UK RAF launches Afghan work-up with Merlin helicopters
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In fact, and accepting they are different theatres with different challenges, the Merlin actually ended up as a better fit for MND(SE) than the Chinook - enough internal fuel to get to the very edges of the AOR and hang about a while (up to an hour more than a CH47), a significantly more comfortable and slightly faster ride (as good for CASEVACs as it is for VIPs, and actually taking troops a long way in comfort means they get there in better shape). Of course, there are areas where the CH47 wins, but actually when we looked at what the task actually was and what had been done there were only one or two occasions in the whole time since TELIC1 that it was really necessary to lift a vary big load.
Jacko,
thanks for making me chuckle after a crap couple of days. Unfortunately I am tired and just about to go on my hols with the little diplomats, but you seem to have the thread summed up.
Nothing to see here, moving along.
thanks for making me chuckle after a crap couple of days. Unfortunately I am tired and just about to go on my hols with the little diplomats, but you seem to have the thread summed up.
Nothing to see here, moving along.
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c4aero
There is no point in harping on about the 1995 decision. Ye Gods, that was 14 years ago! The facts have never been swept under the carpet. The RAF and its customers needed lift; the Op Reqt indicated Chinook as best value for money. All correct. The Government decided that AgustaWestland needed to be safeguarded, arguing as successive governments have done also, that maintaining a rotary manufacturing base in country is vital for national security. I would add that keeping people in jobs in the UK itself saves lives, because if you don't have industry you don't have money to spend on equipment, so people die. Buying off the shelf is not always the answer.
But the real point, surely, is that Merlin has surprised a lot of critics, has complementary capabilities to the admirable Chinook, and for some missions is the platform of choice. Let's all wish the crews and the supporting staff well in Theatre.
Finally, I find despicable some of the intemparate language used by people hiding behind nicknames. Not what I'm used to hearing from aviation afficianados. Can we all grow up, please?
But the real point, surely, is that Merlin has surprised a lot of critics, has complementary capabilities to the admirable Chinook, and for some missions is the platform of choice. Let's all wish the crews and the supporting staff well in Theatre.
Finally, I find despicable some of the intemparate language used by people hiding behind nicknames. Not what I'm used to hearing from aviation afficianados. Can we all grow up, please?
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Occasional Aviator.
Here goes - I am sorry to disagree with you.
Endurance: The Chinnies very big load you mentioned could of course be fuel, which means that her endurance is greatly enhanced, whilst still maintaining a massive internal payload.
Delivering the Troops in Better Shape: WTF??? That is just made up bollox.
VIP: Great! A bit of a waste of cash though and what have the VIPs been traveling in for the last X years?
We are stuck with the poor purchasing decisions of our forefathers. The extra lift will be gratefully received in Afg, but to suggest that buying the Merlin instead of more CH is just more bollox.
Holding the pin; waiting for the bang.....
Here goes - I am sorry to disagree with you.
Endurance: The Chinnies very big load you mentioned could of course be fuel, which means that her endurance is greatly enhanced, whilst still maintaining a massive internal payload.
Delivering the Troops in Better Shape: WTF??? That is just made up bollox.
VIP: Great! A bit of a waste of cash though and what have the VIPs been traveling in for the last X years?
We are stuck with the poor purchasing decisions of our forefathers. The extra lift will be gratefully received in Afg, but to suggest that buying the Merlin instead of more CH is just more bollox.
Holding the pin; waiting for the bang.....
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Spin
We've already bought them.
It may also be a shock to the system, but King George VI popped his clogs as well! Terrible, but we've got a new Queen!
For any updates on the last 50 yrs, just PM me, I've got Google.
Pip pip
SP
We've already bought them.
It may also be a shock to the system, but King George VI popped his clogs as well! Terrible, but we've got a new Queen!
For any updates on the last 50 yrs, just PM me, I've got Google.
Pip pip
SP
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I don't post here much but here goes!!!
