Whinging aircrew!
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I reckon this Guru chap needs a back seat in something a little more punchy than his mahogany bomber. I reckon a little spell of ACT followed by some OLF might concentrate his mind.
Hengist Pod,
Sounds like you're the one getting worked up there, sport. Cool wet grass and all that......
Personally, I post on PPruNe for enjoyment and tend not to whinge, 'cos I enjoy my job toooooo much. However, in the past even that fact has incurred the wrath of fellow posters!
Surely Admin Guru (
) did not post his thoughts expecting an easy ride. Different people express themselves in different ways, that is the way of the world. Personally I like to use smilies (I've already been typing too long). 
Ralf Wiggum,
I don't know where you work, but the majority of the professional aircrew I have had the pleasure of working with enjoy a good slanging match as much as the next guy. This is a bulletin board, not real life; read the disclaimers, relax and enjoy.
Sounds like you're the one getting worked up there, sport. Cool wet grass and all that......
Personally, I post on PPruNe for enjoyment and tend not to whinge, 'cos I enjoy my job toooooo much. However, in the past even that fact has incurred the wrath of fellow posters!
Surely Admin Guru (
) did not post his thoughts expecting an easy ride. Different people express themselves in different ways, that is the way of the world. Personally I like to use smilies (I've already been typing too long). Ralf Wiggum,
I don't know where you work, but the majority of the professional aircrew I have had the pleasure of working with enjoy a good slanging match as much as the next guy. This is a bulletin board, not real life; read the disclaimers, relax and enjoy.
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Admin Guru,
You haven't 'phoned me yet. I'm disappointed. Give me a call and I'll take you flying. You'll need to spend half a day with the sqn for 1 trip and I'm flying Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday next week. I'll be on that number from 0730 to 1730 on Monday, including lunchtime.
FDJ
You haven't 'phoned me yet. I'm disappointed. Give me a call and I'll take you flying. You'll need to spend half a day with the sqn for 1 trip and I'm flying Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday next week. I'll be on that number from 0730 to 1730 on Monday, including lunchtime.
FDJ
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Admin Guru.
In response to your slagging of the UAS may I just say that you may have more hours just now but what is civvy flying anyway?
Do your civvy hours help you fly your desk?
In response to your slagging of the UAS may I just say that you may have more hours just now but what is civvy flying anyway?
Do your civvy hours help you fly your desk?
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Actualy, I have some sympathy for Admin Guru's point of veiw! In a similar vein, just te other day I was surfing the net, and came accross a bullitin board for NHS doctors and medical staff. Would you believe that all they had on it were threads about how under-valued they were by their organisation, and how recruiting and retaining quality doctors, nurses, and support staff was suffering what with pay and conditions being so bad! Bearing in mind that I did a 1st aid course a short while ago, I think I'm qualified to comment on such matters.
"The cheeky b@stards" I thought, "everyone knows they get paid shed-loads, and spend most of their time mincing around in their white coats with their stethoscopes around their necks, chatting up nurses!" Incedentally, why cant they give stethoscopes to everyone who woks in a Hospital? A
I got so angry that I felt like posting a reply (even though it had nothing to do with me) telling them what I thought, or adding something really constructive like "if you don't like it, vote with your feet!. But then I thought "no, only a complete t*sser would do some thing like that.
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Boot Scooter ]</p>
"The cheeky b@stards" I thought, "everyone knows they get paid shed-loads, and spend most of their time mincing around in their white coats with their stethoscopes around their necks, chatting up nurses!" Incedentally, why cant they give stethoscopes to everyone who woks in a Hospital? A
I got so angry that I felt like posting a reply (even though it had nothing to do with me) telling them what I thought, or adding something really constructive like "if you don't like it, vote with your feet!. But then I thought "no, only a complete t*sser would do some thing like that.
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Boot Scooter ]</p>
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Dear Admin Guru.
Firstly I can't believe I have even stooped so low as to reply to this complete load of C**p. I'm not sure which Air Force you are in, but it certainly isn't mine.
