version of "Junkyard Wars".
The B Word
"Colonel Dick" (see below - it was far funnier when he was a Major!) could compete with a Team to stop them...
For our Colonial Cousins "Scrapheap Challenge" is the UK version of "Junkyard Wars".
The B Word