Civie Salaries
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Anyhow - now hopefully that that small interlude is over, does anyone else from a non flying related employment (Perhaps someone who works in airport management) have any value to add to the thread.
I find it facinating to hear views from outside of the Military on perceptions of the "Typical": either officer or SNCO/WO.
Please continue - I await in hope...!
I find it facinating to hear views from outside of the Military on perceptions of the "Typical": either officer or SNCO/WO.
Please continue - I await in hope...!
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Interesting thread JP and YWIW.
JP - my first comment was tongue-in-cheek but, hey, you're doing a very good job in making people think before they sign on the dotted line and head off for the supposedly greener grass over there.
YWIW - Got any jobs in 2008 ?? Hopefully I'll have a set of crowns, or maybe more, on my shoulder by then (civvyspeak read Major)an indexed-linked pension, a gratuity of a few quid...and hopefully an MSc in Design of Information Systems to top up the BEng Aero Eng. Gijoe is also available for part-time work in the evenings and could start today
But seriously, JP you hit the nail on the head. I have been a URO and at some units I been to it almost appears to be fashionable to be leaving. It this attitude wise as the world teeters on the edge of a recession ?
Your list of benefits is very comprehensive but didn't list the adv trg side of life. My own case this year: skiing with the French Army in Feb (Free), skiing with the Brits in Austria Mar(£100), sailing for a week in April(£10), planned windsurfing instructors course in August (£25), planned skiing instructors course in December (free)...and yes I do do my day job.
This is aside from the PPL flying which the boys in green subsidise quite well through the SLC scheme and pay me petrol dosh to get there. There's loads there if you only get off of your backside and , firstly, find it and then do it !!
YWIW - project management was involved all of the things above but probably not in the form you're used to.
Just reread this and it really isn't meant to swing the lantern but simply add something else to the debate.
JP - my first comment was tongue-in-cheek but, hey, you're doing a very good job in making people think before they sign on the dotted line and head off for the supposedly greener grass over there.
YWIW - Got any jobs in 2008 ?? Hopefully I'll have a set of crowns, or maybe more, on my shoulder by then (civvyspeak read Major)an indexed-linked pension, a gratuity of a few quid...and hopefully an MSc in Design of Information Systems to top up the BEng Aero Eng. Gijoe is also available for part-time work in the evenings and could start today
But seriously, JP you hit the nail on the head. I have been a URO and at some units I been to it almost appears to be fashionable to be leaving. It this attitude wise as the world teeters on the edge of a recession ?
Your list of benefits is very comprehensive but didn't list the adv trg side of life. My own case this year: skiing with the French Army in Feb (Free), skiing with the Brits in Austria Mar(£100), sailing for a week in April(£10), planned windsurfing instructors course in August (£25), planned skiing instructors course in December (free)...and yes I do do my day job.
This is aside from the PPL flying which the boys in green subsidise quite well through the SLC scheme and pay me petrol dosh to get there. There's loads there if you only get off of your backside and , firstly, find it and then do it !!
YWIW - project management was involved all of the things above but probably not in the form you're used to.
Just reread this and it really isn't meant to swing the lantern but simply add something else to the debate.
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I am ex Mil, Army, and took the jump about 5 years ago after 13 years. Best thing “I” ever did. One of the earlier posts that say it is not the money is true. I was prepared to come out and earn less money just to get away.
Second rate everything, senior management who deny there are any real problems, seems to be the way of the services these days. Trying to manage good people with no support and resources is what forced me to go. I just did not see the point of working long days to achieve F**k all.
I now work as a telecomms consultant, and have done so for 3 years. The money is very good and the work interesting and varied. People say it has no security but I disagree. If you are good at what you do then you will always find work. So there is a very nice life after the military and civvies don’t have such a blinkered view on life as some in the mil do. I miss the Army like a hole in the head
At the end of the day it is an individual choice on whether to stay or go. I guess some people fear climbing out of the cosy mil environment, I did. It is not that bad out here. If you can be successful against the best the mil has to offer and succeed then it is going to be much easier out here where there are a lot less capable people around.
