Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Wearing Uniform in London

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Wearing Uniform in London

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 6th Dec 2009, 16:41
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pompey
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bite?

vecvec... really? nice bite though, if it is one.
miniwafu is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 17:29
  #22 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 81
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Bunker Mentality
Why would wearing uniform affect whether you get 1st class travel? Entitlement goes with rank, not clothing..
Not quite. The rules used to be that junior officers necessarily travelling in uniform (ie being seen by Joe Public) would travel 1st Class. We were once give 1st class warrants as we were in flying kit and carrying firearms.

We didn't use they though as they managed to lay AT at the last minute.

The other case was if travelling with troops.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 17:36
  #23 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 81
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by pba_target
STH - it's self drive only now as well, it's in the same circular as no first class rail, no tea and biscuits at meetings, no entertainment etc..
But don't forget the 11 hour rule.

Meeting at 10am-12pm travel 3 hrs each way.

Factor in 60 minutes to do DI on hire car, allow time in hand and 20 minute break at 0800 so depart at 0600.

Go to lunch at 1230 - one hour break.

20 minute tea break at 1530. Arrive home at 1650.

But if your day is just 10 minutes longer you will transgress the safe driving rules that you break at your peril! In theory therefore you need a night stop even if in the next village to home.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 17:59
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Middle England
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
...but don't be expected to feed very well in the village night stop! Latest round of 'efficiencies' includes reducing the 'capped actuals' from £27ish to £26ish per day for the 3 meals. So actually taking money from the serviceman now!
Jumping_Jack is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 18:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The Roman Empire
Posts: 2,452
Received 72 Likes on 33 Posts
Well no doubt it won't be long before somebody says...."if you don't like it, you can always leave".....

Which, if you elect to do, considering almost everyone is predicting some sort of manpower (or should that be personpower?) cuts in MOD strength next year, will no doubt be welcomed by our lords and masters?
Biggus is online now  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 18:55
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: in my combat underpants
Age: 53
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
But if your day is just 10 minutes longer you will transgress the safe driving rules
Nice try, but you are out of date. I will check, but ISTR that you are allowed 8 hrs driving in a 13 hr duty day once a week now.
Mr C Hinecap is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 19:33
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,817
Received 270 Likes on 109 Posts
Factor in 60 minutes to do DI on hire car
YGBSM, as they say! Petrol - enough (do remember that diesel is not an officer's fuel!), Oil - OK, Water - OK, lights - OK, tyres - OK. Should take about 5 min max. Then punch destination into GPS and off you go.

And who on Earth needs a 20 min tea break after a mere 2 hours driving having had an hour for lunch immediately beforehand?
BEagle is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 20:37
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Self Drive? Only if your vehicle is insured for business use. And Handbrake House have been known to ask for proof before authorising JPA fuel and/or subsistence claims. And no, you can't claim for the increased premiums to upgrade your insurance. MT and driver the way forward.
Grabbers is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 07:57
  #29 (permalink)  
Cunning Artificer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I was slightly surprised, when reading an account of the goings on in Bentley Priory during 1940 by an AC1 who manned the communications office. He said that the officers all wore lounge suits, except when going out on staff visits or on "parade" days such as Armistice Day and the King's birthday. Only other ranks wore uniform at Fighter Command HQ. I don't know if that was the norm in other Headquarters or for the other two services. We're talking about active operations here, not day-to-day peacetime paper shuffling.

The movies of course, always show HQs manned by officers suitably clad in number 1's and their airships wearing dress cords. (... and all the WAAFs have their legs on the right way up as well. )
Blacksheep is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 08:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 77
Posts: 3,896
Received 16 Likes on 4 Posts
Personally I think that civvies should remain the norm in London. We had a thread about sloppy wearing of uniform in public a while back and it was depressing how many thought that hats were optional, mixed dress not a problem and who thought it was ok to do the weekly Tesco's shop in No 1 (hatless of course). Unless there is a return to former standards (getting into full moaning old git mode here) we should stick to civilian clothes.
Tankertrashnav is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 12:22
  #31 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 81
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by BEagle
And who on Earth needs a 20 min tea break after a mere 2 hours driving having had an hour for lunch immediately beforehand?
I was of course refering to self-drive HIRE car when MT rules apply including the mandatory 20 minute breaks etc.

As for 11 or 13 hours, these are maximum. The time may be reduced depending on your personal health (it may have been a very early start or a long day the day before) or traffic and weather conditions.

As mentioned, for your own car you will only get the standard mileage rate AND need business insurance. If you try and press the 40p/mile route, certainly over about 100 miles, it will be hire car or bus(t).
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 16:05
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,817
Received 270 Likes on 109 Posts
'Use in connection with employer's business' doesn't actually cost very much. When I first started working for a civilian employer on a part-time consultancy basis, I checked whether driving to the airport counted as 'use in connection with employer's business' - of course they said it did. By that token using your car to drive to Brize to catch a flight out to the desert sun probably counts the same.... But the insurance company only added a small extra to the premium, so it was worth being honest.

