Spotters jailed in Greece!
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Spotters jailed in Greece!
Britons face spy charges in Greece
ATHENS (Reuters) - Twelve Britons are due to appear in a Greek court on Monday charged with spying, a British diplomat has said.
The tourists, who were visiting an air show in the south western town of Kalamata, were arrested on November 8 and were still in custody.
"They have been charged and there will be a court hearing tomorrow," British embassy consul Donald Holden told Reuters.
The detainees had legal representation and were in good health, he said.
Many Greek airbases had open days on November 8 which marks the feast day of Michael, the patron saint of the air force.
The Britons, 11 men and a woman, have denied the charges and say they are members of an aviation enthusiasts' club in the UK.
The court will decide whether there is enough evidence to proceed with a trial, or dismiss it.
Photographing military installations in Greece is strictly forbidden.
ATHENS (Reuters) - Twelve Britons are due to appear in a Greek court on Monday charged with spying, a British diplomat has said.
The tourists, who were visiting an air show in the south western town of Kalamata, were arrested on November 8 and were still in custody.
"They have been charged and there will be a court hearing tomorrow," British embassy consul Donald Holden told Reuters.
The detainees had legal representation and were in good health, he said.
Many Greek airbases had open days on November 8 which marks the feast day of Michael, the patron saint of the air force.
The Britons, 11 men and a woman, have denied the charges and say they are members of an aviation enthusiasts' club in the UK.
The court will decide whether there is enough evidence to proceed with a trial, or dismiss it.
Photographing military installations in Greece is strictly forbidden.
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Just been a item on the news about this,they were on a arranged paid plane spotting holiday, on a airbase on a open day?, their camera's left on the bus because they were aware of the laws concerning photographing military instalations.
I think Johnny the greek is after exchanging them for those Elgin Marbles.
I think Johnny the greek is after exchanging them for those Elgin Marbles.
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During the Kosovo war, I went to a joint military / civilian airfeld, to do a compass swing on an aircraft. I set up the watts datum compass, in preperation for the swing. Minutes later, the tower called on the radio, requesting that we remove the camera!
We reminded them why we were their and what the equipment was, ie. just a compass.
Just shows you how strict they might be.
We reminded them why we were their and what the equipment was, ie. just a compass.
Just shows you how strict they might be.
....apparently they also had written permission to attend from the Greek Authorities, beats the hell outta me!
The organisers publicity blurb can be found at the following:
Touchdown Tours
The organisers publicity blurb can be found at the following:
Touchdown Tours
These airshows are apparently intended for families and locals, and are certainly s'posed to be for Greek citizens only.
And this rather accident prone tour operator should have known that.
One can only hope that this misunderstanding will be quickly and panlessly resolved however, without the need for a Kebab/yoghurt embargo.
And this rather accident prone tour operator should have known that.
One can only hope that this misunderstanding will be quickly and panlessly resolved however, without the need for a Kebab/yoghurt embargo.
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Latest statistics have also revealed that 2.5 train spotters get knocked down by trains every year. There are omens to be followed and morals to be drawn everywhere these days 
And Tony, as for the Elgin Marbles, boll**ks to that! Just let the Greeks have Elgin; we'll keep hold of the marbles!!
And Tony, as for the Elgin Marbles, boll**ks to that! Just let the Greeks have Elgin; we'll keep hold of the marbles!!
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How about sending the marbles to a new Greek-owned and run Parthenon museum in Elgin?
Surely an opportunity for the new Scottish First Minister to help resolve an international crisis....
Surely an opportunity for the new Scottish First Minister to help resolve an international crisis....
None but a blockhead
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That new Greek GSCE: exclusive preview.
Translate the following phrases into demotic Greek (10 marks):
1. I am only looking at your planes because they give me a stiffie.
2. The weather is hot, but I will not remove my anorak.
3. This taramasalata in pitta bread is no good. Do you have fishpaste in Kingsmill?
4. My scanner has fallen into the ouzo.
5. Although these are times of international tension, I assert my basic human right to fill my notebook with details of your air movements.
6. Your airfield is big, but not as big as that of the Turks.
7. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Please use a rubber glove when you remove my biro.