I agree that the Chinook is a hugely capable aircraft (10 tons etc etc) and political decisions were made to buy the Merlin and not other types, however that doesn't change the facts as they are now and is largely irrelevant as the clock cannot be rolled back.
We have differing types for a range of jobs, yes Chinook can do most but it also has its drawbacks (wait for spindrier to pick himself up of the floor).
Merlin can do many but not all is a given however the point of fatigue whilst flying is very real and relevant and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as 'bollox', this has come from the troops themselves so who are we to argue!
Another drawback of the Chinook is that it can be heard long before arrival whereas other types have a much reduced noise signature which may be of huge advantage in particular circumstances, again this has been commentated favourably on directly by the users.
The advantage of modern design, avionics and materials at times is offset by the complexity and engineering support however the Merlin brings a lot to the party (sigh, yes I know still not as much as the all revered nook!) and hopefully will complement with assets already in place.
Note- I said complement not compete which some seem to confuse.
SH and the differing types are not perfect and we should just play to each others strengths and minimise the weaknesses.
I agree that the Chinook is a hugely capable aircraft (10 tons etc etc) and political decisions were made to buy the Merlin and not other types, however that doesn't change the facts as they are now and is largely irrelevant as the clock cannot be rolled back.
We have differing types for a range of jobs, yes Chinook can do most but it also has its drawbacks (wait for spindrier to pick himself up of the floor).
Merlin can do many but not all is a given however the point of fatigue whilst flying is very real and relevant and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as 'bollox', this has come from the troops themselves so who are we to argue!
Another drawback of the Chinook is that it can be heard long before arrival whereas other types have a much reduced noise signature which may be of huge advantage in particular circumstances, again this has been commentated favourably on directly by the users.
The advantage of modern design, avionics and materials at times is offset by the complexity and engineering support however the Merlin brings a lot to the party (sigh, yes I know still not as much as the all revered nook!) and hopefully will complement with assets already in place.
Note- I said complement not compete which some seem to confuse.
SH and the differing types are not perfect and we should just play to each others strengths and minimise the weaknesses.
Last edited by FireAxe; 29th Aug 2009 at 02:19.
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Rotor blades and such
Sorry to butt in , just a question from a complete layman when it comes to Helicopters.
Does the Chinook also have the same system like I believe the Merlin has which prevents rotorwash or at least reduces it to an acceptable limit ?
Seems like a usefull thing to have in dusty areas like Afghanistan (and also Iraq I guess).
I know the US' Blackhawks don't use such rotorblades but I think they have some electronic visualization system which actually also can deal with the rotorwash problem.
Any answer would be appreciated, thx in advance.
Does the Chinook also have the same system like I believe the Merlin has which prevents rotorwash or at least reduces it to an acceptable limit ?
Seems like a usefull thing to have in dusty areas like Afghanistan (and also Iraq I guess).
I know the US' Blackhawks don't use such rotorblades but I think they have some electronic visualization system which actually also can deal with the rotorwash problem.
Any answer would be appreciated, thx in advance.
The Merlin's rotor downwash is such that it produces a 'doughnut' with a pretty clear 'hole' in the middle, and this reduces the risk of 'brownout'.
The Chinook does not produce quite the same effect.
The Chinook does not produce quite the same effect.
The Merlin doughnut is a nice marketing ploy, and there are some nice photos to support it. However, at a recent brown-out meeting it was discounted by the crews as having any real impact on the brown-out problem. The Merlin does not have the ideal undercarriage configuration for dust landings, unlike the Sea King, Blackhawk and Chinook (and Wessex!!) where you can plant the tail wheel(s) quite hard in the flare and then level due to the wheel being towards the back of the airframe and the TR being relatively clear. Despite being in Iraq for the past few years the crews have done relatively few dust landings in virgin desert (as the majority of landings were at well-founded sites). This has been recognised and it is one of the reasons why the guys/girls are States-side at the moment getting some practise in. Anybody who knocks the Merlin force for going to the US needs to be put back in their box.