The grass may not always be greener but it sure tastes better
Second rate everything, senior management who deny there are any real problems, seems to be the way of the services these days. Trying to manage good people with no support and resources is what forced me to go. I just did not see the point of working long days to achieve F**k all.
I now work as a telecomms consultant, and have done so for 3 years. The money is very good and the work interesting and varied. People say it has no security but I disagree. If you are good at what you do then you will always find work. So there is a very nice life after the military and civvies don’t have such a blinkered view on life as some in the mil do. I miss the Army like a hole in the head
At the end of the day it is an individual choice on whether to stay or go. I guess some people fear climbing out of the cosy mil environment, I did. It is not that bad out here. If you can be successful against the best the mil has to offer and succeed then it is going to be much easier out here where there are a lot less capable people around.
The grass may not always be greener but it sure tastes better
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Vortex - like everyone else you probably enjoyed the army up until it p****d you off one too many times and then signed on the dotted line. Excuse me if I'm wrong.
But all of the time there are positive sides to staying in I'm going to do it...and when the time comes I'll be off like you.
I'm glad to see you have made a success of the transition to civ div. Were you anything to do with telecoms whilst in ?
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: gijoe ]
But all of the time there are positive sides to staying in I'm going to do it...and when the time comes I'll be off like you.
I'm glad to see you have made a success of the transition to civ div. Were you anything to do with telecoms whilst in ?
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: gijoe ]
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OK,OK folks, cool down! I admit that my post was written after "dining well". Apologies to the wounded.
I only meant to make the point that those who think that they will wave bye-bye to pi$$-poor management when they leave the service are deluding themselves. The services have forgotten more about management than most civvy organisations ever learnt. Civil Service, Banks, Lawyers, Financial advisers, travel agents - one's contacts with them are a farrago of cock-ups - leastways this side of the pond.
It wasn't just my dead mate's airline. I am sure you saw the TV series on Sleazyjet. The episode that sticks in my mind was the one where the flight from Stanstead to Nice was told that there was a problem on the runway at Nice and asked by ATC whether it cold accept a short hold (20/30 mins?). The captain said not and elected to divert to Lyons. No reason given - left to the imagination. At Lyons he discovered that the fuel companies would not honour his credit card, and had to get a Director to phone the fuel company. The flight was 3 hours late into Nice.
I only meant to make the point that those who think that they will wave bye-bye to pi$$-poor management when they leave the service are deluding themselves. The services have forgotten more about management than most civvy organisations ever learnt. Civil Service, Banks, Lawyers, Financial advisers, travel agents - one's contacts with them are a farrago of cock-ups - leastways this side of the pond.
It wasn't just my dead mate's airline. I am sure you saw the TV series on Sleazyjet. The episode that sticks in my mind was the one where the flight from Stanstead to Nice was told that there was a problem on the runway at Nice and asked by ATC whether it cold accept a short hold (20/30 mins?). The captain said not and elected to divert to Lyons. No reason given - left to the imagination. At Lyons he discovered that the fuel companies would not honour his credit card, and had to get a Director to phone the fuel company. The flight was 3 hours late into Nice.
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OH - It is extremely rare, that any of us get shot at.
Last time that happened to an aircraft - anyone like to comment...?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
Danny Boy
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Danny Boy ]
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Danny Boy - excuse my naivete, and thanks for enlightening us.
It seems now that we have a very interesting thread going.
One type of employment that seems very "SPIN" at the moment is Resource Management. Has anyone any experience in this highly competitive line of work and one for which most military officers could do extremely well in their sleep. (My opinion).
Look forward to some further interesting experiences - good and bad.
Best wishes - JP.
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
It seems now that we have a very interesting thread going.
