WSO or OBSERVERS?? A heads up....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
jordan, afaik pilots are being recruite dto age 38 whereas WSO only for 12 years. Assimilation is a remote possibility bearing in mind you would be in a minority compared with pilots and all other branches. As for PA Spine, why? There would be virutally no WSO slots.
I would hazard a guess that there will be some positions where the intellectual disciplines of a WSO are in demand but very few as pure WSO.
I would hazard a guess that there will be some positions where the intellectual disciplines of a WSO are in demand but very few as pure WSO.
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Such information is hard to acquire from the outside looking in with limited contacts.
My personal opinion is that Pilot, WSO and even WSOp are strong careers for the foreseeable future as well as Observer in the RN.
At worst one could argue that a 12 years commission as (in a perfect world) a FJ GR4 WSO with 2-3 frontline tours will be a good (but shortish) career.
I believe it would put a person in a strong position to move into another branch, command, QWSI or even off into the civil aviation sector.
At present 38 (Pilot) for me is only 1 year more than the WSO commission and buy the time I could potentially enter they will equal out.
Surely there are many more negatives that positives still for these profession?
My personal opinion is that Pilot, WSO and even WSOp are strong careers for the foreseeable future as well as Observer in the RN.
At worst one could argue that a 12 years commission as (in a perfect world) a FJ GR4 WSO with 2-3 frontline tours will be a good (but shortish) career.
I believe it would put a person in a strong position to move into another branch, command, QWSI or even off into the civil aviation sector.
At present 38 (Pilot) for me is only 1 year more than the WSO commission and buy the time I could potentially enter they will equal out.
Surely there are many more negatives that positives still for these profession?
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Names matter
Redesignating the Navigator as WSO was not a good idea - it conveyed a narrowing of the professional/ operational scope of the job. The Navigator (WSO) is a full participant in the combat role; and must be given his due in operational command posts. The Observer in the RN does not seem to suffer from such discrimination.
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Is the role of Navigator now dead in the RAF?
Are all aircraft by two or three pilots where as before they would have been crewed by one or two pilots plus a nav.
For example VC10, Tristar, Chinook and the Merlin HC3. The Benson website tells of the crew being 1 pilot and 1 nav.
Are all aircraft by two or three pilots where as before they would have been crewed by one or two pilots plus a nav.
For example VC10, Tristar, Chinook and the Merlin HC3. The Benson website tells of the crew being 1 pilot and 1 nav.
Right! Here are the latest out-of-service dates (OSDs) of RAF aicraft with WSO(N)s on them all of which from open-source internet:
Tornado GR4/4a 2025
E-3D Sentry 2025
MR2 2010
REAPER (UOR) 2014 - assuming "5yr rolling campaign plan"
VC-10 2013
New Capabililty's with WSO(N)s In-Service-Dates (ISDs)
Nimrod MRA4 2010 - there are 2x WSOs required!
RC-135 RJ 2012/3 (TBC) - sometimes with 2x WSOs
Future "Reaper Replacement" 2015-17+
TARANIS/UCAS 2025+
Therefore, I disagree with the end of "the end of the WSO is nigh" banter from some of the posters on this thread.
Sadly, the WSO(N) is no longer used on Rotary Wing RAF aircraft apart from a few left over from the previous policy. There are a few on SAR helos, but, unless there is a change in policy then the RW avenue is closed (for now! We have been around this buoy once before!).
So, I would say go for it - if you're 25 then there should still be something for you to fly well past your 18/40 pension point.
All the very best of luck with your application.
The B Word
PS - BTW, the MRA4 ain't all that bad a job!
Tornado GR4/4a 2025
E-3D Sentry 2025
MR2 2010
REAPER (UOR) 2014 - assuming "5yr rolling campaign plan"
VC-10 2013
New Capabililty's with WSO(N)s In-Service-Dates (ISDs)
Nimrod MRA4 2010 - there are 2x WSOs required!
RC-135 RJ 2012/3 (TBC) - sometimes with 2x WSOs
Future "Reaper Replacement" 2015-17+
TARANIS/UCAS 2025+
Therefore, I disagree with the end of "the end of the WSO is nigh" banter from some of the posters on this thread.
