Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
Airborne Aircrew:
Good post AA. You sum up the situation with enviable clarity. I endorse everything you say, merely adding in a far more mundane manner that the only way that we can expect the win that you mention above is to have an independent MAA and MAAIB entirely separate from the MOD. If that is not the outcome then we do not win.
The winners could be every pilot and other crewmen that fly RAF aircraft and every passenger that ever dares to set foot on one.
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My apologies Chugs... The thrust of my message was that the repairs would make it impossible for the past failings to continue which would, indeed, require the independent oversight you have campaigned for. My "clarity" left something to be desired...
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There have been many false dawns these last 17 years. For every moment we believed a summit had been reached, hopes have been dashed. I can only hope today's news is not one of them. Even if Lord Philip finds the pilots to have been unfairly blamed, that is simply the start of another battle, since only the Royal Air Force have it in their power to change the finding of their own Board of Inquiry.
However, it must be said: How often do they have to be told they got it WRONG! For the reputation of the service in which I was honoured to serve, they must act now! This issue is bigger than any individuals. It has the capacity to trash the modern reputation of an organisation who's 'few' defended the free world!
Let right be done for heaven's sake!
There will be no celebrating, and no gloating. Merely people standing quietly at gravesides drinking a tearful toast to those to whom a debt was owed.
And paid.
Never will those who knew them, forget them.
And if necessary, we will begin again. And again, and again!
However, it must be said: How often do they have to be told they got it WRONG! For the reputation of the service in which I was honoured to serve, they must act now! This issue is bigger than any individuals. It has the capacity to trash the modern reputation of an organisation who's 'few' defended the free world!
Let right be done for heaven's sake!
There will be no celebrating, and no gloating. Merely people standing quietly at gravesides drinking a tearful toast to those to whom a debt was owed.
And paid.
Never will those who knew them, forget them.
And if necessary, we will begin again. And again, and again!
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Airborne Aircrew
Whilst I now nothing new other than what I have seen on the news this evening, and I have enjoyed many beers, I hope the findings of the enquiry are that there was reasonable doubt as to the cause of the accident, hence negligence was a bollox finding.
That for me was the issue, with no CVFDR the board could not eliminate many possible scenario's so, according to the rules at the time, they should not have found the crew negligent. This does not mean that the board did not identify the most likely scenario, and I think it unlikely (but possible) there was airworthiness issue with the chinook fleet at the time.
I knew Jon and Rick well and after many years of injustice, I hope their names are cleared
Whilst I now nothing new other than what I have seen on the news this evening, and I have enjoyed many beers, I hope the findings of the enquiry are that there was reasonable doubt as to the cause of the accident, hence negligence was a bollox finding.
That for me was the issue, with no CVFDR the board could not eliminate many possible scenario's so, according to the rules at the time, they should not have found the crew negligent. This does not mean that the board did not identify the most likely scenario, and I think it unlikely (but possible) there was airworthiness issue with the chinook fleet at the time.
I knew Jon and Rick well and after many years of injustice, I hope their names are cleared
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Chugalug2
Many thanks for your post #8043. The weasel words of "Sir" Michael Graydon on the Radio 4 link almost defy belief. His is the mindset which has prevented justice from being done well before now. Sadly, I have it on good authority that "Stars" have not only followed the same line ever since the tragedy, but that their current successors are slavishly following in their footsteps.
What a tragedy for our beloved Royal Air Force.
What a tragedy for our beloved Royal Air Force.
Last edited by Vertico; 9th Jul 2011 at 23:24. Reason: Clarification
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Fingers crossed for this week, Tandems post not only sums the whole thing up but brought a very big lump to my throat.
Wratten et al I wish you no ill but I sincerely do hope your day comes soon.
Wratten et al I wish you no ill but I sincerely do hope your day comes soon.