Where do you get off, claiming that all we do is complain and moan about what is happening in our lives. You are OBVIOUSLY a PPRuNe Virgin. If you were to read a bit more you would find that a lot of people have spent a lot of time passing comments on how they see the Air Force, both now and in the future, and commented on how it can be improved, mostly because they don't want to see the Service that they are proud to serve in go down the pan. It also contains information on events and touching memories of our Breveted Brethren who are no longer with us. (See the tributes to Bullseye/Horse recently, although I'd be surprised if you are even aware of his accident)
Your idea that Non-Aircrew should wear brevets is insulting. I have recently returned from 2 months in Kuwait, flying OP missions over Iraq, followed 3 weeks later, by another 2 months helping fight the war in Afghanistan, neither of which could have been done by anyone who was not Aircrew. When was the last time ANY non-Aircrew person was put in this position. In answer to your comment about us working for 2 hours a day, I spent my time away working 12 On, 12 Off every day for 2 months, with no days off, and have just finished my second week at work doing 12 hours a day, coming in to work at 0630. Oddly enough, no one was in Handbrake House to discuss any issues that we might have had at that time of day. This is not a moan, it is just HOW IT IS. I could go on about how my pay has been screwed around to the tune of £750 by a 'blunty' at Innsworth but I am not going to lower myself to this anymore. If he has a bad day, he just goes home and tells his wife. If I, or one of my fellow aircrew colleauges, has a bad day our wives get a visit from the Station Commander and the Padre.
I feel bad writing to you in this manner, as a lot of my friends work VERY hard to support the Aircrew at my station, but your immature, ill thought out and badly spelt thread has successfully managed to alienate the 2 sides, yet again. Why can't you accept that there are 2 sides to the Air Force, the side that flies and is involved in International Operations, and the side that is employed to support them.
I would love to host you on a visit to my Squadron and let you see that it isn't just a bunch of guys who arrive at work, have a coffee, go flying and then vanish to the pub. It is a highly trained, very professional bunch or men, who work VERY long hours, flying complex aircraft in a high risk environment, who spent large amounts of time away from home and who, quite reasonably, get a bit annoyed when someone criticises them with no knowledge of how they do their job or what it involves. See you at Met Brief at 0630.
I await your reply.
CJS
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: CJS ]</p>
Firstly I can't believe I have even stooped so low as to reply to this complete load of C**p. I'm not sure which Air Force you are in, but it certainly isn't mine.
Where do you get off, claiming that all we do is complain and moan about what is happening in our lives. You are OBVIOUSLY a PPRuNe Virgin. If you were to read a bit more you would find that a lot of people have spent a lot of time passing comments on how they see the Air Force, both now and in the future, and commented on how it can be improved, mostly because they don't want to see the Service that they are proud to serve in go down the pan. It also contains information on events and touching memories of our Breveted Brethren who are no longer with us. (See the tributes to Bullseye/Horse recently, although I'd be surprised if you are even aware of his accident)
Your idea that Non-Aircrew should wear brevets is insulting. I have recently returned from 2 months in Kuwait, flying OP missions over Iraq, followed 3 weeks later, by another 2 months helping fight the war in Afghanistan, neither of which could have been done by anyone who was not Aircrew. When was the last time ANY non-Aircrew person was put in this position. In answer to your comment about us working for 2 hours a day, I spent my time away working 12 On, 12 Off every day for 2 months, with no days off, and have just finished my second week at work doing 12 hours a day, coming in to work at 0630. Oddly enough, no one was in Handbrake House to discuss any issues that we might have had at that time of day. This is not a moan, it is just HOW IT IS. I could go on about how my pay has been screwed around to the tune of £750 by a 'blunty' at Innsworth but I am not going to lower myself to this anymore. If he has a bad day, he just goes home and tells his wife. If I, or one of my fellow aircrew colleauges, has a bad day our wives get a visit from the Station Commander and the Padre.
I feel bad writing to you in this manner, as a lot of my friends work VERY hard to support the Aircrew at my station, but your immature, ill thought out and badly spelt thread has successfully managed to alienate the 2 sides, yet again. Why can't you accept that there are 2 sides to the Air Force, the side that flies and is involved in International Operations, and the side that is employed to support them.
I would love to host you on a visit to my Squadron and let you see that it isn't just a bunch of guys who arrive at work, have a coffee, go flying and then vanish to the pub. It is a highly trained, very professional bunch or men, who work VERY long hours, flying complex aircraft in a high risk environment, who spent large amounts of time away from home and who, quite reasonably, get a bit annoyed when someone criticises them with no knowledge of how they do their job or what it involves. See you at Met Brief at 0630.
I await your reply.
CJS
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: CJS ]</p>
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The really sad and worrying thing is that this complete waste of my precious oxygen might actually be serious.
As a UAS stude myself, I can happily state that I am in no way a fully-fledged member of the Air Farce and am well aware of the fact that those already in have far more right to whinge than I.
HOWEVER, it is very encouraging to see that clearly they are letting all sorts through Cranwell nowadays, and my 'lack of polish' is as nothing compared to some people.
