aircrew retention latest
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Smoke and Mirrors.
Sounded great in the House. Public Dept 2 HMIT making room for 40% of the dosh.
£13.17p a day (thats about 60 fags for those that do!) for 10 years for those who were pension trapped and had little intention to leave anyway.
The restrictive terms of service for at least one of the Services, will mean that very few will qualify for any of the packages.
The PA Spine will be of little use to DE Officers for the Army boys. I understand most of their de-facto Spec Aircrew are LE ( & NCOs). Likely, that most of those LE will not have the 5 yr ROS to get onto the PA Pension Spine. The requirement for DE Officers (Pilot) will be "digits on one hand", a couple of Instructors and ETPS (RTS) chaps.
Q..If PA is by "selection" and you are a Upper Yardie, LE or Spec Aircrew..if you do not get selected..will you be treated as a CS type chappy for career purposes..mmmmmmm
Good news for the Army NCO pilots that qualify though. FRI 2 might be difficult at 22 year though..they will need extension of some sought.
Strange..last year, voluntary extension of service was seen as a "we do not need to pay you the(FRI) you if you have elected to stay"..this year we give you 30K !!because you have no intention of leaving!!
How does that work then?
That all said the ARRWG did an alround good job, of course the Treasury boys then had a play.
Good post Ghost...in a nutshell as they say.
Sounded great in the House. Public Dept 2 HMIT making room for 40% of the dosh.
£13.17p a day (thats about 60 fags for those that do!) for 10 years for those who were pension trapped and had little intention to leave anyway.
The restrictive terms of service for at least one of the Services, will mean that very few will qualify for any of the packages.
The PA Spine will be of little use to DE Officers for the Army boys. I understand most of their de-facto Spec Aircrew are LE ( & NCOs). Likely, that most of those LE will not have the 5 yr ROS to get onto the PA Pension Spine. The requirement for DE Officers (Pilot) will be "digits on one hand", a couple of Instructors and ETPS (RTS) chaps.
Q..If PA is by "selection" and you are a Upper Yardie, LE or Spec Aircrew..if you do not get selected..will you be treated as a CS type chappy for career purposes..mmmmmmm
Good news for the Army NCO pilots that qualify though. FRI 2 might be difficult at 22 year though..they will need extension of some sought.
Strange..last year, voluntary extension of service was seen as a "we do not need to pay you the(FRI) you if you have elected to stay"..this year we give you 30K !!because you have no intention of leaving!!
How does that work then?
That all said the ARRWG did an alround good job, of course the Treasury boys then had a play.
Good post Ghost...in a nutshell as they say.
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I'm led to believe that the AEOp Non-Renumerative measures comprise of new recruiting measures. These, i'm told are adverts in flash magazines, an AEOp website, changing the name to WSOp, new platform opportunities(2 vacancies to ASTOR), recruiting posters etc. I'd like to know if this is true? When the Aircrew retention team visited i asked why there was no Airman Aircrew element on the team, the reply was that they would look after our intrests. Looks like they failed on that one,but i'm sure they will get promoted for a bl**dy good job. They got the master race what they wanted but all they have done is to divide the unique good working relationship we have with the Officer types. Well done MOD you've really screwed things up now. I have never seen so many pi**ed off Airmen Aircrew, as i have seen today, for a long time. I'm sure this is a good signal to pass onto anyone within the service who wants to remuster to Airman Aircrew (NOT). I also noted that the AFPRB were concerned about the MOD's proposals, should be good to see what they have to say for themselves. It also seems that the numbers have been fudged, they appear to be looking at the amout of AEOp's leaving the RAF, what about the many who change to the overmanned GD (AEO) or the Ops Support branch, they still leave the AEOp trade short of manning, but the figures, still don't give us a retention problem only a recruiting one. Don't they realise that some are so sick of the AEOp trade, but dont want to lose job security, that they take up the Ops support game. Wearing the blinkers is great when it comes to financial matters. And you can stuff your secondary duties. Be careful out there folks.
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Have I got the wrong end of the stick???
