Sorry you're a pax now
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Sorry Beag's et al. Have to disagree, the Feds and Movers are following statute law. It is not them who write the regulations, merely enforce them. Statute law, as you are no doubt aware, is introduced by Parliament. Somewhat outranking our hierarchy.
Should PC Plod or SAC Jobsworth not do their job thoroughly, they could possibly find themselves with a serious offence thrown at them and worst case scenario, possibly a corporate manslaughter charge. That goes for the Captain and CO, so they're protecting their @rses too.
If you think you're above our nation's democratic system, please feel free to say so.
Should PC Plod or SAC Jobsworth not do their job thoroughly, they could possibly find themselves with a serious offence thrown at them and worst case scenario, possibly a corporate manslaughter charge. That goes for the Captain and CO, so they're protecting their @rses too.
If you think you're above our nation's democratic system, please feel free to say so.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Oh dear, DummyRun. Are you having a bad hair day?
Yes, there probably is room for a bit of flexibility on this matter. Perhaps their airships have more important things on their mind than asking the Government to change the air transport security rules. In any case, re-categorising and sub-categorising pax would probably cause more problems and bitching than it resolved.
Incidentally, the "I voz only obeying orders" line is overused, especially out of context. It refers to SS guards, who resorted to the plea, when charged with crimes against humanity. It's difficult to see any similarity between aircrew being temporarily deprived of their aircrew knives and civilians being gassed to death.
Yes, there probably is room for a bit of flexibility on this matter. Perhaps their airships have more important things on their mind than asking the Government to change the air transport security rules. In any case, re-categorising and sub-categorising pax would probably cause more problems and bitching than it resolved.
Incidentally, the "I voz only obeying orders" line is overused, especially out of context. It refers to SS guards, who resorted to the plea, when charged with crimes against humanity. It's difficult to see any similarity between aircrew being temporarily deprived of their aircrew knives and civilians being gassed to death.
Last edited by Scud-U-Like; 11th Mar 2003 at 23:45.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Oh how I giggle when I hear "them's the rules".
Ralf's second para is spot on as those at the coal face are only implementing the orders of those with no idea of the real world. To blithely state that this is somehow a state requirement is absolutely ludicrous.
As a couple of examples of how those in the "big seats" pay lip service to rules etc:-
There is a DCI in force that states the carriage of pax on Albert should only occur when there are "no other practicle means".......yet every flight going to Cyprus seems to have seats booked to it as a matter of course........and there is no other way to get there?
A look at IATA's, the civvy bible on the carriage of Dangerous goods, shows that putting people and bombs on aircraft, or a whole host of other things for that matter, is FORBIDDEN!, but we have produced the JSP335 to circumvent this, and rightly so as we are a military outfit, to enable us to get the job done.
Imagine a civvy carrier approving the carriage of 90 guys fully armed with bullets grenades etc.........I don't think so
So the supposition that because the civvies do it so must we is pants
Nobody yet on here, myself included has questioned the validity of baggage checks to ensure DAC is not being carried however the thread was asking for an explanation on some of the more stupid rulings that seem to be in force.
JohnB's last para lays the blame firmly at the door of OC scuff's but draw your own conclusion.
Question
pax down the back of albert, on route to anywhere attempt to board with either aircrew knives or gerbers, flying to nowhere particulary dangerous, just been fed and probably going to sleep most of the way.
90 young men dowen the back of albert about to face battle for the first time, all armed to the teeth and ready to go, and one or two are, inevetably starting to feel uncertain about what may happen
who's allowed to board
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Ralf's second para is spot on as those at the coal face are only implementing the orders of those with no idea of the real world. To blithely state that this is somehow a state requirement is absolutely ludicrous.
As a couple of examples of how those in the "big seats" pay lip service to rules etc:-
There is a DCI in force that states the carriage of pax on Albert should only occur when there are "no other practicle means".......yet every flight going to Cyprus seems to have seats booked to it as a matter of course........and there is no other way to get there?
A look at IATA's, the civvy bible on the carriage of Dangerous goods, shows that putting people and bombs on aircraft, or a whole host of other things for that matter, is FORBIDDEN!, but we have produced the JSP335 to circumvent this, and rightly so as we are a military outfit, to enable us to get the job done.
