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Well Fast Pussy, the Jaguar could never be described as a fighter. It flew nicely in Oman with no tanks and AIM L and 2 Aden cannon but was always limited in surface ceiling and outright power to weight ratio.
The Lightning also had "proper calibre" guns. On the Mk2 and 2a we carried two Aden cannons and 2 missiles. We could also replace the missile pack with a gun pack to give 4 Aden cannons!
Your use of the word interceptor may be correct but the Lightning could turn on a sixpence and out-fight all of the competition of the day!
In my book a genuine fighter!
Flack jacket on and now under the bar!!
The Lightning also had "proper calibre" guns. On the Mk2 and 2a we carried two Aden cannons and 2 missiles. We could also replace the missile pack with a gun pack to give 4 Aden cannons!
Your use of the word interceptor may be correct but the Lightning could turn on a sixpence and out-fight all of the competition of the day!
In my book a genuine fighter!
Flack jacket on and now under the bar!!
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Newt
Not picking on the Lightning for the size of its guns - just a comment about those which have subordinated themselves to the whims of the Germans or Italians.
Also, will not comment on the size of your sixpence - size is subjective - but once around your average sixpence and the Lightning was Bingo for home!
The Jaguar might not win the poll - but at least it should be in the fight!
See you under the bar - mine's a saucer of milk!
Not picking on the Lightning for the size of its guns - just a comment about those which have subordinated themselves to the whims of the Germans or Italians.
Also, will not comment on the size of your sixpence - size is subjective - but once around your average sixpence and the Lightning was Bingo for home!
The Jaguar might not win the poll - but at least it should be in the fight!
See you under the bar - mine's a saucer of milk!
Unless it had 'F Mk (whatever)' in its designation, it simply wasn't a fighter. E.g Hunter F Mk 6, Lightning F Mk 2A, Tornado F Mk 3, Phantom FGR Mk 2....
The pussycat didn't, therefore it wasn't! Endex!
Miaow!!
The pussycat didn't, therefore it wasn't! Endex!
Miaow!!
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So - if the aeroplane behind you doesn't have an "F" in it, then it's no threat??
.
Although irrelevant to this debate, the F-117 has an F - and carries exactly which air-to-air weapons? And how many F variants of the Spitfire were there?
The A-4 did reasonably well in Vietnam without an F.
The RAF Harrier did air defence in Belize for many years 'cos no F-jets could operate there. It also did air defence of Ascension Island and the Falklands until the "real" air defenders could get parental approval to participate.
So let's enjoy some lateral thinking and not be pedants who fall out over just one letter!
The Jaguar had some teeth - and in the right hands could be put into a position to use them. I am simply suggesting that it should have been included in the poll for completeness. I would not expect it to win!
I'm going back under the bar!
. Although irrelevant to this debate, the F-117 has an F - and carries exactly which air-to-air weapons? And how many F variants of the Spitfire were there?
The A-4 did reasonably well in Vietnam without an F.
The RAF Harrier did air defence in Belize for many years 'cos no F-jets could operate there. It also did air defence of Ascension Island and the Falklands until the "real" air defenders could get parental approval to participate.
So let's enjoy some lateral thinking and not be pedants who fall out over just one letter!
The Jaguar had some teeth - and in the right hands could be put into a position to use them. I am simply suggesting that it should have been included in the poll for completeness. I would not expect it to win!
I'm going back under the bar!
FP
The funniest thing I ever saw was the JP on a Tornado F3 (with less than 3-400hrs on type) debriefing a Jag Flt Cdr on his BFM skills in the ACMI Cabin as his 2v2 Op Check. He gave the Jags a right good shoeing - 3 sore bottoms to none! All from Neutral set ups - he taught them all about lag BFM that day
Anyway, doesn't the famous Jag song go "they drop bombs and take nice piccies..." can't mention the rest or the PC Police will ban me!
Finally, Jags started out as a trainer but proved too big a handful (heavens knows how many studes we would have killed) - the Hawk eventually won Air Staff Target 362 as a better option. The Anglo-French MOU was originally for 150 2-seat RAF Jags to replace the Gnat and Hunter. This was changed in the 70s to provide a cheap strike attack/tac recce (note. No fighter role!) aircraft for the RAF and 9 Sqn's worth were ordered.