Try learning to fly out of a base with every type currently in service in the circuit with you at the same time, and dealing with imbecilic doddering civil pilots as well before you spout such drivel about the standard of UAS flying.
We may be part-timers and on the VR list, but i can happily assure you that my approach to my soon-to-be-job (and that of my squadron mates) is a lot more professional than yours appears to be.
if you ever visited a UAS, you might actually realise that many of us fly Monday to Friday, not at weekend at all, and juggle a degree at the same time.
You are clearly the sort of clown who enjoys getting people's backs up - thank God most of the uspport staff in the RAF are absolutely nothing like you. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Leave us alone you ignorant peasant.
ENDS.
(Sorry, rant over guys!)
As a UAS stude myself, I can happily state that I am in no way a fully-fledged member of the Air Farce and am well aware of the fact that those already in have far more right to whinge than I.
HOWEVER, it is very encouraging to see that clearly they are letting all sorts through Cranwell nowadays, and my 'lack of polish' is as nothing compared to some people.
Try learning to fly out of a base with every type currently in service in the circuit with you at the same time, and dealing with imbecilic doddering civil pilots as well before you spout such drivel about the standard of UAS flying.
We may be part-timers and on the VR list, but i can happily assure you that my approach to my soon-to-be-job (and that of my squadron mates) is a lot more professional than yours appears to be.
if you ever visited a UAS, you might actually realise that many of us fly Monday to Friday, not at weekend at all, and juggle a degree at the same time.
You are clearly the sort of clown who enjoys getting people's backs up - thank God most of the uspport staff in the RAF are absolutely nothing like you. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Leave us alone you ignorant peasant.
ENDS.
(Sorry, rant over guys!)
Yes, Him
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On reflection, I think this Admin Gnu is the biggest wind up since Big Ben was commissioned. S/He is indeed therefore, a Master Baiter.
So who is it? TM? Nil Nos? BEags? Jacko? Probably not. Answers on a postcard to.....
So who is it? TM? Nil Nos? BEags? Jacko? Probably not. Answers on a postcard to.....
Pilot Officer PPRuNe
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This is great, you can't beet a bit of Blunty Bashing at the weekend, after a days work. Oh yeah, Blunty mate, some of us work weekends.
This is either the best windup for a while (though I hope the feds don't turn up at my door like they did when Mr Brittney Spears posted a while back) or our Admin Guru (!!!???) just has no idea about the real world.
Mr Guru I would love to take you flying in my little plastic wonder, and we could see how good your PPL flying really is compared to some of our students. Come out and play some time <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Tonks <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
This is either the best windup for a while (though I hope the feds don't turn up at my door like they did when Mr Brittney Spears posted a while back) or our Admin Guru (!!!???) just has no idea about the real world.
Mr Guru I would love to take you flying in my little plastic wonder, and we could see how good your PPL flying really is compared to some of our students. Come out and play some time <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Tonks <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
....or you could come and fly one of my little metal aeroplanes which are allowed into cloud (sorry, Tonks!) on your PPL. If you passed the Club check, of course.... Not for free though, sorry, - and you'd be amazed how well we do without any admin wallahs and their pettyfogging bureacracy getting in the way of running our small company! E.g. - an instructor puts in his/her claim, I trust him/her to be honest and I sign the cheque there and then. It's so easy - try it!!
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Admin Guru
Sorry sorry missed you at Happy Hour.
had to go on standby with some nice boys.
As one Fri in 2 for about 12 yrs.
Your skills as a wind-up merchant are actually quite impressive.
Now please don't wind the men up any more, it does bad things to their blood pressure, or at least just stay away from the flyers - oops forgot you are one - may I worship at your feet? Just a teensy thought - can you leave your attitude on the ground? then it will only annoy people, not kill people.
lots of love
sven
Kissy kissy
Sorry sorry missed you at Happy Hour.
had to go on standby with some nice boys.
As one Fri in 2 for about 12 yrs.
Your skills as a wind-up merchant are actually quite impressive.
Now please don't wind the men up any more, it does bad things to their blood pressure, or at least just stay away from the flyers - oops forgot you are one - may I worship at your feet? Just a teensy thought - can you leave your attitude on the ground? then it will only annoy people, not kill people.
lots of love
sven
Kissy kissy
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One or two of you are using a rather wide tarry brush when referring to those of us who only have PPLs. Please remember that, for most of us who only have a PPL:-
1. It`s all we need.
2. We paid for it ourselves.
3. It`s our hobby, not our job.
4. With the training you had, at our expense, you damn well better be better at it than we are.
5. Before you come back at me with some remark you think is clever, think about Truck/Bus drivers and how unhappy you would be if they were as condecending of your driving abilities.
