Female Aircrew, British Forces
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Have flown with a number, mostly as my pilot but a number of times as the Ac Comd. Within the AAC most beefs are not to do with their ability to pole(!?) but at a lack of ability at other basic soldier like stuff common with a large number of females within the Pongo fraternity. 
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Only talking from the GR1/4 point of view but, currently there is only 1 girlie pilot in the force. There were another 2, one left to multiply and one passed the OCU but didn't make combat ready (now flying Hercs I think). There are 3 navs on sqns and another just started the OCU. Hope this answers the original question.
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Just to belatedly concur with EESDL, in the early phases of female integration the AAC seemed to adopt an attitude of "We want female pilots, so they WILL pass". This attitude did alter over time as most of the first females simply weren't up to it, but all who have followed have had to carry the burden of all the urban legends about the 'girlie card' and the comments along the lines of "who did she sleep with to get through?".
As for the nurse who is currently Blue Eagling, although she may have been pushed into the post so the AAC could trumpet their gender-fair credentials, by all accounts she is more than up to the job and is highly regarded by those who actually know her and have flown with her.
Naturally there are some females who are closer to average or below just as there are men who fall into the same category, but I feel the major problem with the recent alterations to our previous male-only environment have been caused more by the way in which the changes have been managed and announced by the management than any failings by the ladies themselves.
As for the nurse who is currently Blue Eagling, although she may have been pushed into the post so the AAC could trumpet their gender-fair credentials, by all accounts she is more than up to the job and is highly regarded by those who actually know her and have flown with her.
Naturally there are some females who are closer to average or below just as there are men who fall into the same category, but I feel the major problem with the recent alterations to our previous male-only environment have been caused more by the way in which the changes have been managed and announced by the management than any failings by the ladies themselves.
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we seem to have opened a can of worms with this one.as Agaricus bisporus pionts out this discusion has lost the plot.however i would like to add a further piont to the flow with regard to femail aircrew. i have flown, as i have already said, with some vgood wimin but the problem in the early days was their own attiude.i was at Abingdon when the frist arived and althow thier entryinto the RAF was a land mark they were treated as though they were celebrities.it was as though they werent as much trying to be pilots but more interested in being the first "lady pilots" but a typical incident was when one morning they were seen to be walking across the station with thier hair down,no hats on,in thier flying overalls,and thier hands in thier pockets. this would ,for anyone else,have resulted in a very unpleasent conversation with the SWO! its not suprising therfore that they have had some problems. as i have said in a previous post at the end of the day we all pass the tests and get the ticks in the boxes and in the ac it makes no diference unless you fly with a gay pilot (lets see what that produces!)
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Hiya Fellas
The problem with obtaining a realistic opinion of female aircrew is the difficulty girlies have in being selected. A combination of the inexplicably lower scores on aptitude tests and the physical boundaries (it's difficult to find women who will meet the size/weight requirements for FJ, since they were based around the average male frame) means that there will always be a disproportionately lower number of women flying. At present the RAF is made up of approx. 8% girlies, and yet there are only something like 200 female aircrew out of a total of around 3000 (or was that 4000) aviators.
Until the RAF changes it's policy that all aircrew should be capable of going FJ, women will never be accurately represented in all flying branches. This is a shame since studies have shown that women are better at holding up under high G-forces than men (again physiological).
Of course, all those who have 'made it', male and female should be commended. Fingers crossed that one day gender will not be an issue in the flying community.
Yakkers xxx
(not been here for a while- how ya'll doin?)
The problem with obtaining a realistic opinion of female aircrew is the difficulty girlies have in being selected. A combination of the inexplicably lower scores on aptitude tests and the physical boundaries (it's difficult to find women who will meet the size/weight requirements for FJ, since they were based around the average male frame) means that there will always be a disproportionately lower number of women flying. At present the RAF is made up of approx. 8% girlies, and yet there are only something like 200 female aircrew out of a total of around 3000 (or was that 4000) aviators.