The £30 000 hand-out to stay for 5 years is reduced to £18 000 by the tax man (fair enough we know we need to pay tax). Take off £10 000 LINKUP which has been recinded by this deal (even if I stay in beyond the 16/38 point I will be doing ATPLs). Result: £8000 net gain (a good second hand car). I understand that if you then fall ill and lose your flying cat you will be have to repay the original gross lump sum of £30 000 (which of course you will have already paid tax on).
If this is correct, then I feel that, what initially I believed to be a great deal (for the few who qualify!!) is in fact a classic case of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. It proves to be a bit of a stunt for the government to be able to have headlines slapped across the papers saying 'pilots given £30 000 package' when in fact few people qualify and in real terms we are not talking about a huge sum of money for a gamble that you will stay fit.
Will it still be possible to join the LINKUP scheme and not take the £30 000?
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: Dogstar ]</p>
The £30 000 hand-out to stay for 5 years is reduced to £18 000 by the tax man (fair enough we know we need to pay tax). Take off £10 000 LINKUP which has been recinded by this deal (even if I stay in beyond the 16/38 point I will be doing ATPLs). Result: £8000 net gain (a good second hand car). I understand that if you then fall ill and lose your flying cat you will be have to repay the original gross lump sum of £30 000 (which of course you will have already paid tax on).
If this is correct, then I feel that, what initially I believed to be a great deal (for the few who qualify!!) is in fact a classic case of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. It proves to be a bit of a stunt for the government to be able to have headlines slapped across the papers saying 'pilots given £30 000 package' when in fact few people qualify and in real terms we are not talking about a huge sum of money for a gamble that you will stay fit.
Will it still be possible to join the LINKUP scheme and not take the £30 000?
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: Dogstar ]</p>
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Sounded really good for a second or two. 36 at the end of Mar 02, so absolutely nothing in the bank until I decide what to do at 38. Still if I had been born a little later in the year and received the £5000, with the £10000 for linkup, would I be owing them some money?
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<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Someone help me out here...
Maybe I have misread or simply missed some of the details, but I have a couple of little niggling doubts about this package, and one huge misgiving.
First, if the goalposts on the "5 years to 38 for £30k (£18k)" package can be moved every year to account for market forces, then anyone signing up to the deal will effectively be speculating on the future employment market. Are they saying that in a couple of years' time, if all things are looking good (five years into the crystal ball of manning level prediction), then the FRI will be reduced?
Example: 2005 - FRI reduced to £10k at age 33, as period 2005-2010 is looking fine for aircrew. Result: no-one bothers to sign up for their £6k after tax for 5 years' commitment.... The following year, PMA realise (god forbid) that their estimates weren't correct, and they increase the FRI to £50k. Anyone who was eligible in '05 for £10k, will now be eligible for £40, pro-rata.
Stand-by for the pendulum effect....
Second: How exactly is the PA system giong to induce spec-aircrew types to stay? Unless, again, I have missed the point (very likely, as I am currently living in a tent by a runway and flying my @rse off...), then the "retention incentive" is again offering less than the pension and gratuity at IPP? Unless the pay rate is vastly different (in which case, why the £50k bung for five years), then here is Flt Lt Stay vs First Officer pi$$ off to BA at their 38 pt/IPP:
Flt Lt Stay: Gives up his right to a pension on PVR from Spec Aircrew (PA), gets £50k for extra five years' contract, on new terms of employment. Effectively will never get a pension until retirement on accepting the PA terms, therefor is closing all the financially viable or reasonable doors between age 38 and retirement on careers outside of the RAF.
FO pi$$ off to BA: Receives gratuity (say, £25k minimum), plus annual pension (say, £12k). After the 5 years he would have signed on for as PA, he is £35k better off on payments from the RAF alone, not to mention the fact that he is probably earning a damn sight more with his new job. And all this, before the inverse x-factor and quality of life /stability factors have been taken into account.
I understand that the majority of the FRI was targeted at prventing people from leaving at their option points. This FRI may have done that with some success. But as far as I can see, the PA system will do nothing but push away those so-called "non-career" officers' who may have gone Spec Aircrew on the old system.
If I have missed a trick here, I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, that is all.