One type of employment that seems very "SPIN" at the moment is Resource Management. Has anyone any experience in this highly competitive line of work and one for which most military officers could do extremely well in their sleep. (My opinion).
Look forward to some further interesting experiences - good and bad.
Best wishes - JP.
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
Yes - for an excellent resource management simulator, get yourself half a dozen plates and half a dozen bamboo canes. Put plates on bamboo canes and spin. Then keep plates spinning whilst:
1. Someone rings you on your mobile.
2. You are ordered to reduce the number of occasions when you are allowed to wiggle the canes in order to save money.
3. You have to complete a risk analysis for hazards caused by falling plates.
4. You are ordered to keep spinning the plates all night, but you won't be allowed the use of any lighting because that's too costly.
Oh for the days when we just went whoosh and zoom in jet aeroplanes that the public adored............
1. Someone rings you on your mobile.
2. You are ordered to reduce the number of occasions when you are allowed to wiggle the canes in order to save money.
3. You have to complete a risk analysis for hazards caused by falling plates.
4. You are ordered to keep spinning the plates all night, but you won't be allowed the use of any lighting because that's too costly.
Oh for the days when we just went whoosh and zoom in jet aeroplanes that the public adored............
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Beagle, that is very good
gijoe, Yes that is about right. Most of it was fun and I would do it again I think. It’s true that one day, as happens to everyone, they do pi$$ you off once too often and so you move on.
I am very happy now but do have fond memories of my time in.
Really all I was trying to say is there is nothing to be scared about when the time comes to leave. If you are any good you will succeed whatever you do.
And yes I was in the Royal Signals.
gijoe, Yes that is about right. Most of it was fun and I would do it again I think. It’s true that one day, as happens to everyone, they do pi$$ you off once too often and so you move on.
I am very happy now but do have fond memories of my time in.
Really all I was trying to say is there is nothing to be scared about when the time comes to leave. If you are any good you will succeed whatever you do.
And yes I was in the Royal Signals.
Opened this thread in the hope of finding some good info about 'Civvie' rates of pay!!
Freelance Rotary Single Engine Day VFR only;
£45/hr Charter
£55/hr Pleasure Flying
£150-£200/day rate (ie fly someone to the races, hang around all day, read everything available, sleep in the back, leer at the Mercedes girls.., then fly them back home)
There we go, was not so difficult was it?
Freelance Rotary Single Engine Day VFR only;
£45/hr Charter
£55/hr Pleasure Flying
£150-£200/day rate (ie fly someone to the races, hang around all day, read everything available, sleep in the back, leer at the Mercedes girls.., then fly them back home)
There we go, was not so difficult was it?
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Guys
Despite some inevitable "rabbit warrens", an interesting thread. In too have looked at the terms of endearment forum and was surprised at low levels of salary.
For what it's worth...I left recently to become a Management Consultant within the IT sector (sure I had done an MBA in my spare time, but thats part of preparation).
The package(even when you allow for the 2 kids at boarding school)was extremely competative; the work can be (but is not always)interesting. Thing that we would consider "trivia" can be important to some people.
My advice would be not to undersell yourself and start preparing early.
To put this threads "poaching " argument into perspective. Yes I miss the flying, yes I miss happy-hour but there is a bigger picture.
Finally, the bottem line is, you WILL know when its time to leave, you just will (although you might not act on it)
Despite some inevitable "rabbit warrens", an interesting thread. In too have looked at the terms of endearment forum and was surprised at low levels of salary.
For what it's worth...I left recently to become a Management Consultant within the IT sector (sure I had done an MBA in my spare time, but thats part of preparation).
The package(even when you allow for the 2 kids at boarding school)was extremely competative; the work can be (but is not always)interesting. Thing that we would consider "trivia" can be important to some people.
My advice would be not to undersell yourself and start preparing early.
To put this threads "poaching " argument into perspective. Yes I miss the flying, yes I miss happy-hour but there is a bigger picture.