Sadly, the WSO(N) is no longer used on Rotary Wing RAF aircraft apart from a few left over from the previous policy. There are a few on SAR helos, but, unless there is a change in policy then the RW avenue is closed (for now! We have been around this buoy once before!).
So, I would say go for it - if you're 25 then there should still be something for you to fly well past your 18/40 pension point.
All the very best of luck with your application.
The B Word
PS - BTW, the MRA4 ain't all that bad a job!
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And Shadow R1... They have a short term posting for WSO's I believe..
I think the point to make is that come a few years time (5-7 imo) there will be little to no FJ WSO's...
And, since I'm a better man, I could see Sentry's going out of service either after 2012 Olympics or 2014 Commonwealths...
I think the point to make is that come a few years time (5-7 imo) there will be little to no FJ WSO's...
And, since I'm a better man, I could see Sentry's going out of service either after 2012 Olympics or 2014 Commonwealths...
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So this leads me to the one of the main points I have.
Will the RN crew the Merlin HC3 of the new CHF with 2 pilots (like they do in the RAF) or will they crew them with 1 Pilot and 1 Observer like they RN currently do with their Merlin Fleet?
Also what is the likely hood that the crossover Merlins will have any upgraded avionics, defensive suites or weaponry.
Will the RN crew the Merlin HC3 of the new CHF with 2 pilots (like they do in the RAF) or will they crew them with 1 Pilot and 1 Observer like they RN currently do with their Merlin Fleet?
Also what is the likely hood that the crossover Merlins will have any upgraded avionics, defensive suites or weaponry.
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Mk 3 Merlins under the RN will not be carrying Observers.
Observers are all about weapon systems and radars and tactical control.
The Mk 3 does not have these things for obvious reasons.
The Mk3s would be flown by the Junglies probably twin pilot plus aircrewman or I suppose single pilot plus aircrewman.
"upgraded avionics, defensive suites or weaponry"
Not sure what you mean.
Nothing wrong with what it has for its role.
Observers are all about weapon systems and radars and tactical control.
The Mk 3 does not have these things for obvious reasons.
The Mk3s would be flown by the Junglies probably twin pilot plus aircrewman or I suppose single pilot plus aircrewman.
"upgraded avionics, defensive suites or weaponry"
Not sure what you mean.
Nothing wrong with what it has for its role.
getsometimein & DaveyBoy,
My apologies...although one of those is a UOR with a short OSD at present (depending on how AFG goes!!). However, it strengthens the argument about the future of WSO(N)s and WSO(AEO)s.
All,
As for WSO(N)s back on CH-47s...I'd never say never!
So, in answer to the original Q; a couple of tours on GR4 followed by an air ISTAR tour, maybe promotion followed by a Flt Cdr tour on an ISTAR platform or the up and coming Unmanned Systems. In the Staff College "melting pot" and, hey, what do you know? "jordanpolonijo" is a Sqn Cdr in 2025 with at least 5-6 options available (MRA4, ASTOR, TARANIS, REAPER+, SHADOW+ or even a RW sqn?).
There appears to be lots of opportunity left for WSOs in the next 20yrs (who knows what we'll be flying in 40yrs time when the oil starts to get scarce?!!).
The B Word
My apologies...although one of those is a UOR with a short OSD at present (depending on how AFG goes!!). However, it strengthens the argument about the future of WSO(N)s and WSO(AEO)s.
All,
As for WSO(N)s back on CH-47s...I'd never say never!
So, in answer to the original Q; a couple of tours on GR4 followed by an air ISTAR tour, maybe promotion followed by a Flt Cdr tour on an ISTAR platform or the up and coming Unmanned Systems. In the Staff College "melting pot" and, hey, what do you know? "jordanpolonijo" is a Sqn Cdr in 2025 with at least 5-6 options available (MRA4, ASTOR, TARANIS, REAPER+, SHADOW+ or even a RW sqn?).
There appears to be lots of opportunity left for WSOs in the next 20yrs (who knows what we'll be flying in 40yrs time when the oil starts to get scarce?!!).