Mike W.
P.S. Your Flying pay, or not flying, but I could if they asked me to, Pay, is probably more than I get for fixing your Aeroplanes, refuelling them, strapping them to your arses and standing there in the cold and wet whilst yo.........
1. It`s all we need.
2. We paid for it ourselves.
3. It`s our hobby, not our job.
4. With the training you had, at our expense, you damn well better be better at it than we are.
5. Before you come back at me with some remark you think is clever, think about Truck/Bus drivers and how unhappy you would be if they were as condecending of your driving abilities.
Mike W.
P.S. Your Flying pay, or not flying, but I could if they asked me to, Pay, is probably more than I get for fixing your Aeroplanes, refuelling them, strapping them to your arses and standing there in the cold and wet whilst yo.........
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Skylark
happy to have you sharing the sky mate.
Most of us started in the same place.
And I can't fix my own aircraft.
But our blunt friend seems to think that his recreational qualification allows him to judge my professional skills. This leaves me worrying about what else he thinks himself professionally competent to do outside his own professional skills.
happy to have you sharing the sky mate.
Most of us started in the same place.
And I can't fix my own aircraft.
But our blunt friend seems to think that his recreational qualification allows him to judge my professional skills. This leaves me worrying about what else he thinks himself professionally competent to do outside his own professional skills.
Guest
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Methinks AG didn't make it to University, didn't get through aircrew selection, ( or did and then washed out), and instead of turning his back on the RAF and taking his talents elsewhere he joined anyway - but now finds it hard to swallow the bitter pill of failure.
The brevet denotes someone who has passed a course and gained a qualification that involves being in an aircraft. Quite wrong for non-flyers to wear a brevet, just as wrong as the odd few who get 'honorary' wings when posted to a senior staff appointment within Army Aviation.
The brevet denotes someone who has passed a course and gained a qualification that involves being in an aircraft. Quite wrong for non-flyers to wear a brevet, just as wrong as the odd few who get 'honorary' wings when posted to a senior staff appointment within Army Aviation.
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Having been a support person for some 20 years in a military and civil enviroment I think that AG is speaking just for himself and doesn't represent anymore than a small ignorant minority. His comment about having a PPL so therefore understands your job is also bizarre. What does surprise me a little is the attack on civil flying/pilots by some of your UAS people with comments such as 'what is civil flying anyway' and 'imbecilic doddering civil pilots'. We all know you guys get the best training and best instruction ( I know, I pay for it!) but that doesn't give you the right to think that everyone else is crap. Perhaps JJJ and Bounce would like to come along with one of your Grobs to an aerobatic contest and we will see whose inverted spins, negative flicks and rolling circles are best! The first lesson in flying should be humility.
Having been both a student and a QFI at a UAS and later a civil PPL examiner, my comparison between UAS flying and PPL flying is that the UAS wins on taking aeroplanes (well, before Das Teutor) to their limits, has the attraction of endless aeros, formation flying and a bit of low level (again, before the wretched Teutor), and generally requires a higher standard of airmanship and checklist knowledge.
BUT, and it is a big BUT, the average standard of theoretical knowledge of UK airspace, technical subjects, etc, etc taught at a UAS is pretty low. The biggest weakness shown by ex-UAS students is navigation. Most of them are lucky to be able to find their own backsides without a mirror; they have probably only flown a very limited number of easy navigation exercises which someone else chose for them in any case, have no idea about use of RT when communicating with anyone other than military radar units. The navigation 'instruction' seems to be based on the premise that the absolute minimum amount of medium level navigation is taught before they can start low level flying; at CFS the standard of navigation instruction when I went through was dismal - the only subject for which there was no 4-colour board brief and which most QFIs at my UAS couldn't be arsed to teach in any case (many actively avoided it!) Have things improved nowadays?
In summary, UAS flying teaches pilots sound airmanship and how to operate their aeroplanes towards their limits; PPL flying teaches people who just want to fly for fun and to take their friends from A to B how to do so in safety but it also gives them a far better level of theoretical knowledge than the UAS Janet-and-John books provided to their pilots when I was QFI-ing at a UAS. (I'd been far better taught when I was a UAS student on Chipmunks - we used to get proper groundschool instruction from our QFIs on training nights and had to write essay type answers for the Central Examining Board PFB exams.......but that was before multi-guess 'crit point' books came in, of course.)
Probably a bit controversial - but the weakest point noted at BAeS Prestwick during the trial ME training to RAF students (ex-BFS, not just UAS!!) some years ago was their low and inadequate level of theoretical knowledge, particularly about the UK airspace in which they'd been flying for many years....