Kbrockman,
Don't believe everything you read in the press. Nobody, to my knowledge, has operationally fielded an electronic visualisation system yet. There are a number of aids - DNVG, FLIR, LLTV and digital flight control systems that can help now and more such as LIDAR, MMR and Synthetic Overlays that are in the experimental phase. The problem is clearing such devices to a high level of safety integrity if you intend to use them to land the cab in reduced visibility.
Fire Axe,
Good points well made. Merlin's achilles heel since ISD has been logistic support and a distinct lack of spares. Over a flat theatre such as Iraq the noise arguement carries some credibility, but not all of the world is a billiard table. My reason for banging on about the '95 decision is that if, and it's a big if, extra money is found for more SH (a chunk of T3 Typhoon money would do the trick....) we need to make the right choice (this time) and buy CH47F not Merlin - though we should buy another 6 Mk3a Merlins to build some resilience into that "mini-fleet".
Kbrockman,
Don't believe everything you read in the press. Nobody, to my knowledge, has operationally fielded an electronic visualisation system yet. There are a number of aids - DNVG, FLIR, LLTV and digital flight control systems that can help now and more such as LIDAR, MMR and Synthetic Overlays that are in the experimental phase. The problem is clearing such devices to a high level of safety integrity if you intend to use them to land the cab in reduced visibility.
Fire Axe,
Good points well made. Merlin's achilles heel since ISD has been logistic support and a distinct lack of spares. Over a flat theatre such as Iraq the noise arguement carries some credibility, but not all of the world is a billiard table. My reason for banging on about the '95 decision is that if, and it's a big if, extra money is found for more SH (a chunk of T3 Typhoon money would do the trick....) we need to make the right choice (this time) and buy CH47F not Merlin - though we should buy another 6 Mk3a Merlins to build some resilience into that "mini-fleet".
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Speed may be a red herring too as for most, but not all, circumstances the speed of the escort may be the limiting factor...........
I understand the payload may be not practical for readiness roles either.............
I understand the payload may be not practical for readiness roles either.............
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The Merlin's rotor downwash is such that it produces a 'doughnut' with a pretty clear 'hole' in the middle, and this reduces the risk of 'brownout'.
It is unlikely that that doughnut is unique. All single main rotor helicopters should produce about the same downwash image on ground or sea surface.
The magnitude of the downwash is of course proportional to the amount of momentum the helo's rotor system is imparting to the surrounding air mass. Since your mighty Merlin's rotor probably has faster angular velocity than a Chinooks' rotors, the Merlin might actually stir up more dust in some cases.
Similar remarks apply to the noise of helicopters. If you want to try to make a big sales point out of a Merlin being quieter than an H-47 -- and I expect that the Merlin is less than two decibels quieter -- than you shouldn't object if Sikorsky claims that their S-92 is a better choice for combat search and rescue than the Merlot because the S-92 is a bit smaller and therefore somewhat quieter than your wizardly 'elicopter.
( Doing a Google search for photos of helicopters hovering over water, with downwash images/patterns in the picture. Can anyone help with that? )
It is unlikely that that doughnut is unique. All single main rotor helicopters should produce about the same downwash image on ground or sea surface.
The magnitude of the downwash is of course proportional to the amount of momentum the helo's rotor system is imparting to the surrounding air mass. Since your mighty Merlin's rotor probably has faster angular velocity than a Chinooks' rotors, the Merlin might actually stir up more dust in some cases.
Similar remarks apply to the noise of helicopters. If you want to try to make a big sales point out of a Merlin being quieter than an H-47 -- and I expect that the Merlin is less than two decibels quieter -- than you shouldn't object if Sikorsky claims that their S-92 is a better choice for combat search and rescue than the Merlot because the S-92 is a bit smaller and therefore somewhat quieter than your wizardly 'elicopter.