8. Is that an ELINT aircraft hiding behind the tree?
9. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. OUCH. Please use a rubber glove when you remove my copy of Jane's.
10. And let me know if you ever do find the biro.
R
Translate the following phrases into demotic Greek (10 marks):
1. I am only looking at your planes because they give me a stiffie.
2. The weather is hot, but I will not remove my anorak.
3. This taramasalata in pitta bread is no good. Do you have fishpaste in Kingsmill?
4. My scanner has fallen into the ouzo.
5. Although these are times of international tension, I assert my basic human right to fill my notebook with details of your air movements.
6. Your airfield is big, but not as big as that of the Turks.
7. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Please use a rubber glove when you remove my biro.
8. Is that an ELINT aircraft hiding behind the tree?
9. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. OUCH. Please use a rubber glove when you remove my copy of Jane's.
10. And let me know if you ever do find the biro.
R
In view of what a well-known publisher of spotters' books of numbers was jailed for some years ago, your point 7 (biro up the @rse) is very funny, I mean in very poor taste.
Funny that the press didn't pick up on the poor sod allegedly killed by T*******n T***s last year......
Perhaps they will, now!
Funny that the press didn't pick up on the poor sod allegedly killed by T*******n T***s last year......
Perhaps they will, now!
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All joking aside, it's a very serious matter not only for the individuals who have been detained, but also their families.
I have known one of the detainees for 30 years, and I found out on Saturday when his wife called me, in tears, to ask if I could help.
Since then, approaches have been made to MP's, MEP's, the Greek Embassy, Greek Defence Ministry, UK Foreign Office and others.
These people face serious charges because of a misunderstanding; the tour was approved by the Greek Authorities, with a "no photos at the Air Show" clause. This was adhered to.
Whilst it's the done thing to mock plane spotting, many enthusiasts are either part of the industry, or end up as part of it through their interests.
At the end of the day, these people have families and loved ones desperate for their release; some homes in the UK have been under siege by the media,
We all hope that Friday will bring good news, but if any ppruners know of a way to assist, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to all.
I have known one of the detainees for 30 years, and I found out on Saturday when his wife called me, in tears, to ask if I could help.
Since then, approaches have been made to MP's, MEP's, the Greek Embassy, Greek Defence Ministry, UK Foreign Office and others.
These people face serious charges because of a misunderstanding; the tour was approved by the Greek Authorities, with a "no photos at the Air Show" clause. This was adhered to.
Whilst it's the done thing to mock plane spotting, many enthusiasts are either part of the industry, or end up as part of it through their interests.
At the end of the day, these people have families and loved ones desperate for their release; some homes in the UK have been under siege by the media,
We all hope that Friday will bring good news, but if any ppruners know of a way to assist, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to all.
I’m normally fairly ‘pro-spotter’, since some of them read my deathless prose and buy my books, and help pay my wages. Many sensible members of the forces, and the aviation industry, begin with ‘spotterish tendencies’. But I’ve never understood the fanatical desire some of them have for noting down every number, and for seeing every last example of a particular aircraft type present at a particular base, without wanting to take photos, learn more about what they’re seeing, watch them fly, talk to air and groundcrew, etc. I’ve laughed and poked fun at spotters (haven’t we all) but I’ve begun to stop laughing at the new ‘Guerrilla Spotter’ types who will go to any lengths to ‘log numbers’, ignoring the law and good sense in their pursuit of maximising the number of numbers they jot down.
It seems that the chap who runs the organisation which organised the trip to Greece (T******** T****) reportedly has a record as being just such a ‘Guerrilla Spotter’, and today I’ve come across three different enthusiast's reports of his prior activities. This doesn't mean that all Spotters should be tarred with this brush, nor even that all of those on this trip deserve to be associated with him.
ONE:
“That went down well here - and with a few of my mates, who hate that T******** creep. He is a real *******, and l intend to put the bastard out of business. Fancy getting all those anoraks arrested !!! Poor smelly sods. Greasy hair, fat, bloated, and that's just the Greek prison warders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yes. They were driving two minibuses along in Texas ( ?), and there was a road accident, details unknown, in which one of the passengers was thrown from the vehicle and hit by a truck. The guy was an air traffic contrroller, l believe, and he was brought home in an RAF C-130.