Finally, the bottem line is, you WILL know when its time to leave, you just will (although you might not act on it)
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Cheese - many thanks. I'd be really interested to hear how you actually went about getting a job.
What hoops you had to leap through, and did you actually end up in your current appointment by accident (as often seems the case) or did it all work out just as you planned?
regards - JP
BEagle - keep going, but mind your T6.
What hoops you had to leap through, and did you actually end up in your current appointment by accident (as often seems the case) or did it all work out just as you planned?
regards - JP
BEagle - keep going, but mind your T6.
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Beagle
Often thought you spoke my language (1950/60's RAF) - just wondered how you shifted from fast jet to trucking - medical or ability? Keep up the top work filtering the ramblings of the eternally sad.
Often thought you spoke my language (1950/60's RAF) - just wondered how you shifted from fast jet to trucking - medical or ability? Keep up the top work filtering the ramblings of the eternally sad.
Australia has a Federal Award system for most categories of employment. The awards can be found at http://www.wagenet.gov.au/index.html
, follow the link through "Fact Sheets" for awards and pay scales for various flying types, eg General Avaition, Offshore Helicopter, GA helicopter, Qantas, etc.
Also, http://www.wages.com.au/ has links to pay rates around the world.
, follow the link through "Fact Sheets" for awards and pay scales for various flying types, eg General Avaition, Offshore Helicopter, GA helicopter, Qantas, etc.
Also, http://www.wages.com.au/ has links to pay rates around the world.
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Of course, the flying option is only open to pilots and some flight engineers. As a former nav and ops officer the world offered a different set of choices when I left.
There are virtually no civvie navs in the Western world and those that there are are ground based. Airline ops salaries are low for the areas they tend to be in - living near Gatwick/Heathrow isn't cheap. I did get offered an ops management job in the midlands - 20k, no benefits, long and antisocial hours (freight goes at night).
I went into IT sales, but was selling the right product, right time, wrong price. Very hard work in a very competitive market. I also did a load of Y2K and computer auditing work as a sub-contractor. Rates are not as good as you think when everyone takes their cut and margins are squeezed. IT project managers are, however, in demand and I know several ex-RAF types who have walked into those jobs, but they did prepare, they know some IT and they have had at least one supervisory tour.
I've had my own company - interesting what you can get as a MD that you can't get otherwise. I created the company for a short-term project and folded it afterwards. I still have my own trading names for business purposes, and I still have a varied flow of opportunities and contracts. Cashflow is king when you're on your own.
That ultimately is the bottom line out here. No-one is owed a living and you can find yourself doing almost anything if you do as I do and choose to be self-employed. I currently have 5 sources of income - pension, non-executive directorship (handy little earners if you can get them), temporary work (lots around to top up the pennies), money for some public service things I do and occasional profit from sales of products as well. I'm waiting on the results of 3 contract bids, but everyone goes on holiday at this time. I offset lots of things against tax - or rather my accountant does.
Must admit, with hindsight, that being in the military is in many respects a doddle. The package is good, as previously explained, and there are perks that if you take them (3 sailing expeds and subsidised sport in my case) do not occur so often outside. Try paying for every visit to the gym, every swim in the pool, every game of squash or tennis or even a Summer Ball/Christmas Draw where the staff are paid out of your ticket. Officers' and Sergeants' Messes are v.cheap compared to a half way decent country club.
Finally, we are probably not on the edge of a recession, but are actually in one (hence the latest cut in interest rates). This is critical for anyone making a decision to leave. In telecomms there has been a reduction of 290,000 jobs worldwide so far this year. Nearly 20% of last year's award winning websites don't even exist anymore as companies are going under. Advertising budgets are down. I was talking to a businessman last night and his concern for his sales of high value luxury goods was real. This will impact on the whole flying market by the end of the year. At the moment people are taking holidays paid for and booked several months ago and they've just splurged on the high street to get their things to take with them. I would not make a move from military to civvy until I'd seen September's sales figures and the Government growth forecasts for the last quarter.
