RAF Merlins crews unwilling to go to Afghanistan?
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Reference to the RAF Merlins needing "...modifications, such as new rotor blades, for higher altitudes" in today's BBC article. Does this mean the Mk3/Mk3A will be deploying to the 'Stan with BERP IV?
'No rush' to redeploy helicopters
I/C
'No rush' to redeploy helicopters
I/C
Red On, Green On
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"These are not family cars," said Bob Ainsworth. "There are a number of them that are broken and need repairs."
Still, good to hear that Bob Aintworthit knows how to speak aircraft technical-like.
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Someone rightfully posted a very valid comment, but no one followed up on it.
The useful load of an aircraft is defined as the sum of the crew, the fuel and the payload.
Many aircraft also have a zero fuel weight which also limits the Maximum payload. The Maximum Payload is defined as the maximum take-off weight minus the zero fuel weight.
Some aircraft have a Maximum landing weight.
Helicopters have further limitation such hovering weight in and out of ground effect.
When any extra equipment is added to an aircraft, helicopter, fixed wing or whatever the empty weight increases. Any increase to the empty weight reduces the useful load and the payload. This requires the fuel and/or the payload to be reduced. Such a reduction increases the number of trips that are required, or increases the number of fuel stops, creating more exposure to the dangerous areas.
Wikipedia (List of Coalition aircraft losses in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) lists about 42 coalition helicopters incidents in Afghanistan since 2001. Only 8 of those are confirmed hostile fire cases, and the majority of the rest are brownout cases in take-off or landing incidents. All of the hostile fire cases also occurred either on the ground or at low altitude.
Clearly, installing equipment, armour, DAS or whatever, that forces a helicopter to make more trips, to carry out more landings and to make more fuel stops, puts that helicopter in more danger than if it was less exposed in those vulnerable stages of flight.
During World War Two, there was a discussion between those who favoured large formations which were better protected from German defences, and those who agreed but thought these large formations increased the chances of mid-air collisions. Those that favoured the large formations claimed there would only be one mid-air collision per sortie on average and that this was largely offset by the larger number of aircraft that would be saved from German defences. Experience proved them right. So they willingly accepted the collisions as the lesser of two evils.
So now, helicopter pilots must ask themselves: do you want the armour (and DAS) and have to make two sorties (or an extra fuel stop), or would you rather go without armour (and or DAS) and only make one sortie (or no fuel stop)?
The useful load of an aircraft is defined as the sum of the crew, the fuel and the payload.
Many aircraft also have a zero fuel weight which also limits the Maximum payload. The Maximum Payload is defined as the maximum take-off weight minus the zero fuel weight.
Some aircraft have a Maximum landing weight.
Helicopters have further limitation such hovering weight in and out of ground effect.
When any extra equipment is added to an aircraft, helicopter, fixed wing or whatever the empty weight increases. Any increase to the empty weight reduces the useful load and the payload. This requires the fuel and/or the payload to be reduced. Such a reduction increases the number of trips that are required, or increases the number of fuel stops, creating more exposure to the dangerous areas.
Wikipedia (List of Coalition aircraft losses in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) lists about 42 coalition helicopters incidents in Afghanistan since 2001. Only 8 of those are confirmed hostile fire cases, and the majority of the rest are brownout cases in take-off or landing incidents. All of the hostile fire cases also occurred either on the ground or at low altitude.
Clearly, installing equipment, armour, DAS or whatever, that forces a helicopter to make more trips, to carry out more landings and to make more fuel stops, puts that helicopter in more danger than if it was less exposed in those vulnerable stages of flight.
During World War Two, there was a discussion between those who favoured large formations which were better protected from German defences, and those who agreed but thought these large formations increased the chances of mid-air collisions. Those that favoured the large formations claimed there would only be one mid-air collision per sortie on average and that this was largely offset by the larger number of aircraft that would be saved from German defences. Experience proved them right. So they willingly accepted the collisions as the lesser of two evils.
So now, helicopter pilots must ask themselves: do you want the armour (and DAS) and have to make two sorties (or an extra fuel stop), or would you rather go without armour (and or DAS) and only make one sortie (or no fuel stop)?
Last edited by Minorite invisible; 11th Aug 2009 at 15:46.
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AA. Be kind. When you've been a shop steward at Jaguar in Coventry for as long as he has, you'd know about family cars. As for helos, he has probablly recognised that they are out of warranty and he is a bit stuck.