This Paul bloke from T******* is an arrogant bastard, and most unfriendly, until he wants something. Then he is nice as pie. They can let the rest come home, but detain him indefinitely.”
TWO:
“I have just read the BBC report on the internet. It seems the Greeks have taken the issue of "spotting" as espionage. It seems also that what is acceptable to us here in England, as an ordinary everyday past time, is viewed with distrust elsewhere. I believe Messrs T******** were apprehended at a Romanian base in August, which cost me and my party, who were at another Romanian base at the time, a lost visit to the Hong (IL-28) base. Eventually the Romanians relented, and re-arranged the visit, but it was touch and go. I firmly believe that the activities of T********, border on the dangerous,and anyone thinking of going on such visits should seriously consider their welfare. The order of the day seems to be, get every number, no matter what....
Anyone who has been on a T******** tour care to comment ??
I for one will not be going anywhere near a T******** tour, but then l am only a photographer, and no longer a spotter.”
THREE:
“The incident in Romania you refer to was recounted to me the other day by a friend, apparantly, at a base in Romania there was a large group of stored MiG's which were inaccessable to Paul and the T******** party, they tried driving a minibus around to the MiG's but were turned back by an armed guard. Not content with this they drove around the outside of the base until they reached the closest point to the line up where Paul parked the minibus and climbed over the rather small fence and walked over to the MiG's. Here he was greeted by the same guard who was by now understandably quite angry, 7 hours of questioning later they were instructed to leave the country and not to visit the airshow at Constanta or any other Romanian airfields. Did they leave, naaah, they just went to the show. As told to me, I have no idea how true it is.
Another incident is alleged to have occurred in Turkey earlier this year during the anniversary airshow. I am led to believe that the group were collared at Bandirma, I don't know why, and released after questioning. At the airshow Paul took it upon himself to enter a fenced off shelter compound and enter approximately 20 hardened shelter doors (the small personal entry doors to the rear, not the main doors!!) to read off T-37's within. He was lucky, he didn't get caught. If he had I doubt he would have been able to visit Greece! If indeed this story is true- again I have no idea, I wasn't there.
If either of these stories has been told to me wrongly then I apologise and feel free to correct me. I don't know how true these stories are but ........ having travelled far and wide with them I have to say I would not be surprised at all....... I have seen Paul break into a hangar through an unlocked window so that he could read off the 2 or 3 UH-1's inside! I made a conscious decision 5 or so years ago that life really was too short to risk it on a T******** tour. I loved the trips I really didn't feel it worth the risk.”
Makes you wonder whether our sympathy is well-placed?
It seems that the chap who runs the organisation which organised the trip to Greece (T******** T****) reportedly has a record as being just such a ‘Guerrilla Spotter’, and today I’ve come across three different enthusiast's reports of his prior activities. This doesn't mean that all Spotters should be tarred with this brush, nor even that all of those on this trip deserve to be associated with him.
ONE:
“That went down well here - and with a few of my mates, who hate that T******** creep. He is a real *******, and l intend to put the bastard out of business. Fancy getting all those anoraks arrested !!! Poor smelly sods. Greasy hair, fat, bloated, and that's just the Greek prison warders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yes. They were driving two minibuses along in Texas ( ?), and there was a road accident, details unknown, in which one of the passengers was thrown from the vehicle and hit by a truck. The guy was an air traffic contrroller, l believe, and he was brought home in an RAF C-130.
This Paul bloke from T******* is an arrogant bastard, and most unfriendly, until he wants something. Then he is nice as pie. They can let the rest come home, but detain him indefinitely.”
TWO:
“I have just read the BBC report on the internet. It seems the Greeks have taken the issue of "spotting" as espionage. It seems also that what is acceptable to us here in England, as an ordinary everyday past time, is viewed with distrust elsewhere. I believe Messrs T******** were apprehended at a Romanian base in August, which cost me and my party, who were at another Romanian base at the time, a lost visit to the Hong (IL-28) base. Eventually the Romanians relented, and re-arranged the visit, but it was touch and go. I firmly believe that the activities of T********, border on the dangerous,and anyone thinking of going on such visits should seriously consider their welfare. The order of the day seems to be, get every number, no matter what....