The B Word
years of service with a crew of 2... until a load of FJ WSO needed jobs that was...
Why would you want to use WSO/WSOps? We don't have the trg system in place to train enough Pilots. Otherwise, at the extreme of the preceding argument, you may as well crew the Puma with 3 Pilots and get rid of the crewman!
Here is a picture of one of the first RW Navs (from the early 90s at Finningley) accepting command of 78 Sqn at Benson - it just goes to show that the route is possible, and that Navs can hack it within the RW world.
LJ
Hi Leon,
long time no see
Navs add nothing to a RW crew. I flew with one and had to explain how to update the GPS. 2 pilots is a better bet incase 'biggles gets it' and just as capable of finding a field, as are the two monkeys in the back.
That said, ex-navs that made the cut for cross overs have come back as decent pilots, with good CRM and an often wise head when it all goes wrong.
Stay safe fella.
MGD
long time no see
Navs add nothing to a RW crew. I flew with one and had to explain how to update the GPS. 2 pilots is a better bet incase 'biggles gets it' and just as capable of finding a field, as are the two monkeys in the back.
That said, ex-navs that made the cut for cross overs have come back as decent pilots, with good CRM and an often wise head when it all goes wrong.
Stay safe fella.
MGD
MinigunD responds to "WSO(N) on the Chinook would be interesting".
With his charming wit(less) comment' "Only for you. Other than that, they are excess baggage".
Perhaps MGD you should do a bit a research and find out just what Air Commodore Martin Sharp during Gulf War 1. Without him as a Nav IN THE FRONT SEAT things could have turned out a lot differently.
Oh and ps He was OC 18 (B) Sqn a bit later on AS A NAV.
With his charming wit(less) comment' "Only for you. Other than that, they are excess baggage".
Perhaps MGD you should do a bit a research and find out just what Air Commodore Martin Sharp during Gulf War 1. Without him as a Nav IN THE FRONT SEAT things could have turned out a lot differently.
Oh and ps He was OC 18 (B) Sqn a bit later on AS A NAV.
Was it something that a 2nd pilot could not have done?
OKOC-
He was actually OC(*****) Sqn, before becoming a staish somewhere else. Perhaps you could do a bit of research instead of going off half cocked. Have fun in la la land.
MGD
Wotcher MGD
Yes, I have been a bit busy of late!
...I guess this comes down to the fact that you can have "talentless tw@ts" in all branches. I'm pretty sure that OC78 in the picture didn't fall into this category. To further illustrate this, last year in AFG I saw some excellent mini-gun work from a couple of RAF ALMs and then from another one (who was relegated to the GPMG) an inability to "hit a cat's arse with a banjo". All of them were excellent aircrew SNCO/WOs. I've also seen some Navs that have given some Pilots on "staff workup" a damn good "learning" in air-combat-manoeuvring in both the Hawk and the Tornado - I've also seen a Nav overstress a Hawk within 5 secs of being given control (talentless tw@t? Nope, he turned out to be an excellent radar weapons sys operator and QWI).
I've seen some truly excellent aviators (Pilot/Nav/Flt Eng/AEO/ALM/S) in my 20+ yrs in the Service - many of them would have turned their hand to almost any combat aircraft and done a fine job. Then I have also seen some prize pillocks, some of whom have been promoted(!), some of whom I would not trust in my Grandfather's Heinkel Bubble Car!
What, I am trying to say, longwindedly, is that we should consider "best person for the job" and not "best branch" - that, IMHO, is why there have been some fine RW Navs.
All the very best for 2010.
LJ
Yes, I have been a bit busy of late!
I flew with one and had to explain how to update the GPS.
I've seen some truly excellent aviators (Pilot/Nav/Flt Eng/AEO/ALM/S) in my 20+ yrs in the Service - many of them would have turned their hand to almost any combat aircraft and done a fine job. Then I have also seen some prize pillocks, some of whom have been promoted(!), some of whom I would not trust in my Grandfather's Heinkel Bubble Car!
What, I am trying to say, longwindedly, is that we should consider "best person for the job" and not "best branch" - that, IMHO, is why there have been some fine RW Navs.
All the very best for 2010.
LJ