Sorry for droning on a bit and going off-topic; Admin Guru may have made some very stupid remarks about some things, but the derogatory comments about PPL flyers made by some ignorant UAS students needed balancing!
[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
BUT, and it is a big BUT, the average standard of theoretical knowledge of UK airspace, technical subjects, etc, etc taught at a UAS is pretty low. The biggest weakness shown by ex-UAS students is navigation. Most of them are lucky to be able to find their own backsides without a mirror; they have probably only flown a very limited number of easy navigation exercises which someone else chose for them in any case, have no idea about use of RT when communicating with anyone other than military radar units. The navigation 'instruction' seems to be based on the premise that the absolute minimum amount of medium level navigation is taught before they can start low level flying; at CFS the standard of navigation instruction when I went through was dismal - the only subject for which there was no 4-colour board brief and which most QFIs at my UAS couldn't be arsed to teach in any case (many actively avoided it!) Have things improved nowadays?
In summary, UAS flying teaches pilots sound airmanship and how to operate their aeroplanes towards their limits; PPL flying teaches people who just want to fly for fun and to take their friends from A to B how to do so in safety but it also gives them a far better level of theoretical knowledge than the UAS Janet-and-John books provided to their pilots when I was QFI-ing at a UAS. (I'd been far better taught when I was a UAS student on Chipmunks - we used to get proper groundschool instruction from our QFIs on training nights and had to write essay type answers for the Central Examining Board PFB exams.......but that was before multi-guess 'crit point' books came in, of course.)
Probably a bit controversial - but the weakest point noted at BAeS Prestwick during the trial ME training to RAF students (ex-BFS, not just UAS!!) some years ago was their low and inadequate level of theoretical knowledge, particularly about the UK airspace in which they'd been flying for many years....
Sorry for droning on a bit and going off-topic; Admin Guru may have made some very stupid remarks about some things, but the derogatory comments about PPL flyers made by some ignorant UAS students needed balancing!
[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
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BEagle:
Hmmm, where to start? I don't think any of the staff on my UAS would be too happy with your description of our flying (and their instructional) talents. While hopefully no UAS chaps claim to know anything like everthing about flying in general, its a bit of a sweeping statement about the UAS system to claim that we couldn't nav our way through and open door.
Many of the instructors make a point of you planning your own navs, with only LL entry points and targets given to you, and at PNT level not even that.
Now whilst i'm not saying we are all great at nav (in fact, not even that i'm great at nav!), it doesn't mean that everyone in the UAS system is appalling either. I can't fly formation for toffee, but i know some guys who are better than the QFIs - everyone's good at something.
With regard to my remarks about PPL holders in my previous post, i didn't mean to tar all with the same brush and i apologise for sounding so derogatory. However, i guess Admin Gimps 'comments' just riled me a touch. I will hopefully be starting a PPL course in the summer, using the crossover for hours they are doing. As only 2 exams (and the FHT-equivalent) are needed to switch from UAS to civvie flying (i believe), then maybe the knowledge gap between the two isn't as wide as many would think.
I know that many serving guys in the RAF deride UAS studes as 'unproffessional student layabouts', but not all of us think we know it all, its just a few bad apples spoiling it for everyone.
Now, back to that Admin Gimp...
Hmmm, where to start? I don't think any of the staff on my UAS would be too happy with your description of our flying (and their instructional) talents. While hopefully no UAS chaps claim to know anything like everthing about flying in general, its a bit of a sweeping statement about the UAS system to claim that we couldn't nav our way through and open door.
Many of the instructors make a point of you planning your own navs, with only LL entry points and targets given to you, and at PNT level not even that.
Now whilst i'm not saying we are all great at nav (in fact, not even that i'm great at nav!), it doesn't mean that everyone in the UAS system is appalling either. I can't fly formation for toffee, but i know some guys who are better than the QFIs - everyone's good at something.
With regard to my remarks about PPL holders in my previous post, i didn't mean to tar all with the same brush and i apologise for sounding so derogatory. However, i guess Admin Gimps 'comments' just riled me a touch. I will hopefully be starting a PPL course in the summer, using the crossover for hours they are doing. As only 2 exams (and the FHT-equivalent) are needed to switch from UAS to civvie flying (i believe), then maybe the knowledge gap between the two isn't as wide as many would think.
I know that many serving guys in the RAF deride UAS studes as 'unproffessional student layabouts', but not all of us think we know it all, its just a few bad apples spoiling it for everyone.
Now, back to that Admin Gimp...