My huge misgiving is our NCO aircrew being shafted yet again. Let's not beat about the bush, there are no complex questions or finer points to ponder here: It is sh*t!
Yes, I know that the recently announced packages are for retention, and have been targeted at the identified problem areas. But their application is nothing but short sightedness. Anything which is so divisive and demoralising after so many previously broken promises to the NCO cadre is only going to (sorry, already has, from what I have seen): a) destroy morale in the short to medium term, and b) precipitate the requirement for a FRI for NCO aircrew when they all start to leave in disgust.
Increasing pay for professional aircrew across the board may not have been the cheapest solution, but you really cannot afford to buy your metaphorical cheap shoes when your feet are already sore. You guys who conjured up this magic trick... think again, and fast.
Someone help me out here...
Maybe I have misread or simply missed some of the details, but I have a couple of little niggling doubts about this package, and one huge misgiving.
First, if the goalposts on the "5 years to 38 for £30k (£18k)" package can be moved every year to account for market forces, then anyone signing up to the deal will effectively be speculating on the future employment market. Are they saying that in a couple of years' time, if all things are looking good (five years into the crystal ball of manning level prediction), then the FRI will be reduced?
Example: 2005 - FRI reduced to £10k at age 33, as period 2005-2010 is looking fine for aircrew. Result: no-one bothers to sign up for their £6k after tax for 5 years' commitment.... The following year, PMA realise (god forbid) that their estimates weren't correct, and they increase the FRI to £50k. Anyone who was eligible in '05 for £10k, will now be eligible for £40, pro-rata.
Stand-by for the pendulum effect....
Second: How exactly is the PA system giong to induce spec-aircrew types to stay? Unless, again, I have missed the point (very likely, as I am currently living in a tent by a runway and flying my @rse off...), then the "retention incentive" is again offering less than the pension and gratuity at IPP? Unless the pay rate is vastly different (in which case, why the £50k bung for five years), then here is Flt Lt Stay vs First Officer pi$$ off to BA at their 38 pt/IPP:
Flt Lt Stay: Gives up his right to a pension on PVR from Spec Aircrew (PA), gets £50k for extra five years' contract, on new terms of employment. Effectively will never get a pension until retirement on accepting the PA terms, therefor is closing all the financially viable or reasonable doors between age 38 and retirement on careers outside of the RAF.
FO pi$$ off to BA: Receives gratuity (say, £25k minimum), plus annual pension (say, £12k). After the 5 years he would have signed on for as PA, he is £35k better off on payments from the RAF alone, not to mention the fact that he is probably earning a damn sight more with his new job. And all this, before the inverse x-factor and quality of life /stability factors have been taken into account.
I understand that the majority of the FRI was targeted at prventing people from leaving at their option points. This FRI may have done that with some success. But as far as I can see, the PA system will do nothing but push away those so-called "non-career" officers' who may have gone Spec Aircrew on the old system.
If I have missed a trick here, I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, that is all.
My huge misgiving is our NCO aircrew being shafted yet again. Let's not beat about the bush, there are no complex questions or finer points to ponder here: It is sh*t!
Yes, I know that the recently announced packages are for retention, and have been targeted at the identified problem areas. But their application is nothing but short sightedness. Anything which is so divisive and demoralising after so many previously broken promises to the NCO cadre is only going to (sorry, already has, from what I have seen): a) destroy morale in the short to medium term, and b) precipitate the requirement for a FRI for NCO aircrew when they all start to leave in disgust.
Increasing pay for professional aircrew across the board may not have been the cheapest solution, but you really cannot afford to buy your metaphorical cheap shoes when your feet are already sore. You guys who conjured up this magic trick... think again, and fast.
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Another disgusted member of the SNCO aircrew cadre. Retention is not a problem if you can replace those leaving with new blood. Unfortunately, this seems to have been lost on those creating policy. Short sightedness has been blind to the mass recruiting that took place in the early/mid 80's, leaving an awful lot of Airman Aircrew due 22 yr options by 2008. No retention problem now, but it really is the calm before the storm.