Mileage rates? If you work for any half-decent employer and tell them that it's cheaper than the alternative, they should allow it. Twice this year I've used my own car for 1500 mile trips on the continent rather than leaving it at an airport car park for 2 weeks at a time - and that's also meant I haven't needed a hire car whilst away. Ferry, hotel and mileage all paid for without a murmur - why does the military make such simple things so needlessly complicated?



I hope the 'self drive' MT you get these days is better than the rubbish I remember - such as a Chevette estate with a collapsed driver's seat and a Mini to drive to London with no rear view mirror ("It's on demand, sir....").
BEagle is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 16:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What does PUS' note actually say? I have heard there are travel bans but who originated it and what does it say? All I have is rumour again! Are MPs banned from travel too?
navibrator is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 17:12
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Awaiting Redundancies
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Letter from PUS and CDS to all staff:
DEPARTMENTAL FINANCIAL POSITION
You will be aware that the Department is facing extremely tough financial times.
There are a number of reasons why the position this year is worse than before -we have recruited more Service personnel than in previous years, and secured Service pay rises above the rate of inflation, a weak sterling exchange rate has a big effect on our budget, we have sold less of our estate in a depressed property market, there has been continued cost growth on some equipment projects. All of this has to be paid for.
The scale of the challenge is such that it cannot be dealt with routinely -either through our regular Planning Rounds or usual in-year financial management action. As a result, the Defence Board and leaders across the Department have had to take a series of tough decisions aimed at bringing our in-year finances back into balance. Many of you will have already felt the impact of some of these.
We have not taken these decisions lightly. In all cases we have aimed to ensure that savings made do not impact on operations in Afghanistan. And we have taken the advice of budget holders to ensure that the measures we take are the least painful of those available both in terms of their outputs and the overall objectives of defence.
But despite the actions taken so far, we are not yet in a position to balance the books for the rest of the year. The Defence Board has decided that it is necessary to take a further package of pan-Defence savings, which have since been endorsed by the Secretary of State.
We need to dig deeper in order to produce greater savings. And we need to apply controls more consistently in the interests of fairness as some areas are currently doing more than others. We are therefore introducing with immediate effect the restrictions on travel, external recruitment and overtime set out in the attachment to this letter, which will apply across the Department to Service and Civilian personnel at all ranks and grades. We have informally consulted the national Trades Unions about them.
We recognise that some of these restrictions might make it harder for you to do your job, and also that some of these measures cut across entitlements. But if we overspend our budget this year, it will make next year even more difficult. The wider economic situation means that we will remain in a difficult financial position for some time to come, and we need to plan for that.
We need to focus our work and resources in line with the direction set out in the Strategy for Defence, and above all on success in Afghanistan, which is the main effort for Defence. Taking these steps, unwelcome though they might be, will help us to do so.
The Defence Board will continue to monitor closely the in-year financial position and review the effect of all saving measures implemented, as well as the prospects for the next financial year. We will keep you informed.
PUS CDS
AdanaKebab is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 17:14
  #35 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 81
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by BEagle
I hope the 'self drive' MT you get these days is better than the rubbish I remember - such as a Chevette estate with a collapsed driver's seat and a Mini to drive to London with no rear view mirror ("It's on demand, sir....").
There is no self-drive MT any longer. You might be able to 'borrow' a staff car if the incumbent is away or agrees, otherwise it is a hire car. Once catch was the hire car must be returned full of fuel. At least you don't have to wash it.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 17:33
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Walter's Ash
Age: 59
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With Immediate Effect - Travel, Recruitment and Overtime Restrictions

Travel
All travel should be minimised wherever possible, with use of e-mail, telephone and video conferencing instead.
If travel is necessary, the cheapest/most cost effective available means should be used, and the number of people attending meetings and events from a single area kept to an absolute minimum.
Rail travel should be standard class, not first class. The exception, to be authorised by line managers, is if by booking ahead a first class fare can be obtained for less than the flexible standard fare. Booking standard class tickets ahead of time can be even more economical.
There will be a strong presumption against non-operational overseas travel. Apart from block travel as part of training exercises (where there is an assumption that this will be already planned to be in the most cost effective manner) or entitlements to home to duty travel for people who are temporarily deployed overseas, exceptions will have to be applied for. Any such exceptions, which should be kept to an absolute unavoidable minimum, will require approval, as follows:
- For personnel up to and including 1*, by Command Secretaries and equivalents; or by other 2* officers or civil servants as specifically delegated by TLB Holders for this purpose;
- For 2* and above, by the Top Level Budget Holder; and
- For TLB Holders, Board members and Ministers, by 2nd PUS or VCDS.
There is to be no use of first class for overseas travel. Business class overseas travel will only be permitted for flights of a duration of over 4 hours (or where special dispensation has been agreed in accordance with the exceptions procedure above).
Travel that has already been planned or booked should be re-examined to see if it can be cancelled or the class of travel reduced. Where savings can be made, they should be.