Until the RAF changes it's policy that all aircrew should be capable of going FJ, women will never be accurately represented in all flying branches. This is a shame since studies have shown that women are better at holding up under high G-forces than men (again physiological).
Of course, all those who have 'made it', male and female should be commended. Fingers crossed that one day gender will not be an issue in the flying community.
Yakkers xxx
(not been here for a while- how ya'll doin?)
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Fair point Kenobi. The issue with the female Ego, who is by all accounts proficient at hands on skills, rather her astounding lack of knowledge and experience as to the battlefield environment she is meant to operate in. No bloke from the medical branches would have been allowed the transfer except as a SAM. Much posting has gone onin the past, so perhaps this one is best left here, in context of the original question.
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Thanks for some good info in the latest posts. Tourist, I'm amazed that there is "only one female pilot in the RN". Are you talking pingers only, ot really the whole FAA? Astonishing.
And YakYak, as many as 200 in the RAF??? Theres a huge disparity there between RN and RAF figures as quoted. Anyone able to corroborate these figures, and give one for Teeny Weeny Airways too? YakYak's 5% figure is probably roughly equivalent to the civvy world, interesting.
For the record most of the female civvies I've flown with have been better than theit male counterparts, mainly I suspect because they have apoint to prove which they do very quietly by just ensuring they are better, more standard and better prepared. They are a big asset in civvy street, hence my interest in how this compares in the Mil.
I have never seen one playing the girlie card on the job, though anecdotal evidence suggests that gender often helps in shortening/bypassing the selection process and a certain amount of eyelash fluttering can be a distnct bonus in the interview in some companies only. In others this seems balanced by the opposite reaction, so hopefully it all evens out, tho its a shame it is not all a bit more evenhanded. (Much of the last bit I've got from the girls themselves).
Keep it comng!
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: Agaricus bisporus ]
And YakYak, as many as 200 in the RAF??? Theres a huge disparity there between RN and RAF figures as quoted. Anyone able to corroborate these figures, and give one for Teeny Weeny Airways too? YakYak's 5% figure is probably roughly equivalent to the civvy world, interesting.
For the record most of the female civvies I've flown with have been better than theit male counterparts, mainly I suspect because they have apoint to prove which they do very quietly by just ensuring they are better, more standard and better prepared. They are a big asset in civvy street, hence my interest in how this compares in the Mil.
I have never seen one playing the girlie card on the job, though anecdotal evidence suggests that gender often helps in shortening/bypassing the selection process and a certain amount of eyelash fluttering can be a distnct bonus in the interview in some companies only. In others this seems balanced by the opposite reaction, so hopefully it all evens out, tho its a shame it is not all a bit more evenhanded. (Much of the last bit I've got from the girls themselves).
Keep it comng!
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: Agaricus bisporus ]
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Yakky,
You speak truth, however, it's not the RAF who set size, weight restrictions. The aircraft were (since all our aircraft are old) designed for the "Average Male Frame", similarly, so were control positions, switches and ejection seats (This also appilies to Typhoon by the way). It is niether the designers or RAF's fault therefore that now, we have teeny weeny girl pilots who cannot fly these craft. As to your comment about "g"...doesn't matter if she can't reach the stick, does it?
So, don't blame the RAF, blame GOD for making women in the present day too small, for aeroplanes designed for men. Rejection on the basic of size, happens to alot to chaps too by the way.
Clean
You speak truth, however, it's not the RAF who set size, weight restrictions. The aircraft were (since all our aircraft are old) designed for the "Average Male Frame", similarly, so were control positions, switches and ejection seats (This also appilies to Typhoon by the way). It is niether the designers or RAF's fault therefore that now, we have teeny weeny girl pilots who cannot fly these craft. As to your comment about "g"...doesn't matter if she can't reach the stick, does it?
So, don't blame the RAF, blame GOD for making women in the present day too small, for aeroplanes designed for men. Rejection on the basic of size, happens to alot to chaps too by the way.
