VC10 Court Martial?
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VC10 Court Martial?
Can anyone shed some light on some news I heard about a VC10 crew being court martialled over a $14 phone bill. Something about the Chairman of the National Audit Office demanding that the case goes ahead, after the RAF chain of command insisted that there was no case to answer. Please tell me that this is not true! 
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Heard of this incident a while back (if its the same one).
The big cheese(dick) auditing fella was apparently in the queue behind the co-pilot and overheard the debate regarding the phone bill. As far as I'm aware the RAF told him to start looking for work in the airlines!
Its typical the way this outfit forces upon its people duties for which they don't have the proper training/time/qualification, and then hangs them out to dry when they screw up.
The imprest is a royal pain in the ass especially on a big, busy det. Pitfalls lie all over the place yet crews are given little protection against this and personally taken to the cleaners when it goes pear-shaped.
Rant over. What was the question again?
The big cheese(dick) auditing fella was apparently in the queue behind the co-pilot and overheard the debate regarding the phone bill. As far as I'm aware the RAF told him to start looking for work in the airlines!
Its typical the way this outfit forces upon its people duties for which they don't have the proper training/time/qualification, and then hangs them out to dry when they screw up.
The imprest is a royal pain in the ass especially on a big, busy det. Pitfalls lie all over the place yet crews are given little protection against this and personally taken to the cleaners when it goes pear-shaped.
Rant over. What was the question again?
Whilst any individual case may still be sub judice, the Blunt Ones should perhaps note that individuals may soon start refusing to carry large amounts of company cash with them and will pay bills only with a company credit card. Then crew allowances will need to be paid in advance either in cash or to an individual's bank account, leaving only unexpected itinerary changes to be dealt with upon return. Disputed bills will have to be referred directly to OC Accounts Flt. Captains will not sign Flight Sub Imprest paperwork, that again will be referred to OC Accounts Flight.
The archaic system of the co-pilots carrying large bags of swag around the world will have to stop and a much more realistic cashless system devised instead. It's time we moved on from the Dickensian system we have at present! Personally I prefer to use a debit card rather than cash; hence I've got various grubby little rolls of odd currencies stuffed into a beer tankard which I probably won't ever need; it would have been far better were they credited to my bank account in the first place and I'd only picked up nominal amounts of cash!
The archaic system of the co-pilots carrying large bags of swag around the world will have to stop and a much more realistic cashless system devised instead. It's time we moved on from the Dickensian system we have at present! Personally I prefer to use a debit card rather than cash; hence I've got various grubby little rolls of odd currencies stuffed into a beer tankard which I probably won't ever need; it would have been far better were they credited to my bank account in the first place and I'd only picked up nominal amounts of cash!
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Apparently, the Court Martial commences on Monday. I understand it involves a Tristar co-pilot and not a VC10 crew. Personally, I hope that all co-pilots RAF wide refuse to hold imprests with immediate effect!!
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it's the way things have to go, if anything at all happens down route powers that be are all too willing to hang the individuals out to dry; mmm remember reading something about loyalty once but it obviously doesn't matter.
mate at secret wilts base down route in notorious hotel - several thousand blats stolen from imprest lodged in hotel safe week before so matey locks imprest in box in locked suitcase. suitcase broken into , money half inched, mate hung out to dry.
quick question - how much formal training has any other capt / co received in conducting an imprest properly. i had a half hour sit down which concentrated on where most people fek up. considering the amount of money usually involved, and that several imprests may be underway at any given time, the powers that be owe a duty of care to the imprest holder that they should be properly trained for the task. the effects of the CM will undoubtedly alter the way imprests are conducted in future.
mate at secret wilts base down route in notorious hotel - several thousand blats stolen from imprest lodged in hotel safe week before so matey locks imprest in box in locked suitcase. suitcase broken into , money half inched, mate hung out to dry.
quick question - how much formal training has any other capt / co received in conducting an imprest properly. i had a half hour sit down which concentrated on where most people fek up. considering the amount of money usually involved, and that several imprests may be underway at any given time, the powers that be owe a duty of care to the imprest holder that they should be properly trained for the task. the effects of the CM will undoubtedly alter the way imprests are conducted in future.
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Please tell me this isn't happening.....and over a phone bill? "Formal" training isn't the issue here, although I hope it's used as a defence, but more the trust that is put in the FSI holders. As BEagle alluded to, if this is the way of things to come, then individual claims must be the only way forward. The hotel room only can be paid by one individual, on an approved card. Everything else - calls to ATFOC, handlers, caterers etc - will have to be justified by the individual making the claim on return to home station.