Anyone who has been on a T******** tour care to comment ??
I for one will not be going anywhere near a T******** tour, but then l am only a photographer, and no longer a spotter.”
THREE:
“The incident in Romania you refer to was recounted to me the other day by a friend, apparantly, at a base in Romania there was a large group of stored MiG's which were inaccessable to Paul and the T******** party, they tried driving a minibus around to the MiG's but were turned back by an armed guard. Not content with this they drove around the outside of the base until they reached the closest point to the line up where Paul parked the minibus and climbed over the rather small fence and walked over to the MiG's. Here he was greeted by the same guard who was by now understandably quite angry, 7 hours of questioning later they were instructed to leave the country and not to visit the airshow at Constanta or any other Romanian airfields. Did they leave, naaah, they just went to the show. As told to me, I have no idea how true it is.
Another incident is alleged to have occurred in Turkey earlier this year during the anniversary airshow. I am led to believe that the group were collared at Bandirma, I don't know why, and released after questioning. At the airshow Paul took it upon himself to enter a fenced off shelter compound and enter approximately 20 hardened shelter doors (the small personal entry doors to the rear, not the main doors!!) to read off T-37's within. He was lucky, he didn't get caught. If he had I doubt he would have been able to visit Greece! If indeed this story is true- again I have no idea, I wasn't there.
If either of these stories has been told to me wrongly then I apologise and feel free to correct me. I don't know how true these stories are but ........ having travelled far and wide with them I have to say I would not be surprised at all....... I have seen Paul break into a hangar through an unlocked window so that he could read off the 2 or 3 UH-1's inside! I made a conscious decision 5 or so years ago that life really was too short to risk it on a T******** tour. I loved the trips I really didn't feel it worth the risk.”
Makes you wonder whether our sympathy is well-placed?
Jacko' has a point - the harmless observation of aircraft is one thing, but forced entry, trespass and refusing to obey the directions of the security personnel would indeed look like espionage to some.
However, just to confuse the sort of ar$e who (we knew) would be likely to poke a lens through an office window at an 'Open Day' in order to get inside knowledge of aircraft serviceability, etc, someone (can't imagine who.....) once drew up a splendid spoof serviceability board with all sorts of nonsense on it and left it on the office wall opposite the largest window at a particular RAF base.
I wonder whether the bloke with the all the badges and the notebook is still pondering the 'Sidewinder mod. programme' for the 'reserve Hunter fleet'.........??
However, just to confuse the sort of ar$e who (we knew) would be likely to poke a lens through an office window at an 'Open Day' in order to get inside knowledge of aircraft serviceability, etc, someone (can't imagine who.....) once drew up a splendid spoof serviceability board with all sorts of nonsense on it and left it on the office wall opposite the largest window at a particular RAF base.
I wonder whether the bloke with the all the badges and the notebook is still pondering the 'Sidewinder mod. programme' for the 'reserve Hunter fleet'.........??
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LOL. Of course the Swiss fitted Sidewinders to some of their Hunters...
Touchdown Tours (why the asterisks Jacko? The name has been widely reported) do indeed have a bit of a rep for sailing close to the wind, and Paul wossname isn't the most popular chap around. Notably he was just about the only person to continue posting detailed info on movements at Mildenhall after September 11, when most sane spotters had retired to their hovels for some gardening rather than bothering twitchy security bods and providing info of possible use to the Forces of Evil (however unlikely).
Touchdown Tours (why the asterisks Jacko? The name has been widely reported) do indeed have a bit of a rep for sailing close to the wind, and Paul wossname isn't the most popular chap around. Notably he was just about the only person to continue posting detailed info on movements at Mildenhall after September 11, when most sane spotters had retired to their hovels for some gardening rather than bothering twitchy security bods and providing info of possible use to the Forces of Evil (however unlikely).