Clean
kbf, I know personally at least one RAMC guy that did a pilots course and subsequently transferred to the AAC. This was in Detmold, mid 80s. I'm sure there is at least one other.
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Kbf, I'm afraid I'm with MightyGem on this one. Although at least two nurses have gone through the system, and yes I think that maybe a basic foundation course on wpn handling, tactics etc would be a better solution then just on the job training, we've got a medic in our squadron, I know of an ex-Bandsman (who unlike the medic is a 'proper' non-combatant), clerks and others who could hardly be said to have had a background in the realities of the battlefield. So I think background argument is flawed, notwithstanding the a/m comment about a foundation course for the legalities and the basics
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They are a welcome change from some of the stubby fingered blokes who think the world owes them a living just 'cos they've survived half a lifetime of holding! Whatever happened to early morning runs, keelhauling and flogging? not to mention Flying Officers who understood their place in the pecking order - baaaaaaaaah
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We seem to forget there's another side to all this (I know. I'm sorry, I'm going soft). My wife was one of the first externally recruited pilots and the beloved air farce made a life a living hell for her whilst concurrently trying to get her to play the big PR game (eg, how many blokes do you know who could not carry hernia boxes for 6 kms but were they ever recoursed for that well known F7500 criteria "lack of upper body strenth"? In these days of enlightened equal opportunities and IiP it is easy to forget that some people were victimised by the system (that would of course never happen now). Like many pioneers, the early female pilots had to put up with a lot of bigotry and ignorance: thank goodness some persevered. Good luck to the girls I say: if some of us big tough men cannot deal with others being perfectly capable of doing the job as well as us (and better in some cases), it might just be time to find another kindergarten.
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Overshoot and Obi, I would argue that perhaps it is not the argument I made which is entirely at fault, rather the system that sees the pilot as a non-specialist on the battlefield. Perhaps you would agree with me that the way the AAC recruits and retains is flawed along with the view of cabs being "assests" in the same manner as landrovers. I can't fault a bandsman or a nurse for getting through a course, but I can fault a system that hardly differentiates between an Mil Flying Qual and an FMT600. I can drive a tank, but that doesn't make me a Trp Cdr, or even a crew member. If I wanted to re-badge to the RAC I am sure I would have to go back and do a troopie's cse first before the RAC would let me fight in a tank. I think OS' comments about integrated all-arms ops being part of the course for non-fighting or CSS elements has a lot f credibility. Ultimately the answer will only come with a re-think of the entire ethos of the AAC and its philosophy.
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]
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Hengis , yep we've got female crewmen ( well crewperson PC and all that) and there have been some good some bad. The good both saw the light and went C130. On the SH side ones trying to get her commission back, one didn't like the OCU and quit , three were useless ( 1 now out and a reservist, one fixed wing the 3rd declared herself a lesbo! and out ) There's one going through the wokka OCU and she's doing fine till she gets to the SQN and can't carry 5m strops or 100 lb bergans.
As for the front end , we've got some very good and some avg pilots and instructors. Personally if the girls can do the job without any special treatment or favours then fine get on and do it, without a fuss or double page spreads in RAF news!
Q. Does anyone else experience positive discrimination towards females on their SQN?
At the moment it seams if you've got tits then you get on . ( this is a personal observation that I know is shared amongst others including the girls)
Any Typo's are due to a completer lack of sleep and a large hangover.
[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: Ramp Monkey ]
As for the front end , we've got some very good and some avg pilots and instructors. Personally if the girls can do the job without any special treatment or favours then fine get on and do it, without a fuss or double page spreads in RAF news!
Q. Does anyone else experience positive discrimination towards females on their SQN?
At the moment it seams if you've got tits then you get on . ( this is a personal observation that I know is shared amongst others including the girls)
Any Typo's are due to a completer lack of sleep and a large hangover.
[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: Ramp Monkey ]