I know nothing of this case, but as a former FSI holder, I hope that justice will be done. And when I come back, I will never again sign the Aircraft Captain's declaration on the Imprest paperwork.
I know nothing of this case, but as a former FSI holder, I hope that justice will be done. And when I come back, I will never again sign the Aircraft Captain's declaration on the Imprest paperwork.
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I was just thinking how lucky uncle Peter was to have a whole half an hour briefing on imprests. I remember all too many occasions when you add it all up and a sinking feeling comes over you as you realise things do not balance and it's always wrong against you. If you add the uncomfortable impression that everbody is aware your carrying a large amount of instantly negotiable currency (the staff at reception know only too well whats in the envelope) then it surely is a flight safety hazard if nothing else. Perhaps the fact that the services can no longer hide behind personal liabilities exemption might be worth investigating here.
At least when I made a c***-*p as co pilot with imprest, all I got was banned from holding imprests. Unfortunately, this was not carried forward to next tour. However, soon found other lowly life form on crew to hold said instant court martial bag - my own co pilot. And this was nearly 30 years ago. I would love to have seen the system change for the better, but it seems the bean counters have more clout than the cannon fodder!
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The company credit cards are useless because the anti-fraud measures kick in if large amounts are paid too frequently or in different areas too quickly. Just perfect for a a Fat Albert trying to get to and from Red Flag! The MOD refused to have the anti-fraud taken off and stand any losses. The upshot - Lyneham crews will be taking large denomination notes as a back up to pay hotel bills when the card's refused. Way to go RAF...
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To repeat, and just to keep the balance, I believe (not sure) that the RAF chain of command insisted that there was no case to answer (as far as the AOC) but the Civil Serpent demanded that proceedings go ahead. If true, then I do not think that the RAF should take the heat over this one. Somebody needs to present the final Court Martial bill (ignoring the adverse impact upon morale)to this dangerous fool and ask him exactly where the Value For Money was. Presumably, there will have been a number of (club class?) trips to the hotel (Nairobi?) to gather evidence. Way to go. I am still waiting for someone to tell me that I have got it all wrong and that no-one would waste so much money when we are all trying to tighten our belts. Someone...please!?
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Why doesn't someone in the know give the Sun (or maybe something a bit more authoratitive) a ring and inform them of how much of the public's money is being wasted on this case ?
The Chairman of the NAO may then be called to justify his actions.It's nearly as good as not giving desert combat boots to those going to the desert in Oman
[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: gijoe ]
The Chairman of the NAO may then be called to justify his actions.It's nearly as good as not giving desert combat boots to those going to the desert in Oman
[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: gijoe ]
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Flash-Heart
Nobody on this thread has said anything that would cause any form of deformation of character to the individual concerned. Everybody on the thread is in fact supporting him or her and the more people that read the fact the the bean counter is a W*****, the better.
Nobody on this thread has said anything that would cause any form of deformation of character to the individual concerned. Everybody on the thread is in fact supporting him or her and the more people that read the fact the the bean counter is a W*****, the better.
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So just who is running this Air Farce?
The real Court Martial should be to lynch the powers-that-be that auth'd and 18 month P&SS inquiry sending several people to sunny NBO to investigate an $18 bill !! It's a situation that just about any of us could find ourselves in and it's good to see the Investors In People are looking after their own. Just hope no more examples need to be made before this ridiculous system is changed
Uncle G
The real Court Martial should be to lynch the powers-that-be that auth'd and 18 month P&SS inquiry sending several people to sunny NBO to investigate an $18 bill !! It's a situation that just about any of us could find ourselves in and it's good to see the Investors In People are looking after their own. Just hope no more examples need to be made before this ridiculous system is changed
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I know and have had the pleasure of going through flying training and working with the individual concerned. Without commenting on the facts of this case, which BEags rightly points out, would not really be appropriate, I would like to add my vote of support to him in this shambolic trial which is a bigger misuse of public funds than any imprest officer could ever hope to achieve.
I sincerely hope that if anything other than a full acquittal comes of this, that the MOD has in place an alternative system by which to administer pay and allowances whilst down-route, detached or deployed. This kind of pathetic witch-hunt should not be allowed to go on. Are the hierarchy really casting doubts on the integrity and trustworthyness of the same individuals responsible for the safe operation of millions of pounds of military hardware, and the safety of many lives? Well, I guess they are now.
The message to all who hold imprests is clear from this: don't worry about cancelling the sortie, letting the team down, missing your slot times or all the knock-on problems this may cause; just get the financial paperwork right. Remember the priorities: paperwork - accountability - flight safety - mission.
