Chinook - Still Hitting Back 2
Sven, it's an interesting point - that the Lordships may be looking at.
As I understand it, MRAF Craig is still a serving RAF Officer so this does bring up many constitutional issues. The letter to the Lords came from ACMs Graydon and Johns - I'm not sure if they hold the rank of MRAF - anyone help out?
As I understand it, MRAF Craig is still a serving RAF Officer so this does bring up many constitutional issues. The letter to the Lords came from ACMs Graydon and Johns - I'm not sure if they hold the rank of MRAF - anyone help out?
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On JN's question, I understand that the 5 star rank (MRAF, FM, AotF) are not awarded any more- CDS used to get it, but it looked a bit daft when the US Joint Chiefs Chmn was a 4 star.
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MRAF do not retire. They go onto half pay.
Graydon retired as MRAF (I think) but Johns retired as ACM (he got there after they changed the 5 star rules).
5 star is now a war only rank.
Feel free to correct me if I am I am wrong.
Graydon retired as MRAF (I think) but Johns retired as ACM (he got there after they changed the 5 star rules).
5 star is now a war only rank.
Feel free to correct me if I am I am wrong.
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Hi Everyone,
just to let you all know that we're not just sitting waiting until their Lordships publish their findings.
I have yet again contacted the 10 Downing Street site webmaster to ask that they link our petition to their e-petition site. As yet, still no response.
Guess I'll have to carry on being irritating!
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
just to let you all know that we're not just sitting waiting until their Lordships publish their findings.
I have yet again contacted the 10 Downing Street site webmaster to ask that they link our petition to their e-petition site. As yet, still no response.
Guess I'll have to carry on being irritating!
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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I think that we all need to calm down a bit. Wratton may be trying to sidestep the Lords enquirey, but we must remember that many of us are approaching this subject from the direction of "Wratton's a t***er." The Lords may well not see it that way.
As to the serviceability of the chinny, Wrotten is trying to argue that regardless of the chinny being s or not the crew f***ed up earlier on. Whilst I don't subscribe to that point of view it is possible that the Lords will.
All I am saying don't count chickens etc. I hope that things will go against the air farce on this one and the records of 2 pilots will be cleared.
I suppose that the biggest problem we have is that one of these di**heads is still working with us and running a large part of the show. I am a helo pilot and I never want that **** on my cab.
While we tend to take the view that this forum 'polices' itself, we do draw the line at hidden foul language. I have deleted one such word so that the nice ladies who read this particular thread should not have to read it.
PPRuNe Pop
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[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Pop ]
As to the serviceability of the chinny, Wrotten is trying to argue that regardless of the chinny being s or not the crew f***ed up earlier on. Whilst I don't subscribe to that point of view it is possible that the Lords will.
All I am saying don't count chickens etc. I hope that things will go against the air farce on this one and the records of 2 pilots will be cleared.
I suppose that the biggest problem we have is that one of these di**heads is still working with us and running a large part of the show. I am a helo pilot and I never want that **** on my cab.
While we tend to take the view that this forum 'polices' itself, we do draw the line at hidden foul language. I have deleted one such word so that the nice ladies who read this particular thread should not have to read it.
PPRuNe Pop
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[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Pop ]
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I think it is pretty unprecedented for two service personnel to go to Parliament, off their own bat, to plead their case in such a way, beyond the call of a Select Committee. Surely this is "out of order"? Hmmmm. 
TLT,
Of course it is "out of order" for Wratten (aided and abetted by Craig, Graydon and Johns) to pull this stunt. Thankfully not many of their lordships could be bothered to turn up and listen to his arrogant ramblings.
And, Messrs Day and Wratten, as I'm sure the contents of this thread are communicated to you even if you don't read it I just wanted to get it back to the top. We will not go away!
Of course it is "out of order" for Wratten (aided and abetted by Craig, Graydon and Johns) to pull this stunt. Thankfully not many of their lordships could be bothered to turn up and listen to his arrogant ramblings.
And, Messrs Day and Wratten, as I'm sure the contents of this thread are communicated to you even if you don't read it I just wanted to get it back to the top. We will not go away!
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I've been following the Chinook saga from a distance for some time and have just read the RAF BoI report as released by the House of Lords inquiry.
What amazes me is the revelation in that report that "There are no formal procedures within the Support Helicopter Force for conducting an IF abort from low level or for climbing from low level flight under VFR to flight under IFR, and these flight profiles are not taught or generally practised." The BoI report recommends, in addition to fitting CVRs and ADRs to Chinooks, that:
"Formal IF climb procedures are developed for the RAF Support Helicopter Force".
What a contrast with the MoD Accident Summary issued in June 1995, which made no mention of that recommendation, and said "A thorough review of training, flying standards and supervision within the RAF SHF has since been carried out; this has not revealed any deficiencies that might have contributed to this accident."
I'm not suggesting that two pilots as experienced as Tapper and Cook were incapable of a low level abort because they hadn't been specifically trained for it, but what the report highlights is that the lack of a formal procedure meant that deciding how to do a low level abort was basically up to units and/or individuals - so there could be a wide range of techniques, with no force-wide guidance on which were the best techniques in which circumstances.
At best, then, these pilots were poorly equipped to deal with the situation they found themselves in. At worst, the RAF's procedures and training failed them.
So, has the BoI's third recommendation been implemented? Is there now a formal LL abort procedure?
What amazes me is the revelation in that report that "There are no formal procedures within the Support Helicopter Force for conducting an IF abort from low level or for climbing from low level flight under VFR to flight under IFR, and these flight profiles are not taught or generally practised." The BoI report recommends, in addition to fitting CVRs and ADRs to Chinooks, that:
"Formal IF climb procedures are developed for the RAF Support Helicopter Force".