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It remains a tragedy that it has taken so long to bring this matter within a gnat's breadth of a conclusion. It is a credit to Brian Dixon for starting what is probably one of the longest threads on the Internet. It is a credit to the forum for allowing us to indulge ourselves here over the years. I would refer you to my earlier postings, but they are no longer appropriate.
I really wish the senior airships would understand what they have done and the harm they have caused. They seem blissfully unaware of the depth of feeling at 'our' level. They still seem blissfully unaware that so many of us, with differing levels of experience (my 1000+ hours on SH are as nothing to some who contribute here), do not understand how they reached the conclusions they did no matter how much we read those conclusions .
It would be nice to think, as others have hinted, that some good will come out of this and the system will be improved for the collective good of those who serve now and those who have yet to serve.
I really wish the senior airships would understand what they have done and the harm they have caused. They seem blissfully unaware of the depth of feeling at 'our' level. They still seem blissfully unaware that so many of us, with differing levels of experience (my 1000+ hours on SH are as nothing to some who contribute here), do not understand how they reached the conclusions they did no matter how much we read those conclusions .
It would be nice to think, as others have hinted, that some good will come out of this and the system will be improved for the collective good of those who serve now and those who have yet to serve.
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The Wheels of Justice turn exceedingly slowly.
Hopefully the crew will finally be fully exonerated, and also hopefully those responsible for the original travesty of justice will get their just deserts.
No more reading the delusional rantings of the supporters of Wrotten and Day.
A very hearty "Well done Brian and team".
HectorusRex
No more reading the delusional rantings of the supporters of Wrotten and Day.
A very hearty "Well done Brian and team".
HectorusRex
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A hearty congratulations to the the core of folk who have worked so hard to keep this injustice at the forefront of everyone's minds. It has taken an unbelievably long time to get a result that, to right-thinking people, was obvious from the start. But Dark Forces have worked very hard to make the process painful and slow. Nevertheless, grim determination that natural justice should prevail has seen the process through. Those of you close to this matter can be very, very proud indeed! 
I'm going to have to take a contrary view there - I want to see heads on stakes! And it is pretty obvious whose heads they should be. 
[Sir William Wratten, my 4rse! Bill the Bonehead, more like ........]
Wratten et al I wish you no ill but I sincerely do hope your day comes soon.
[Sir William Wratten, my 4rse! Bill the Bonehead, more like ........]
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But Dark Forces have worked very hard to make the process painful and slow.
But Dark Forces have worked very hard to make the process painful and slow.
DV
Sorry, that should be 19 years (1992 to 2011)
Last edited by Distant Voice; 10th Jul 2011 at 18:24. Reason: correction
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It is perhaps a measure of how red faced MoD is over this issue that the finding has been leaked over a weekend when the press is in a self-obsessed feeding frenzy over the demise of the News of the Screws.
Well done Brian and all at the MoKG.
Well done Brian and all at the MoKG.
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Well done, Brian & Co!
What a shame that it took so long.
The sad thing is that it wasn't in my view about airmanship, it was about interpretation of the englsh languge. The [I]beyond a shodow of doubt" element always failed because ACM W & Co were trying to prove a negative.
Do I recall him saying in the HoL or one of the other hearings, "there is no other explanation"
This is way short of the proof needed for gross negligence.
What a shame that it took so long.
The sad thing is that it wasn't in my view about airmanship, it was about interpretation of the englsh languge. The [I]beyond a shodow of doubt" element always failed because ACM W & Co were trying to prove a negative.
Do I recall him saying in the HoL or one of the other hearings, "there is no other explanation"
This is way short of the proof needed for gross negligence.
Last edited by chippy63; 11th Jul 2011 at 00:57.
Unfortunately i dont have time to read thru the thousands of posts on this topic, so i hope someone can please provide an answer to this question. If the pilots have been cleared of blame for the crash, then why EXACTLY did it crash? It just seems common sense to me that you cant do the former without knowing the latter. I dont know much about it and that question just popped into my mind. Thnx.
Last edited by Private jet; 13th Jul 2011 at 10:13.