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Chaps
Lets not get too wrapped up in the "what if?'s". If the FRI had been as damp as squid as last year we would all be whinging like crazy. Whilst I admit that there are some searching questions to ask about the fine print, let's not lose sight of the fact that something positive has been done.
Sure, even if you are entitled, the tax man takes a chunk - that's life. At least the FRI are not loans that have to be repaid when you get your gratuity, which was one option considered. It may only be £32 after tax - but it's all yours!
The scheme was never designed to compete on an equitable basis with the civvie sector. Those, like Ghostflyer, who made a 'quality of life' choice will probably go anyway.
Those who are determined to pursue careers, will stay anyway. What they are targeting are those who are sitting on the fence. If nothing else these measures have shown that they are willing to try and keep us.
Tourist - I sympathise that you are not getting any dosh now but, be realistic. Where do they draw the line? 33, 28, 25, "you've just wiped your nose after leaving IOT, here's some dosh!!" ?? Be serious!
The aim of the package is to draw those people through from 32/33 who have considered taking their options and going elsewhere. You will hopefully benefit in a few years time (barring the pendulum effect!)
The second FRI is to inspire others to remain at the pension point. These are targeted for the specific reason of retaining experienced aircrew - not simply to reward them.
Capt Widebody - I am not sure that I understand completely the fine detail about the pension for Professional Aviators who PVR. I believe that you have to do a minimum of 5 years under the new scheme to benefit from the new pension rates. (Same as if you take the money). However, I don't think it could be possible after that to deny you a pension on new rates if you PVR. Aren't Spec Aircrew on a similar scheme now, in that you can only leave on a year's PVR notice?
On the positve side, as PA, you are removing the whole issue of pensionable flying pay. A spec aircew mate who crosses over will be on the same wage as he is now - only on the new scheme the entire amount would be pensionable on retirement.
Further, he doesn't have to mark time, as in the Pay 2000 scheme, and goes up an increment each year. If he stays into 55 he will be on the equivalent of a Gp Capt's pension! Doesn't sound too bad to me if that's what you want. Most Spec Aircrew are in for the duration and chose that avenue because they want to stay flying, not have a huge amount of responsibility and have reasonable stability.
It's the career Wg Cdr's who will need to look carefully at their position. If they are not going to get Gp Capt their Flying pay still counts for squat for their pensions! (And nobody please mention AVCs!!)
Rambled on a bit longer than I anticipated - sorry! The bottom line is -
These measures , I feel, have been fairly well targeted (Sorry - not including the Airman Aircrew!). At least an attempt has been made to keep experienced aviators in the Service - for most of us, that is half the battle!
[By the way, I missed out on the big payout by a few weeks - life's a bitch!] <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Lets not get too wrapped up in the "what if?'s". If the FRI had been as damp as squid as last year we would all be whinging like crazy. Whilst I admit that there are some searching questions to ask about the fine print, let's not lose sight of the fact that something positive has been done.
Sure, even if you are entitled, the tax man takes a chunk - that's life. At least the FRI are not loans that have to be repaid when you get your gratuity, which was one option considered. It may only be £32 after tax - but it's all yours!
The scheme was never designed to compete on an equitable basis with the civvie sector. Those, like Ghostflyer, who made a 'quality of life' choice will probably go anyway.
Those who are determined to pursue careers, will stay anyway. What they are targeting are those who are sitting on the fence. If nothing else these measures have shown that they are willing to try and keep us.
Tourist - I sympathise that you are not getting any dosh now but, be realistic. Where do they draw the line? 33, 28, 25, "you've just wiped your nose after leaving IOT, here's some dosh!!" ?? Be serious!
The aim of the package is to draw those people through from 32/33 who have considered taking their options and going elsewhere. You will hopefully benefit in a few years time (barring the pendulum effect!)
The second FRI is to inspire others to remain at the pension point. These are targeted for the specific reason of retaining experienced aircrew - not simply to reward them.
Capt Widebody - I am not sure that I understand completely the fine detail about the pension for Professional Aviators who PVR. I believe that you have to do a minimum of 5 years under the new scheme to benefit from the new pension rates. (Same as if you take the money). However, I don't think it could be possible after that to deny you a pension on new rates if you PVR. Aren't Spec Aircrew on a similar scheme now, in that you can only leave on a year's PVR notice?