The B Word
The funniest thing I ever saw was the JP on a Tornado F3 (with less than 3-400hrs on type) debriefing a Jag Flt Cdr on his BFM skills in the ACMI Cabin as his 2v2 Op Check. He gave the Jags a right good shoeing - 3 sore bottoms to none! All from Neutral set ups - he taught them all about lag BFM that day
Anyway, doesn't the famous Jag song go "they drop bombs and take nice piccies..." can't mention the rest or the PC Police will ban me!
Finally, Jags started out as a trainer but proved too big a handful (heavens knows how many studes we would have killed) - the Hawk eventually won Air Staff Target 362 as a better option. The Anglo-French MOU was originally for 150 2-seat RAF Jags to replace the Gnat and Hunter. This was changed in the 70s to provide a cheap strike attack/tac recce (note. No fighter role!) aircraft for the RAF and 9 Sqn's worth were ordered.
The B Word
Also, will not comment on the size of your sixpence - size is subjective - but once around your average sixpence and the Lightning was Bingo for home!
The Jaguar might not win the poll - but at least it should be in the fight!
The Jaguar might not win the poll - but at least it should be in the fight!
I once had the pleasure of witnessing a young first-tourist Jag mate dishing out the "two seat loser" banter to a bunch of Tornado mates, telling them how rubbish their engines were (!) and what a brick the Tonka was (!), emboldened no doubt by his squadron buddies laughing away behind him. What he didn't know (but his chuckling mates did) was that one of the Tornado pilots was a former Jag QWI with a couple of thousand hours on type, who eventually grew bored and whispered quietly in the young buck's ear with a withering assessment of the two types' respective performance. Cue sheepish look and retreat back to safety of the Jag pack!
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Thanks to all who have voted so far in our poll. With nearly 3,000 votes now cast, the Hunter still leads but the Lightning has somewhat surprisingly dropped away from second place, overtaken by the Phantom and Tornado - the Phantom in particular having made a sudden surge... Do please vote if you haven't already (or perhaps even if you have) - the poll's open for another 10 days.
Does no-one feel a little sorry for the Vampire? First jet aircraft to make, as wikipedia puts it, an "intentional and planned" landing and take-off on an aircraft carrier...
Does no-one feel a little sorry for the Vampire? First jet aircraft to make, as wikipedia puts it, an "intentional and planned" landing and take-off on an aircraft carrier...
Well the Lightning is still the most long lived in it’s intended role…..so far.
Lightning = 28 years
Phantom (in AD) = 24 years
Tornado F3 = 23 years, so far.
Hunter (F marks) = 15 years
Javelin = 12 years
Lightning = 28 years
Phantom (in AD) = 24 years
Tornado F3 = 23 years, so far.
Hunter (F marks) = 15 years
Javelin = 12 years
Last edited by GeeRam; 28th Aug 2009 at 14:48.
At the moment (2354 on 6 Sep), it seems that they're going to have to announce that the Tornado has been the greatest fighter aircraft. Which may, I suspect from the discussion about that aircraft on these means in the course of the eight or so years I've been a Ppruner, come a surprise to some. Including a number of chaps who've flown it...
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Top Jet
I suppose I'm too late as it's the 8th, but this thread cannot possibly come to a sensible conclusion as it's apples and oranges. All the jets we are talking about have been screwed by politicians. I only flew three of the contenders, the Hunter, Meteor and the Lightning. Thanks to our lords and masters, both political and military, they were all spoiled as warplanes and as usual the boys on the front line had to get the best out of them - which they did.
In my humble opinion the most capable fighter was the Phantom, the prettiest, the Hunter and the most sheer fun, the aloominum toob!!
In my humble opinion the most capable fighter was the Phantom, the prettiest, the Hunter and the most sheer fun, the aloominum toob!!
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Did it ever occur to anyone that virtually all the "fighting" done by RAF aircraft in the last umpty ump years has been done by bombers, rotary and transport?
Just a thought.......
Just a thought.......