( Doing a Google search for photos of helicopters hovering over water, with downwash images/patterns in the picture. Can anyone help with that? )
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Here's one photo of a Merlin and its downwash pattern at a certain altitude and thrust output. Is that what you call a doughnut pattern? That downwash image is not at all unique to the magical M.
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/merlin05.jpg
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/merlin05.jpg
Re brownout:
See P.9 of AFRL Rotorcraft Brownout Integrated Solution Study
http://www.dodsbir.net/Sitis/view_pd...20Overview.pdf
see also
http://www.vtol.org/vertiflite/brownout.pdf
"If you want to try to make a big sales point out of a Merlin being quieter than an H-47 -- and I expect that the Merlin is less than two decibels quieter -- than you shouldn't object if Sikorsky claims that their S-92 is a better choice for combat search and rescue than the Merlot because the S-92 is a bit smaller and therefore somewhat quieter than your wizardly 'elicopter."
The S-92 is also noisier, in my experience.
Last edited by Jackonicko; 29th Aug 2009 at 22:52.
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crew that was on the merlin overnight at Big Bear fri to sat at the air fest
i am looking to find the 2 crew memeber who where on the merlin overnight fri 28 to sat 29 aug (night before the Big Bear airfest)
would like to talk to them again i am one of the civil air patrol memebers who was talking to them they know who i am i was the older one of us 3
would like to talk to them again i am one of the civil air patrol memebers who was talking to them they know who i am i was the older one of us 3
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Spindrier,
read my post.
I said 'internal fuel - ie without a bob tank. Merlin goes longer and further - oh and can put a bob tank in. CH47 goes further if you really want by putting two bobs in, which Merlin can't do. But then you're not
Not according to the troops I carried. Also you seem to sidestep the point about a smooth ride being good for casevac - the Merlin's pretty damn smooth right up to Vne, so no big decisions about fast n' bumpy versus smooth n' slow. OK so no-one buys a helicopter for VIP, but you're gonna do it.
It was a political buy - get over it. I never suggested buying Merlin instead of CH47.
read my post.
Endurance: The Chinnies very big load you mentioned could of course be fuel, which means that her endurance is greatly enhanced.
still maintaining a massive internal payload.
Delivering the Troops in Better Shape: WTF??? That is just made up bollox.
We are stuck with the poor purchasing decisions of our forefathers. The extra lift will be gratefully received in Afg, but to suggest that buying the Merlin instead of more CH is just more bollox.
I said 'internal fuel - ie without a bob tank. Merlin goes longer and further - oh and can put a bob tank in. CH47 goes further if you really want by putting two bobs in, which Merlin can't do. But then you're not
Not according to the troops I carried. Also you seem to sidestep the point about a smooth ride being good for casevac -
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MGD - will you also lapse into how big an underslung load you can carry too? It really is quite tiresome.
Yes - the Chinook can carry lots. Yes - the Merlin has a steep ramp. The Merlin has a tail rotor (see AP3456) and its dust landing arrival is not as dramatic as a Chinook (from your limited viewings of it), but all of this will be conquered.
Perhaps you might like to consider that whether you like it or not, the Merlin is deploying to theatre and it does not help the customer if people spend their time knocking a capability before it has arrived.
There is a world outside of Odiham you know.
Standing by for the inevitable... will Brandnew be joining in with his in-depth Merlin knowledge too?
Yes - the Chinook can carry lots. Yes - the Merlin has a steep ramp. The Merlin has a tail rotor (see AP3456) and its dust landing arrival is not as dramatic as a Chinook (from your limited viewings of it), but all of this will be conquered.
Perhaps you might like to consider that whether you like it or not, the Merlin is deploying to theatre and it does not help the customer if people spend their time knocking a capability before it has arrived.
There is a world outside of Odiham you know.
Standing by for the inevitable... will Brandnew be joining in with his in-depth Merlin knowledge too?