Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Brown looks at 1bn helicopter order

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Brown looks at 1bn helicopter order

Old 11th Nov 2009, 19:54
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not forgetting how handy it would be to have Tutors continuously buzzing around the instrument approach pattern for Benson......oh hang on a minute....

Abingdon would be a better bet with a VGS there already.
TheWizard is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2009, 13:33
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
More Helos = more aircrew

Assuming that all Merlins go Navy and a new buy of Chinook happens, who the hell is going to crew them all? Even SAR are ramping up to 28 crews from 24/25 (most of who will probably jump ship and leave when SAR-H happens from 2012). The vast majority of PA aircrew are now beyond their 5 year lock-in clause and can leave without penalty. Also, I gather that recruitment from civvy street has all but dried up at the moment.

Perhaps there is a new retention bonus in the offing...the last manning presentation I saw (6 months ago) confirmed that they were under serious consideration.

Can we start the bidding at 100K? Any takers?

I'll get my coat (cashmere of course)...
Megawart is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2009, 13:51
  #43 (permalink)  

Champagne anyone...?
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: EGDL
Age: 53
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RAF Merlin crews to CH47F, Navy Sea King crews to Merlin, Navy Sea Kings to bin.

Retention bonus? I heard a million pounds each for every month you stay on, paid in krugerrands and platinum ingots with a minimum 24hr contract. I think.
StopStart is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2009, 16:02
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Zummerset
Posts: 1,026
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Krugerrands? I'd heard the FRIs were going to be paid in gold until they realised some cycloptic rogue trader had sold it all at the bottom of the market....

20/20 Vision? More like 20/20 Hindsight...if the proposals are true then this is the fleet we should have bought in the mid-90s.
Evalu8ter is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2009, 17:43
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,685
Received 123 Likes on 59 Posts
Finnpog - I bet that amphibious capability is really useful in Afghanistan
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2009, 18:08
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falmouth
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The vast majority of PA aircrew are now beyond their 5 year lock-in clause and can leave without penalty. Also, I gather that recruitment from civvy street has all but dried up at the moment.
Not in the RN...Many have not even started their 5 year lock in yet...

I gather that the RAF has stopped recruiting and is due to start again in 16 months....Certainly, that's the message the Exeter recruiting Officer told me.



Do the RAF fly the Merlin with a single pilot or do they take 2?

Will the RN fly the green Merlin with a single pilot?
vecvechookattack is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2009, 21:34
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Waiting to return to the Loire.
Age: 53
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You are quite correct there Crab.
No point having an amphib bit of kit to support the sole standing amphib brigade in the British OrBat - that might almost be an outbreak of common sense.

<Engage Atonement>
There is no war but this one.
There will be no war but this one.
There was never any other war but this one.
Finnpog is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2009, 21:37
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: England
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So we are getting 10 new chinooks! Big whoppee! Have we not written off about 5 in the past 3-5 years or so? Is it not about time someone with some nouse tells the powers that be we need new airframes every year, just to replace worn out airframes coming back from the desert. We may end up with a surplus in 5 years time but that is surely better than the present day scenario of not enough.
The puma upgrade will be a very positive upgrade to the helicopter capabilities ( though it doesn't mean that its the best thing around[cougar anybody]).
What about spares? Time to get british industry geared up me thinks. Solve the unemployment problem.
you'llneverguesswhat is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 08:53
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: on the beach
Age: 67
Posts: 2,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am confused here. I have heard Gordon Brown and other cronies say for ages
that we have enough Chinooks, and don't NEED any more. So why is he
considering buying some
Because there will be an election next year, that's why!
Evanelpus is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 14:03
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Political spin or genuine increase in capability?

I have been watching this develop and lets be totally honest about this:

Boy do 'we' (Defence) need the rotary lift increase (not just for Afghanistan, but for any post SDR scenario - both land and amphibious based), and although our Commando bretheren are taking our Merlin white elephants off our hands, it is certainly (a bit) better than their current chariot - especially if the Freaks actually gain approval/funding for a better/improved engine to handover to the Fisheads.

Without getting into an inter-fleet slagging competition I believe that there is real merit in seeding RN aircrew into our green Merlin crews now, especially given the experience and exposure that the Fisheads have had in Helmand where the Merlin community are just beginning their experience curve. It will certainly assist the transition in the years ahead if this rumour is true. This should also free up some Merlin crews to start the CH47 transition, which will certainly help us out. Even I have to admit that a dark/ light blue mix in theatre at the moment is a healthy one - not just for the 'pushback' banter but for the troops on the ground in the FOBs and Patrol Bases. Fortunately the mighty twin TQ monster will always see us out lift the Fisheads, even if they do manage to ditch their Sea Queen early!

The key to this 'rumour' is timings - as already identified, this should have been implemented over a decade a go, and certainly immediately after the NAO report in 2003. But if the MoD have found a direct link into Mr Boeing for some shiney new Chinooks then I am pretty convinced that they are not going to wait for the usual UK procurement process to prevaricate and ponder other options, all in the back drop of a highly likely change of H M Govt and subsequent SDR.