External Recruitment
With immediate effect all external recruitment of civilian staff including agency staff and manpower substitution should cease.
Exemptions should be granted only for posts that are vital to supporting current operations, Business Resilience (including health and safety, security and business continuity), or are otherwise business critical. They will require approval as follows:
- For recruitment to posts below 1* level, by Command Secretaries and equivalents (see list below);
- For posts at 1* and above, by 2nd PUS or VCDS, consulting TLB Holders.
In the case of exceptions made for agency staff, the delegated authorities should satisfy themselves that no suitable person from the local Redeployment Pool could be made available in the required timeframe.
Current external recruitments should be reviewed in light of the above criteria and be put on hold as appropriate unless a point of no return has been reached.

Overtime
Some staff have contracts which require them to work overtime. Apart from this category of employees, all overtime must be explicitly authorised in advance. Command Secretaries and their equivalents will delegate authority to do this as appropriate. Those authorising overtime should be guided by the principles that overtime should generally only be allowed where:
- It is incurred in direct support of current operations and is claimable against the Reserve (i.e. from HM Treasury);
- It is essential for Business Resilience (including health and safety, security and business continuity) or are otherwise business critical;
- Posts demand routinely long hours such that Time Off In Lieu does not represent a realistic alternative because it could not be taken.
In all cases, overtime should be kept to a minimum and scrutinised carefully by line managers, and Time Off In Lieu considered as an alternative wherever possible. However, payment for untaken annual leave will not be made where this results.

Travelling Time
As for overtime, payment of travelling time will only be allowed if authorised explicitly in advance. Command Secretaries and their equivalents will delegate authority to do this as appropriate. In all cases, payment of travelling overtime should be kept to a minimum and scrutinised carefully by line managers, and Time Off In Lieu considered as an alternative wherever possible. However, payment for untaken annual leave will not be made where this results

Entertainment
No new official entertainment should be arranged. Exemptions to this should be sought as follows:
- For cases below 1* level, by Command Secretaries and equivalents;
- For cases at 1* and above, by 2nd PUS or VCDS, consulting TLB Holders.
SL Hardly-Worthitt is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 19:08
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,817
Received 270 Likes on 109 Posts
All travel should be minimised wherever possible, with use of e-mail, telephone and video conferencing instead.
If travel is necessary, the cheapest/most cost effective available means should be used, and the number of people attending meetings and events from a single area kept to an absolute minimum.
Rail travel should be standard class, not first class. The exception, to be authorised by line managers, is if by booking ahead a first class fare can be obtained for less than the flexible standard fare. Booking standard class tickets ahead of time can be even more economical.
Does the tit who wrote that "We're broke, but this'll hurt you more than it'll hurt me" nonsense know that, in the real world, 'should' is only a recommendation? 'Shall', 'must' or 'are to' are mandatory requirements.

How can there be an exception to a recommendation?
BEagle is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 22:59
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I normally prefer to sit and read the posts on this site rather than post myself, however.....

1. I believe that QRs authorise 1st class travel for all ranks if they are required to wear uniform in the course of their duties.

2. The majority of Service personnel in MB will be commissioned and therefore not entitled to civ clothing allowance since they already get tax relief to buy their working rig......

3. Thought that MOD driving rules were a 12 hr duty day, driving for no more than 9hrs, but able to increase to 10hrs once a week......also must have a 45hr rest period once a week and 8hrs off between shifts......which is actaully in line with Service working time directive as laid down in DIN............I digress, thats another thread for another day!

4. The most galling part of this however is from the unions, whilst the missive signed by 2nd PUS & CDS states that "we have informally agreed this with the unions".....the unions released a statement within about 45 mins, and I paraphrase here, "oh no you haven't, 1st class travel is in the T&Cs for certain grades and we expect that to be respected. If a civil serpent has travel booked not in line with T&Cs then they would be well within their rights to refuse to travel and in this case we would expect no adverse action to be taken against them".....or words to that effect. So once again it will be the Serviceman that bears the brunt of some 'bright' CS idea!

Personally, I'm not sure that hitting T&S is the way forward since it is such a small percentage of our budget and won't dent our deficit, but will upset alot of people, pushing some over the edge to leave - there again perhaps thats the idea.
Once A Brat is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2009, 00:48
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tennessee - Smoky Mountains
Age: 55
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
On the business of first class rail travel, why is that provision still enshrined in whichever regulations? This is not the 1920s. Why is it necessary at all?