On the positve side, as PA, you are removing the whole issue of pensionable flying pay. A spec aircew mate who crosses over will be on the same wage as he is now - only on the new scheme the entire amount would be pensionable on retirement.
Further, he doesn't have to mark time, as in the Pay 2000 scheme, and goes up an increment each year. If he stays into 55 he will be on the equivalent of a Gp Capt's pension! Doesn't sound too bad to me if that's what you want. Most Spec Aircrew are in for the duration and chose that avenue because they want to stay flying, not have a huge amount of responsibility and have reasonable stability.
It's the career Wg Cdr's who will need to look carefully at their position. If they are not going to get Gp Capt their Flying pay still counts for squat for their pensions! (And nobody please mention AVCs!!)
Rambled on a bit longer than I anticipated - sorry! The bottom line is -
These measures , I feel, have been fairly well targeted (Sorry - not including the Airman Aircrew!). At least an attempt has been made to keep experienced aviators in the Service - for most of us, that is half the battle!
[By the way, I missed out on the big payout by a few weeks - life's a bitch!] <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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Just want to some sums here and answer a hypohetical question:
take the non-Professional Pilot lot (Staff Line)
recieve 18K now for 5 yrs & then 30K for a further 5 yrs = £48 K split between the 120 months = a net gain of 400 per month (£4800 per year).
Now take into account that you do 6 yrs out of flying related post & lose your flying pay at about £6600 per year (£29 per day) (all sums post tax at 40%); indicates to me that the retention intiative is leaving us staff wollers potentially out of pocket by £1800 per year net.
Going stay & become poorer or leave to command your own destiny?
just a thought - put me straight if I am completely barking up the wrong tree.
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: How Low...? ]</p>
take the non-Professional Pilot lot (Staff Line)
recieve 18K now for 5 yrs & then 30K for a further 5 yrs = £48 K split between the 120 months = a net gain of 400 per month (£4800 per year).
Now take into account that you do 6 yrs out of flying related post & lose your flying pay at about £6600 per year (£29 per day) (all sums post tax at 40%); indicates to me that the retention intiative is leaving us staff wollers potentially out of pocket by £1800 per year net.
Going stay & become poorer or leave to command your own destiny?
just a thought - put me straight if I am completely barking up the wrong tree.
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: How Low...? ]</p>
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"The scheme will run for 5 yrs"
The question was asked earlier in this string by one who shall remain nameless, "If I reach the 5 yr to go point next year does that mean I get the cash?"
Yes, you do...and what a waste of money that will be. I despair of some you lot, I really do.
The question was asked earlier in this string by one who shall remain nameless, "If I reach the 5 yr to go point next year does that mean I get the cash?"
Yes, you do...and what a waste of money that will be. I despair of some you lot, I really do.
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HL
Staff Wallers (as you put it) will not be out of pocket. How many non-flying related staff jobs do you know? Not many. Anyway Innsworth will ensure you are never more than 3 years away from a flying related post. Also read the small print - exceptions can be made, like excluding those at staff college and every other "this is in the interests of the service" post. Trust me, those in the career stream will not fall foul and those on the pa scheme are 100% eligible for flying related staff jobs. Look before you leap into pa is my suggestion.
Personally I would rather give it a go and do something useful like 'be in charge'.
How annoyed will you be when studes you train start becoming your Stn Cdr? Think about it. They will not shaft the career stream. PA looks good, but no-one has seen details yet, and you could get very frustrated very quickly.
I suggest you go pa - more decent jobs for me.
Staff Wallers (as you put it) will not be out of pocket. How many non-flying related staff jobs do you know? Not many. Anyway Innsworth will ensure you are never more than 3 years away from a flying related post. Also read the small print - exceptions can be made, like excluding those at staff college and every other "this is in the interests of the service" post. Trust me, those in the career stream will not fall foul and those on the pa scheme are 100% eligible for flying related staff jobs. Look before you leap into pa is my suggestion.