What a contrast with the MoD Accident Summary issued in June 1995, which made no mention of that recommendation, and said "A thorough review of training, flying standards and supervision within the RAF SHF has since been carried out; this has not revealed any deficiencies that might have contributed to this accident."
I'm not suggesting that two pilots as experienced as Tapper and Cook were incapable of a low level abort because they hadn't been specifically trained for it, but what the report highlights is that the lack of a formal procedure meant that deciding how to do a low level abort was basically up to units and/or individuals - so there could be a wide range of techniques, with no force-wide guidance on which were the best techniques in which circumstances.
At best, then, these pilots were poorly equipped to deal with the situation they found themselves in. At worst, the RAF's procedures and training failed them.
So, has the BoI's third recommendation been implemented? Is there now a formal LL abort procedure?
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Thanks to everyone still keeping this to the fore.
The eagle eyed among you may have noticed that the uncorrected evidence page on the Parliament web site appears to be missing questions 783 - 856. These refer to evidence given by Witness A (Question 1054 from Lord Hooson).
I have been assured that these questions will be published in their corrected form early in the New Year.
May I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, and also thank you all for your support. I hope that the Tapper and Cook families are given a late Christmas present early in the new year.
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
The eagle eyed among you may have noticed that the uncorrected evidence page on the Parliament web site appears to be missing questions 783 - 856. These refer to evidence given by Witness A (Question 1054 from Lord Hooson).
I have been assured that these questions will be published in their corrected form early in the New Year.
May I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, and also thank you all for your support. I hope that the Tapper and Cook families are given a late Christmas present early in the new year.
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
And season's greetings to you too Brian. Your hard work, tenacity and integrity are an example to all of us who follow this affair.
My Christmas prayers will include one for a long-overdue victory for common sense, and hence justice.
My Christmas prayers will include one for a long-overdue victory for common sense, and hence justice.
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I must be bored! Leafing idly through the pages of the web, I stumbled across this:
<a href="http://www.mod.uk/news/parlment.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mod.uk/news/parlment.htm</a>
By using the ‘search’ facility and typing ‘Chinook’ it listed a whole bunch of relevant stuff. Probably nothing new, but might be a useful link to those who are interested and haven’t found other parliamentary links.
Merry Christmas to Brian and all those who have dedicated many hours of their precious time in the cause of justice.
<a href="http://www.mod.uk/news/parlment.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mod.uk/news/parlment.htm</a>
By using the ‘search’ facility and typing ‘Chinook’ it listed a whole bunch of relevant stuff. Probably nothing new, but might be a useful link to those who are interested and haven’t found other parliamentary links.
Merry Christmas to Brian and all those who have dedicated many hours of their precious time in the cause of justice.
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Just out of idle interest....
Does anyone know who "Johnny" Wratten was going to be employed by on this side of the fence, when he left Airworks?
Call me cynical, but so far, his words, actions and deeds, in trying to make sure the aircrew were crucified, and blame shifted away from the kit,smack of commercial interest
Just a thought.....
Tony
Does anyone know who "Johnny" Wratten was going to be employed by on this side of the fence, when he left Airworks?
Call me cynical, but so far, his words, actions and deeds, in trying to make sure the aircrew were crucified, and blame shifted away from the kit,smack of commercial interest
Just a thought.....
Tony
Until quite recently, Wratten was employed by Rolls Royce at Filton. Other employees were told not to comment on the Chinook accident if they were asked.....
[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
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Still keeping it up!
As an indication of what one thinks of the principal adversary in this saga, simply try typing "Wratten" into the search box in
<www.google.com> and see what comes up.
Highly appropriate when one considers what has transpired as a result of his arrogance!
As an indication of what one thinks of the principal adversary in this saga, simply try typing "Wratten" into the search box in
<www.google.com> and see what comes up.
Highly appropriate when one considers what has transpired as a result of his arrogance!
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Hi everyone,
Happy New Year to one and all.
Thanks for the last posting HectorusRex. Quite put me off my stale turkey sandwich.
I have received a reply from the Downing Street web site with regard me linking the campaign petition to their e-petition site. What they require is for me to provide either verifiable addresses or e-mail addresses. I'm not prepared to do this, so I regret that we will not get the link.
I hope people don't think they were duped into signing the petition as that clearly was not the case. I am more than happy that Downing Street is now aware of the campaign web site. I am, however, absolutely overwhelmed at the continued support that has been given. Thank you again.
Just because we are awaiting the findings of their Lordships doesn't mean that I'm not annoying someone, somewhere!
Updates as and when I get them
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Happy New Year to one and all.
Thanks for the last posting HectorusRex. Quite put me off my stale turkey sandwich.
I have received a reply from the Downing Street web site with regard me linking the campaign petition to their e-petition site. What they require is for me to provide either verifiable addresses or e-mail addresses. I'm not prepared to do this, so I regret that we will not get the link.
I hope people don't think they were duped into signing the petition as that clearly was not the case. I am more than happy that Downing Street is now aware of the campaign web site. I am, however, absolutely overwhelmed at the continued support that has been given. Thank you again.
Just because we are awaiting the findings of their Lordships doesn't mean that I'm not annoying someone, somewhere!
Updates as and when I get them
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Thanks Brian
I've lurked for years and finally made the plunge with that post.Previously I had argued/debated the situation with a predecessor of Wratten's, and John Day's, the late Ken Hayr.
Keep up the good work. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
I've lurked for years and finally made the plunge with that post.Previously I had argued/debated the situation with a predecessor of Wratten's, and John Day's, the late Ken Hayr.
Keep up the good work. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">