There are virtually no civvie navs in the Western world and those that there are are ground based. Airline ops salaries are low for the areas they tend to be in - living near Gatwick/Heathrow isn't cheap. I did get offered an ops management job in the midlands - 20k, no benefits, long and antisocial hours (freight goes at night).
I went into IT sales, but was selling the right product, right time, wrong price. Very hard work in a very competitive market. I also did a load of Y2K and computer auditing work as a sub-contractor. Rates are not as good as you think when everyone takes their cut and margins are squeezed. IT project managers are, however, in demand and I know several ex-RAF types who have walked into those jobs, but they did prepare, they know some IT and they have had at least one supervisory tour.
I've had my own company - interesting what you can get as a MD that you can't get otherwise. I created the company for a short-term project and folded it afterwards. I still have my own trading names for business purposes, and I still have a varied flow of opportunities and contracts. Cashflow is king when you're on your own.
That ultimately is the bottom line out here. No-one is owed a living and you can find yourself doing almost anything if you do as I do and choose to be self-employed. I currently have 5 sources of income - pension, non-executive directorship (handy little earners if you can get them), temporary work (lots around to top up the pennies), money for some public service things I do and occasional profit from sales of products as well. I'm waiting on the results of 3 contract bids, but everyone goes on holiday at this time. I offset lots of things against tax - or rather my accountant does.
Must admit, with hindsight, that being in the military is in many respects a doddle. The package is good, as previously explained, and there are perks that if you take them (3 sailing expeds and subsidised sport in my case) do not occur so often outside. Try paying for every visit to the gym, every swim in the pool, every game of squash or tennis or even a Summer Ball/Christmas Draw where the staff are paid out of your ticket. Officers' and Sergeants' Messes are v.cheap compared to a half way decent country club.
Finally, we are probably not on the edge of a recession, but are actually in one (hence the latest cut in interest rates). This is critical for anyone making a decision to leave. In telecomms there has been a reduction of 290,000 jobs worldwide so far this year. Nearly 20% of last year's award winning websites don't even exist anymore as companies are going under. Advertising budgets are down. I was talking to a businessman last night and his concern for his sales of high value luxury goods was real. This will impact on the whole flying market by the end of the year. At the moment people are taking holidays paid for and booked several months ago and they've just splurged on the high street to get their things to take with them. I would not make a move from military to civvy until I'd seen September's sales figures and the Government growth forecasts for the last quarter.
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Yours is a balanced and honest piece of advice. Only one thing to add; watch out for the sharks. There are many more lurking out there than in the Service.
Another mate o'mine, brilliant, youngest serving GD Wg Cdr, got fed up and left. Joined a major electrical roods retail chain, who put him through LBS and then made him Sales Manager. He did wonders for the firm for two years - ranch in Surrey, Ferrari in the garage, boat on the Hamble - and was then head-hunted to be MD of a consumer electronics retail group. It was only once he was in the chair and looked at the books that he found that the firm was technically insolvent. He got out of it, I believe, by finding a buyer for the company; but his reputation was hopelessly compromised in the places that matter. Last heard of as a professional charter skipper in the Caribbean.
Yours is a balanced and honest piece of advice. Only one thing to add; watch out for the sharks. There are many more lurking out there than in the Service.
Another mate o'mine, brilliant, youngest serving GD Wg Cdr, got fed up and left. Joined a major electrical roods retail chain, who put him through LBS and then made him Sales Manager. He did wonders for the firm for two years - ranch in Surrey, Ferrari in the garage, boat on the Hamble - and was then head-hunted to be MD of a consumer electronics retail group. It was only once he was in the chair and looked at the books that he found that the firm was technically insolvent. He got out of it, I believe, by finding a buyer for the company; but his reputation was hopelessly compromised in the places that matter. Last heard of as a professional charter skipper in the Caribbean.