Personally I would rather give it a go and do something useful like 'be in charge'.
How annoyed will you be when studes you train start becoming your Stn Cdr? Think about it. They will not shaft the career stream. PA looks good, but no-one has seen details yet, and you could get very frustrated very quickly.
I suggest you go pa - more decent jobs for me.
DP Harvey,
Devastated to read that you think I am unworthy of the FRI. In my defence, my opening line did start "Another stupid question....".
Still, at least you didn't come across as a pompous @rse. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Devastated to read that you think I am unworthy of the FRI. In my defence, my opening line did start "Another stupid question....".
Still, at least you didn't come across as a pompous @rse. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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Yet another stupid question:
If at 38 I take 50k taxed - go PA for my 5 years return of service - does that mean I can leave at 43 with a increased tax free lump sum and an increased pension based on new PA rates? - or am I signed up till 55 and would have to PVR in order to realise a pension and lump sum?
For what its worth I reckon it's a decent stab at solving the problems, except for the short sighted attitude towards the NCO guys - the PA deal does sound interesting to a grey haired old git like me who has been whinging for years about ******s getting promoted and getting bigger pensions, but I wait for the detail.
]
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: greyhairedweazel ]
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: greyhairedweazel ]</p>
If at 38 I take 50k taxed - go PA for my 5 years return of service - does that mean I can leave at 43 with a increased tax free lump sum and an increased pension based on new PA rates? - or am I signed up till 55 and would have to PVR in order to realise a pension and lump sum?
For what its worth I reckon it's a decent stab at solving the problems, except for the short sighted attitude towards the NCO guys - the PA deal does sound interesting to a grey haired old git like me who has been whinging for years about ******s getting promoted and getting bigger pensions, but I wait for the detail.
]
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: greyhairedweazel ]
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: greyhairedweazel ]</p>
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Glad all the aircrew are happy with the measures - obviously the service needs to benefit from people it has already trained up to a high standard.. .I hope I can make it into the system before '03 when all the 'baby' pilots and navs won't receive flying pay any more.
Now with these measures in force maybe the RAF has found a way to silence all of its pay critics (current aircrew take note....)
Now with these measures in force maybe the RAF has found a way to silence all of its pay critics (current aircrew take note....)
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AG - Nice One!! (Again) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
You are definitely a good wind-up merchant, or very unique indeed. No, we'll settle for excellent wind-up merchant, as in my good nature, I cannot fathom that anyone could be such a tw@t.
Not a bite, AG - just posted to stop others snapping at your bait.
I shall say a prayer for all admin staff in the RAF (and everyone else for that matter), that your last comment wasn't for real. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
You are definitely a good wind-up merchant, or very unique indeed. No, we'll settle for excellent wind-up merchant, as in my good nature, I cannot fathom that anyone could be such a tw@t.
Not a bite, AG - just posted to stop others snapping at your bait.
I shall say a prayer for all admin staff in the RAF (and everyone else for that matter), that your last comment wasn't for real. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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It looks to me that AG is trying to become aircrew (hoping he does it before 03 so flying pay is still there!). Lets hope he doesn't come across the QFIs and QNIs who read these threads!!
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My guess is that AG is someone(s) (maybe it takes more than one to think bait of this quality up) who is having a right laugh angling on this forum <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .
At least we've all been having a laugh at it .
At least we've all been having a laugh at it
.
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Weasel
If you think you could do 5 years and then leave, think again. You will have to sign on until 55, as now, and PVR if you want to jump ship once you've qualified for the increased pension.
Al
If you think you could do 5 years and then leave, think again. You will have to sign on until 55, as now, and PVR if you want to jump ship once you've qualified for the increased pension.
Al
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Does this mean that since I have signed on for spec aircrew I can now withdraw my intentions because they have now changed the terms of Service. Do you now not get your pension if you PVR after 38 until you reach 55. I was led to believe by the pension people that if you PVR as spec aircrew you get all that was due as if you had left at 38. However, to thank you for your past years they lop 10% off the pension. This could be illegal just as the drop in flying pay for the youngsters. I would welcome any information on this matter --- cos it is gonna affect me!