Imagine a civvy carrier approving the carriage of 90 guys fully armed with bullets grenades etc.........I don't think so
So the supposition that because the civvies do it so must we is pants
Nobody yet on here, myself included has questioned the validity of baggage checks to ensure DAC is not being carried however the thread was asking for an explanation on some of the more stupid rulings that seem to be in force.
JohnB's last para lays the blame firmly at the door of OC scuff's but draw your own conclusion.
Question
pax down the back of albert, on route to anywhere attempt to board with either aircrew knives or gerbers, flying to nowhere particulary dangerous, just been fed and probably going to sleep most of the way.
90 young men dowen the back of albert about to face battle for the first time, all armed to the teeth and ready to go, and one or two are, inevetably starting to feel uncertain about what may happen
who's allowed to board
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Giggle ye not, ABIW 
I would suggest your analogy is a question of risk assessment.
Decamping troops, without weapons, from an ac into a combat zone, creates a greater risk to the troops' survivability than does allowing them to carry weapons on the ac.
Whereas, allowing 'ordinary' pax to carry weapons onto an ac, creates a risk and removes none.
I would suggest your analogy is a question of risk assessment.
Decamping troops, without weapons, from an ac into a combat zone, creates a greater risk to the troops' survivability than does allowing them to carry weapons on the ac.
Whereas, allowing 'ordinary' pax to carry weapons onto an ac, creates a risk and removes none.
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Chaps oh chaps oh chaps.
Life isn't any more rational on the civvy side of the fence.
I recently was following through to air side a very senior captain and a BT engineer. The captain gets his leatherman taken off him and the BT engineer is allowed through with a feckin big toolbox full of screwdrivers, stanley knives et etc.
Zurich recently, I go thru the scanners, empty my worldly travelling essentials into the tray to be scanned and once through proceed to the shopping area to spend the last of my Swiss francs. What is the first shop I go into selling? Swiss army knives!!
I am an ex mover, I have been where you have been, and seen what you have seen, and been on the same smelly end of the stick as ......
Military air travel will always err on the side of caution when it comes to dealling with the 'Troops' cos at the end of the day, as in any 'Team' environment you try to accomodate the weakest link.
Life isn't any more rational on the civvy side of the fence.
I recently was following through to air side a very senior captain and a BT engineer. The captain gets his leatherman taken off him and the BT engineer is allowed through with a feckin big toolbox full of screwdrivers, stanley knives et etc.
Zurich recently, I go thru the scanners, empty my worldly travelling essentials into the tray to be scanned and once through proceed to the shopping area to spend the last of my Swiss francs. What is the first shop I go into selling? Swiss army knives!!
I am an ex mover, I have been where you have been, and seen what you have seen, and been on the same smelly end of the stick as ......
Military air travel will always err on the side of caution when it comes to dealling with the 'Troops' cos at the end of the day, as in any 'Team' environment you try to accomodate the weakest link.
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Just been sent to somewhere hot and sandy, to have 17 hrs of the jobsworths at South C#*#ny. The muppets decided that my toenail clippers may well be a deadly weapon and removed them to ensure that I didn't attack the crew. Had them put with the sharps to be looked after by a grown adult and be reclaimed; managed to slip my Bick razors through undetected though, which was nice.
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8141........I think you will actually find its the Law to have sharps removed when checking in........you should consider yourself lucky, at least you get them back at the other end. Some people are not so lucky. You may well call Movers jobsworths, but at the end of the day, they are only implementing what is seen as the correct procedure wether you agree with it or not! What would you say if you were sat next to some disturbed acnified Pongo teenager who decided to whip out his knife and stab you just because he had problems and thought it would get him out of going somewhere he didn't want to be? Unfortunately not everyone in the military has common sense, and I'm afraid the reality is that these are the people who have to be spoon fed by the so called jobsworths! As for 17 hours at South C****y, if you ain't happy about it and I know I wouldn't be then why don't you complain?????????
Note how the inadequately-testiculated still hide behind 'them's the rules..........give it 'ere.......'