Is this political spin and purely a military concept or is this truly a joint coherent political/MoD civil serpents decision, correctly funded by the treasury that will require rapid procurement, strategic planning and immediate execution if the aspired timelines are to be met?

When I see it, then I will believe it - but sadly I fully expect the media to re-cycle the same old news story for more helicopters in Afghanistan, either through a bereaved family, memoirs or 'leaked' military paper.

Tactically we are rapid, flexible and adaptive - strategically (procurement) is slow, cumbersome and attempting to appease too many people/departments and forgetting the true reason of the original requirement (i.e. British jobs/industry and political gain in preference to rapid delivery of what the commander on the ground actually wants and needs).
MaroonMan4 is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 20:50
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 932
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dumb question time... and not for the first time, obviously.

Back in the spring, Italy ordered CH-47F (or ICH-47F to be precise), [see http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...opters-05413/], with AW as the prime, and Boeing as a key supplier, with assembly taking place in Italy.

But (well, according to DID), "Their industrial partnership includes a licensing arrangement that lets AgustaWestland market, sell and produce the Boeing CH-47F Chinook to Britain, other European countries.' So bingo, here's a "solution" that keeps AW (though possibly not Yeovil) happy, allows Boeing to concentrate on CH-47F / MH-47G production in Philly, and gets the UK some additional Chinooks.

But what of the detail? Will these be pukka CH-47Fs? I'm sure I'll be corrected if this "gen" is duff, but I understood that the HC2/HC2a was a slightly odd Brit-specific CH-47C/D mix, presumably made more bespoke with the new digital cockpit.

So are we going to procure a CH-47F with a Brit cockpit (ahh, what could possibly go wrong!?!) or are we going to get the same as everyone else + UK comms?

Yours curiously,

S41
Squirrel 41 is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 21:14
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Waiting to return to the Loire.
Age: 53
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Corking Merlin phots over on UKAR

Please click here http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17644
Finnpog is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 21:29
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maroonman4

Its not just a rumour; it is going to happen unfortunately...

PS Fishheads are seagoers. Last time I went to sea was 2001. Did I detect a hint of a compliment to us Junglies in your post?
Talk Split is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 21:33
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falmouth
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Great pics but why is that brave young man standing in the doorway hanging onto the rail? Has he done the DL course? If he were to just bring the back door further backwards (leaving about 18 inches free) he would notice that the recirculation of dust around the starboard sponson and rear door would decrease significantly. If he needs some training on how to conduct Dust landings I can offer him the telephone number of a good QHI at Yeovilton

Last edited by vecvechookattack; 14th Nov 2009 at 18:22.
vecvechookattack is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 21:44
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Reference last sentence in above post:

I have never moonlighted before but my rates are cheap...
Talk Split is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2009, 22:12
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Vicvacwhatever,
You really do like to advertise your ignorance on these pages don't you?
I am sure that 'Tosser' would like to meet you and explain why he is carrying out the correct SOP whilst under training and I would love to see how you respond.

Moving the door on a Merlin has no effect on the dust circulation outside whatsoever you muppet.
The dust cloud starts at the rear of the aircraft, not the front.

Why would an RAF crewman want the number of a Naval QHI? (unless you are making some sort of RN related offer? )

EDIT: 'Offending' word removed as VVwhatever has decided to grow up a bit.

Last edited by TheWizard; 14th Nov 2009 at 19:03.
TheWizard is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2009, 02:18
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Borderline England
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
VecVec

I don't know anything about you or the Sea King or the SOPs of a RN crewman, but I'll leave you with one statement.

The Merlin is not a Sea King.
Unchecked is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2009, 10:12
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 55
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Evaneplus


Quote:
I am confused here. I have heard Gordon Brown and other cronies say for ages
that we have enough Chinooks, and don't NEED any more. So why is he
considering buying some
Because there will be an election next year, that's why!



I think you might find I had already said that in my post!

See my quote below

'Has realised there is an election looming'
barnstormer1968 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2009, 17:32
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South of england
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Quote..."Have they stopped faffing about at El Centro yet?"

Meaning are they in somewhere hot and dusty somewhat proper, then yes they are!!
petop is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2009, 18:29
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falmouth
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
During trials in Kenya and Morocco it was discovered that if you conduct a DL with the door fully open then the dust cloud will start to encompass the aircraft from the vicinity of the RHS pilots window. With the door half way open the the cloud starts in the vicinity of the forward starboard window. With the door two thirds open then the cloud starts just forward of the door.

The Boffins put it down to re-circ. A little sceptical at first the theory was tried and blow me if it wasn't correct..... Therefore....best practice was to have the door somewhere between two thirds and halfway open....In essence it gives the handling pilot about another 10 seconds of viz before he is in the lap of the gods.

The same re-circ issue was trialled on a Type 23 Frigate....same details same result.
vecvechookattack is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.