When I was first told that it was P**l P**p*n's mob, I was told "Please don't tell anyone that its T******** t***s. Drop hints so that people who know who they are will know, but don't spell it out in black and white." Hence the asterisks.
Good point on the Mildenhall movements, BTW. Most spotters have been very responsible about not reporting and circulating info relating to 'Enduring Freedom' and 'Veritas', whereas T*8 have reportedly listed all movements on their site. Do you have the URL for it, 'cos I'm embarrassed to say that I'm slagging them off on the basis of second hand info, and haven't ever looked at it.
Good game, BEagle, you incorrigible old rogue, you!
Good point on the Mildenhall movements, BTW. Most spotters have been very responsible about not reporting and circulating info relating to 'Enduring Freedom' and 'Veritas', whereas T*8 have reportedly listed all movements on their site. Do you have the URL for it, 'cos I'm embarrassed to say that I'm slagging them off on the basis of second hand info, and haven't ever looked at it.
Good game, BEagle, you incorrigible old rogue, you!
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Their mailing list is to be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Touchdown-News
They do not appear to have a web site as such for reporting movements, but have this site for their tours (it makes funny reading right now):
http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/2001_Tours.htm
And piccies from last year's Greek trip here (but surely their cameras were left in the van?!):
http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: DeeBee ]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Touchdown-News
They do not appear to have a web site as such for reporting movements, but have this site for their tours (it makes funny reading right now):
http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/2001_Tours.htm
And piccies from last year's Greek trip here (but surely their cameras were left in the van?!):
http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: DeeBee ]
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Well, you've all made your points of view quite clear, I must say.
Whatever the group may or may not have done is of course open to much speculation, but of course without rumours, we'd have no forum anyway.
My original posting was as much for the families of the detainees as for the miscreants themselves. You could argue that they knew the risks and shouldn't have gone, that's of no help to wives, children, fathers, mothers...I could go on.
Aviation is a world-wide affair, we can all get in trouble in a foreign land through misunderstandings and I'd like to think that we're a network with similar interest in aviation - we don't just do it for the money, as I'm sure we all remind ourselves when that meagre paycheck arrives.
I don't know every member of the party in Greece, but I'm willing to wager that some of them are connected with the aviation industry, and as such, worthy of our help.
So, I'll get off the soapbox now, if nobody gives a rat's about Paul, then fair enough, but as I said originally, I have known one of the guys for 30 years, and he's got a wife and kids wondering if he's coming home this week. Do it for them, eh?????
Whatever the group may or may not have done is of course open to much speculation, but of course without rumours, we'd have no forum anyway.
My original posting was as much for the families of the detainees as for the miscreants themselves. You could argue that they knew the risks and shouldn't have gone, that's of no help to wives, children, fathers, mothers...I could go on.
Aviation is a world-wide affair, we can all get in trouble in a foreign land through misunderstandings and I'd like to think that we're a network with similar interest in aviation - we don't just do it for the money, as I'm sure we all remind ourselves when that meagre paycheck arrives.
I don't know every member of the party in Greece, but I'm willing to wager that some of them are connected with the aviation industry, and as such, worthy of our help.
So, I'll get off the soapbox now, if nobody gives a rat's about Paul, then fair enough, but as I said originally, I have known one of the guys for 30 years, and he's got a wife and kids wondering if he's coming home this week. Do it for them, eh?????
Just adding a 'point of information' which had some bearing on the matter, especially in view of the "Innocent victims of Greek over-reaction" line that has been pushed.
On this occasion they may have been completely innocent and entirely blameless, and even if they weren't, I'd have though that deporting them and confiscating equipment would have been less of an over-reaction than locking them up and charging them with espionage.
I hope they all come home to their families (who are undeniably innocent victims) safe, sound and soon - and if any wrong was done, perhaps chastened and wiser, too.
On this occasion they may have been completely innocent and entirely blameless, and even if they weren't, I'd have though that deporting them and confiscating equipment would have been less of an over-reaction than locking them up and charging them with espionage.
I hope they all come home to their families (who are undeniably innocent victims) safe, sound and soon - and if any wrong was done, perhaps chastened and wiser, too.