Changes of ToS are not liked, of course, but if the "free medical care for life in a military hospital" promise I signed up for can be torn up, why not the rail warrants too? One is a damned sight more important than the other, in the general scheme of things, and it is nothing to do with train tickets!

Same goes for lots of other aspects of Service life. Why does the MOD maintain three different scales of Mess & MQ furniture, for example? Officers' dining tables are of a higher grade than Sgts' ones. Surely the most important specifications for a dining table are a) suitability for purpose and b) durability. I'd be hard pressed to understand how a dining table could be differentiated on either ground.

The MOD needs to move with the times.
Roadster280 is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2009, 18:07
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Darling - where are we?
Posts: 2,580
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Dear PUS,

With regard to your recent missive, I trust you will approve my reading it home whilst on leave - I have used my own PC and internet connection, thus saving my Parent Unit several pounds in the cost of HTD and electricity. However, whilst I broadly agree that we are broke, and if we had been a civillian company, would have been declared bankrupt months if not years ago (and you most likely barred from entering your name on the list of Company Directors), there are a number of points I would like to seek clarification on.

You will be aware that the Department is facing extremely tough financial times.
We had noticed. Then again, we’ve been noticing this for at least the last 12 or so years, but thanks for finally removing your head from the sand and finally pointing it out to us.

There are a number of reasons why the position this year is worse than before -we have recruited more Service personnel than in previous years, The military recruiting military personnel – please tell me you weren’t surprised by this? Or would you prefer it if we recruited civilians instead and became a PMC? and secured Service pay rises above the rate of inflation, a weak sterling exchange rate has a big effect on our budget, we have sold less of our estate in a depressed property market, there has been continued cost growth on some equipment projects. All of this has to be paid for. If in doubt, blame it on the bankers eh? Well why not, they are to blame for everything else.

The scale of the challenge is such that it cannot be dealt with routinely -either through our regular Planning Rounds or usual in-year financial management action. I wasn’t aware that you actually dealt with financial considerations anyway? I thought you just put on a blindfold, picked a few random capabilities out of a hat for salami slicing and then went to a nice lunch with your chums to discuss which chairs, plasma TVs and modern art work to order for the office. As a result, the Defence Board and leaders across the Department have had to take a series of tough decisions aimed at bringing our in-year finances back into balance. Many of you will have already felt the impact of some of these. They can’t have been that tough – we still have more stars and senior civil servants than we know what to do with.

We have not taken these decisions lightly. In all cases we have aimed to ensure that savings made do not impact on operations in Afghanistan. Just our contingent capability that might just about mean we can defend the Isle of Wight from an invasion by the Isle of Man once we have finished our current adventures. And we have taken the advice of budget holders to ensure that the measures we take are the least painful of those available both in terms of their outputs and the overall objectives of defence. You mean least painful to your attempt to get a directorship once the economy starts looking up.

But despite the actions taken so far, we are not yet in a position to balance the books for the rest of the year. No ****, we’re bankrupt – how is cutting first class travel going to help when standard class is so bloody expensive anyway? The Defence Board has decided that it is necessary to take a further package of pan-Defence savings, which have since been endorsed by the Secretary of State.

We need to dig deeper in order to produce greater savings. Rather you would like US to dig deeper. And we need to apply controls more consistently in the interests of fairness as some areas are currently doing more than others. Can I take it that all personnel across Defence are actually equal? Or are you going to apply these controls in an Orwellian sense of all being equal, just some more equal than others? We are therefore introducing with immediate effect the restrictions on travel, external recruitment and overtime set out in the attachment to this letter, which will apply across the Department to Service and Civilian personnel at all ranks and grades. We have informally consulted the national Trades Unions about them. Who said sod off – it’s in our Ts&Cs and if you do anything to remove our overtime and first class travel, we’re going on strike.

We recognise that some of these restrictions might make it harder for you to do your job, No more than any other hair-brained schemes you have brought in before now and also that some of these measures cut across entitlements. But if we overspend our budget this year, it will make next year even more difficult. So does that mean only one bottle of port with Defence Board lunches? The wider economic situation means that we will remain in a difficult financial position for some time to come, and we need to plan for that. You mean we FINALLY have a plan for something??? Has nobody ever thought of scrapping the J5 role – we never seem to plan for anything, so I’m sure it wouldn’t be missed.We need to focus our work and resources in line with the direction set out in the Strategy for Defence, and above all on success in Afghanistan, which is the main effort for Defence. Taking these steps, unwelcome though they might be, will help us to do so.

The Defence Board will continue to monitor closely the in-year financial position and review the effect of all saving measures implemented, as well as the prospects for the next financial year Whose prospects – Defence’s, ours or yours? We will keep you informed.
PUS CDS

Yours sincerely,

Melchett
Melchett01 is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.