I am lucky to have had the supports of an extremely good, flexible and understanding accounts flight, so I choose the following words carefully: some of you bean counters out there have obviously no concept of the "Mission Bubble"? If you fall into this category, then I suggest you contact your SFSO (once you've found out who he is). He can show you the reports about people who have thrown aircraft away, or crashed and died due in part to external stressors such as the pressures of mixing extraneous paperwork with the often difficult flying task. If you still don't have any empathy for the operators, then get some help from the shrinks.
Rant Over.
Now then, for the two of you who sent out the unnoficial communication, it was widely received, thanks. I have left you both messages. You have my support and pledge for £25, should it be required. I really hope it doesn't come to this!
I sincerely hope that if anything other than a full acquittal comes of this, that the MOD has in place an alternative system by which to administer pay and allowances whilst down-route, detached or deployed. This kind of pathetic witch-hunt should not be allowed to go on. Are the hierarchy really casting doubts on the integrity and trustworthyness of the same individuals responsible for the safe operation of millions of pounds of military hardware, and the safety of many lives? Well, I guess they are now.
The message to all who hold imprests is clear from this: don't worry about cancelling the sortie, letting the team down, missing your slot times or all the knock-on problems this may cause; just get the financial paperwork right. Remember the priorities: paperwork - accountability - flight safety - mission.
I am lucky to have had the supports of an extremely good, flexible and understanding accounts flight, so I choose the following words carefully: some of you bean counters out there have obviously no concept of the "Mission Bubble"? If you fall into this category, then I suggest you contact your SFSO (once you've found out who he is). He can show you the reports about people who have thrown aircraft away, or crashed and died due in part to external stressors such as the pressures of mixing extraneous paperwork with the often difficult flying task. If you still don't have any empathy for the operators, then get some help from the shrinks.
Rant Over.
Now then, for the two of you who sent out the unnoficial communication, it was widely received, thanks. I have left you both messages. You have my support and pledge for £25, should it be required. I really hope it doesn't come to this!
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CWB,
My original question was genuine, namely 'Is this really true - surely not!' I am deeply disappointed that it appears so.
Lord Flash,
Given the above, I would certainly not wish to compromize the proceedings and agree that this thread should lie low. I have considered deleting it in toto but, in the first instance, hope that the proper restraint can be exercised. Needless to say, I am very interested to see the outcome. I hope that justice is served - please keep us apprised.
Parting shot, and acutely aware that I do not have all the facts of the case but, on the face of it at least, this type of incidence saddens me deeply. I love my profession and Service - the damage done to morale and trust by incidents like this are out of all proportion to the (alleged) event.
In the meantime, I trust that honest endeavour will be recognized and that the (alleged) poisonous instigator is called to account!
Beam me up!
My original question was genuine, namely 'Is this really true - surely not!' I am deeply disappointed that it appears so.
Lord Flash,
Given the above, I would certainly not wish to compromize the proceedings and agree that this thread should lie low. I have considered deleting it in toto but, in the first instance, hope that the proper restraint can be exercised. Needless to say, I am very interested to see the outcome. I hope that justice is served - please keep us apprised.
Parting shot, and acutely aware that I do not have all the facts of the case but, on the face of it at least, this type of incidence saddens me deeply. I love my profession and Service - the damage done to morale and trust by incidents like this are out of all proportion to the (alleged) event.
In the meantime, I trust that honest endeavour will be recognized and that the (alleged) poisonous instigator is called to account!
Beam me up!
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I think that we're finally realising that the aircrew aren't important in the RAF any more.
I know I'm probably being very naive, but isn't everybody supposed to support the AIRcrew in the Royal AIR Force?
Why don't accounts flight open when it's convenient for US?
If Admin Wg get behind in the paperclip counting, why don't they come in at the weekend (and meet some AIRcrew) instead of shutting the whole place down.
If cocking an imprest up is so serious, why don't the f***ing accounts do it?
Good luck to the individual involved. Anyone know the name of the squealer? Go on out him.
Rant off.
Reichman.
I know I'm probably being very naive, but isn't everybody supposed to support the AIRcrew in the Royal AIR Force?
Why don't accounts flight open when it's convenient for US?
If Admin Wg get behind in the paperclip counting, why don't they come in at the weekend (and meet some AIRcrew) instead of shutting the whole place down.
If cocking an imprest up is so serious, why don't the f***ing accounts do it?
Good luck to the individual involved. Anyone know the name of the squealer? Go on out him.
Rant off.
Reichman.