I was due to attend an anti-hijacking seminar once, so decided to dream up some weapons made from innocent items which would never have aroused the suspicion of the Sicherheitsdienst at the gate. Unfortunately the day job got in the way, so I didn't get to the seminar. But my point would have been that a determined terrorist will be able to threaten the cabin crew or passengers no matter how comprehensive and intrusive the efforts of the bottom-fondling failed wheelclampers playing at security checkers at most civil aerodromes. So flight crews must be trained in how to fight the threat aggressively - not just to lock themselves into the front whilst mayhem takes place in the back.
Not difficult - and no, I b£oody won't tell you what the weapons were made from................
I was due to attend an anti-hijacking seminar once, so decided to dream up some weapons made from innocent items which would never have aroused the suspicion of the Sicherheitsdienst at the gate. Unfortunately the day job got in the way, so I didn't get to the seminar. But my point would have been that a determined terrorist will be able to threaten the cabin crew or passengers no matter how comprehensive and intrusive the efforts of the bottom-fondling failed wheelclampers playing at security checkers at most civil aerodromes. So flight crews must be trained in how to fight the threat aggressively - not just to lock themselves into the front whilst mayhem takes place in the back.
Not difficult - and no, I b£oody won't tell you what the weapons were made from................
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Fight the threat aggresively??????????eh?
I bet all those future terrorists would be really scared at the thought of a loadie armed with a gobbly box..........maybe you could try stoning them to death with apples?
And if flight crews are going to be tackling the terrorists then whose gonna fly the plane? 
I bet all those future terrorists would be really scared at the thought of a loadie armed with a gobbly box..........maybe you could try stoning them to death with apples?
And if flight crews are going to be tackling the terrorists then whose gonna fly the plane?
By operating in the same way that El Al did all those years ago when the terrorist Leila Khaled was overpowered - and their aircraft did not then end up at Dawson's field with the other 3 hi-jacked airliners.......
I understand that the Boeing's pilot was ex-military.....
I understand that the Boeing's pilot was ex-military.....
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From the 'Gateway' magazine foreword
"Looking out over a pan full of Boeing 747s, Antonovs and a variety of charter aircraft in addition to our own, one might be forgiven for thinking this was Heathrow rather thank Brize Norton! This has been one of the busiest periods Brize Norton has ever seen and my major task for this month is to say thank you all those people involved in making it happen. At the forefront have been our Movements staffs. I joined the shifts as they dealt with the second day of a 747-load of passengers being delayed for diplomatic clearance reasons. Standing at the check in desk, I was amazed at how rude passengers could be; how they abused their ranks to vent their frustrations at our men and women; and how they asked for things we could not provide. I was extremely impressed with the way our young and often inexperienced movers dealt with everyone with patience, politeness and a smile – and this was just one day of many. As aircraft went unserviceable or got delayed, loads had to be moved around, re-packed and sorted out, involving everyone working together in a very hard and time consuming task. A big thank you to all the movers – I don’t envy you your jobs!"
"Looking out over a pan full of Boeing 747s, Antonovs and a variety of charter aircraft in addition to our own, one might be forgiven for thinking this was Heathrow rather thank Brize Norton! This has been one of the busiest periods Brize Norton has ever seen and my major task for this month is to say thank you all those people involved in making it happen. At the forefront have been our Movements staffs. I joined the shifts as they dealt with the second day of a 747-load of passengers being delayed for diplomatic clearance reasons. Standing at the check in desk, I was amazed at how rude passengers could be; how they abused their ranks to vent their frustrations at our men and women; and how they asked for things we could not provide. I was extremely impressed with the way our young and often inexperienced movers dealt with everyone with patience, politeness and a smile – and this was just one day of many. As aircraft went unserviceable or got delayed, loads had to be moved around, re-packed and sorted out, involving everyone working together in a very hard and time consuming task. A big thank you to all the movers – I don’t envy you your jobs!"
Yes, it was written in the station magazine for local consumption. He just scored lots of brownie points with his men, at least the movers, by siding against the common enemy - passengers! Even if most of the passengers were polite, he wouldn't haven't impressed anyone by saying so, so maybe he "exaggerated" a little for moral purposes? I don't know, I wasn't there. Good leadership skills maybe!?
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OMG the aircrew are so hard done by they have to go through those terrible ATSy procedures just like the rest of the Military, Have you heard they even make civvies do it before getting on civvie flights....... shock horror!!!!!!
You people really do hold yourselves in high regard dont you
You people really do hold yourselves in high regard dont you
Join Date: Apr 2004
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We hold inept people in lower regard. 
It was a Sqn detachment a few years back. Having arrived at Brize 2.5hrs before the departure time (Brize requires the full 2 hrs check-in), we formed orderly queues (being Brits - Olympic Queuing Champions) at the check-in desks. After the usual complaints to the aircrew who had exceeded their baggage weight limit with their flying kit, the queues were slow to clear. After 2.5 hrs, with 25 or so people not yet checked-in, the movements staff closed the desks because the flight was due to leave (and boy, were they wrong about that). Nice. It was not long before the irate folks still waiting demanded to see the movs offr, who, rightly, ordered the immediate re-opening of the desks. To me, that was not the rigid following of rules brought about by statute law, but stupidity in the name of obstruction.
BTW, the aircraft left several hours late, with no explanation. It did not land in the intended country, as BZN Ops had planned a route for which there was not enough fuel. The co-pilot had also been called into work 4 hrs late, and ran out of crew duty to get the self-loading cargo to its destination. And we were all allowed to experience 2hrs in 40 deg C heat in the cabin on the gorund before being allowed to disembark (thanks to the arrival airfield). I did however, manage to smuggle a small set of nail clippers in my hand-luggage, though.
That's one in the eye for Brize movers - I showed them.
It was a Sqn detachment a few years back. Having arrived at Brize 2.5hrs before the departure time (Brize requires the full 2 hrs check-in), we formed orderly queues (being Brits - Olympic Queuing Champions) at the check-in desks. After the usual complaints to the aircrew who had exceeded their baggage weight limit with their flying kit, the queues were slow to clear. After 2.5 hrs, with 25 or so people not yet checked-in, the movements staff closed the desks because the flight was due to leave (and boy, were they wrong about that). Nice. It was not long before the irate folks still waiting demanded to see the movs offr, who, rightly, ordered the immediate re-opening of the desks. To me, that was not the rigid following of rules brought about by statute law, but stupidity in the name of obstruction.
BTW, the aircraft left several hours late, with no explanation. It did not land in the intended country, as BZN Ops had planned a route for which there was not enough fuel. The co-pilot had also been called into work 4 hrs late, and ran out of crew duty to get the self-loading cargo to its destination. And we were all allowed to experience 2hrs in 40 deg C heat in the cabin on the gorund before being allowed to disembark (thanks to the arrival airfield). I did however, manage to smuggle a small set of nail clippers in my hand-luggage, though.
That's one in the eye for Brize movers - I showed them.
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fixinflyback -
Had exactly the same problems with AT when travelling to the Gulf & back for recent shindigs....
Despite pointing out to the VC10 LM that if I wanted to hijack his a/c I could just take down the fire-axe in the main cabin..it was to no avail...
The problem with the new knife is that it won't open bottles of beer
Had exactly the same problems with AT when travelling to the Gulf & back for recent shindigs....
Despite pointing out to the VC10 LM that if I wanted to hijack his a/c I could just take down the fire-axe in the main cabin..it was to no avail...
The problem with the new knife is that it won't open bottles of beer
I was asked by a nice plod type to put a doc box on the x ray machine - don't think he can have seen much but he seemed well pleased. On the same flight we had all our leathermans removed labelled and bagged because "someone" had, a few days before, started to dismantle albert whilst bored.
Recent trips to interesting areas have proved less bothersome with regard to removing lethal objects like nail clippers and in fact the movements staff were pleasant and kept us informed all the time. Could have been due to the presence on the flight of several scruffy chaps called Fred, Bert and Nosher who had boxes of stuff they wouldn't open.
Did once manage a mixed load of civgas, weapons and ammo (on the man) and white phos grenades. Does this count as a coup against all the members of the flying prevention branches?
Recent trips to interesting areas have proved less bothersome with regard to removing lethal objects like nail clippers and in fact the movements staff were pleasant and kept us informed all the time. Could have been due to the presence on the flight of several scruffy chaps called Fred, Bert and Nosher who had boxes of stuff they wouldn't open.
Did once manage a mixed load of civgas, weapons and ammo (on the man) and white phos grenades. Does this count as a coup against all the members of the flying prevention branches?