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Oh... the squeals...
From the charming Mr Wizard. Brandnew, I take it you voiced all of your own (and not anyone elses) thoughts to the appropriate people and chain of command at the time? Or did you think putting them all down on a public forum for the world to see was the most helpful thing you could do given the current climate? Well done. Oh and there are many factual errors in your post too, so well done again.
Wow, got back to my laptop after work and there you are: Mr Wizard, that only took you 0:45 to respond. I'm very impressed!
I did indeed voice my opinions and concerns on what I saw as ineffective leadership in the Merlin Force, combined with arrogant and ocassionally ineffective aircrew. So did many others, including some in the wider RAF SH Force! I think it was listened to: how's the career of the ex-OC 28 (AC) Sqn going?
Someone PM'd me to say that the leadership of the Merlin Force, and indeed RAF Benson, has changed recently. Apparently some people from the single digit Chinook Sqn have been brought in to try and drag the level of the Merlin Force up to an acceptable standard to deploy on HERRICK. If so, then fantastic, a good proactive change that was well timed.
Mr Freaky Wizard, the reason that you don't like me posting my thoughts is that they are a bit too close to home, and I afraid that you know that! Unless you're blind and/or stupid. But, if you disagree, then please highlight my "factual errors" either publically, or via PM, and we can see what falls out of the debate. Unless you're lacking the vitals.... always a possibility with aircrew from the three engined white elephant!
Just to finish, I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for THIS conversation:
JHC: "Hello, JHC, world's premier e-mail forwarding headquarters."
Our Fearless Leader Bob A: "Ah. 'ello. I want some more of them 'elicopters to go to Afghanistan."
JHC: "Bit sticky I'm afraid. None available."
Bob: "Oh. 'ow about them shiny expensive Merlin 'elicopters. They've all left Iraq. Why can't we use 'em."
JHC: "They're all in Las Vegas and the pilots are on the piss in the MGM Grand."
Bob: "WHAT?"
JHC: "Ooops. Sorry. They're "hard at work" in El Centro."
Bob: "What are they doing there?"
JHC: "No-one knows. Essential training apparently."
Bob: "Why can't they do that somewhere closer to home?"
JHC: "No-one knows. They just seem to have gone 3000 miles further away from Afghanistan to arse about in the wrong desert."
Bob: "Which army unit are these support helicopters supporting?
JHC: "Not sure, let's have a look. Umm.... err..... Ah, no-one."
Bob: "NO-ONE?"
JHC: "Yup, looks like it. No ground troops at all involved in this exercise."
Bob: "*%***%%"
Click. Brrrrrrr...
Fly safe!
Wow, got back to my laptop after work and there you are: Mr Wizard, that only took you 0:45 to respond. I'm very impressed!
I did indeed voice my opinions and concerns on what I saw as ineffective leadership in the Merlin Force, combined with arrogant and ocassionally ineffective aircrew. So did many others, including some in the wider RAF SH Force! I think it was listened to: how's the career of the ex-OC 28 (AC) Sqn going?
Someone PM'd me to say that the leadership of the Merlin Force, and indeed RAF Benson, has changed recently. Apparently some people from the single digit Chinook Sqn have been brought in to try and drag the level of the Merlin Force up to an acceptable standard to deploy on HERRICK. If so, then fantastic, a good proactive change that was well timed.
Mr Freaky Wizard, the reason that you don't like me posting my thoughts is that they are a bit too close to home, and I afraid that you know that! Unless you're blind and/or stupid. But, if you disagree, then please highlight my "factual errors" either publically, or via PM, and we can see what falls out of the debate. Unless you're lacking the vitals.... always a possibility with aircrew from the three engined white elephant!
Just to finish, I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for THIS conversation:
JHC: "Hello, JHC, world's premier e-mail forwarding headquarters."
Our Fearless Leader Bob A: "Ah. 'ello. I want some more of them 'elicopters to go to Afghanistan."
JHC: "Bit sticky I'm afraid. None available."
Bob: "Oh. 'ow about them shiny expensive Merlin 'elicopters. They've all left Iraq. Why can't we use 'em."
JHC: "They're all in Las Vegas and the pilots are on the piss in the MGM Grand."
Bob: "WHAT?"
JHC: "Ooops. Sorry. They're "hard at work" in El Centro."
Bob: "What are they doing there?"
JHC: "No-one knows. Essential training apparently."
Bob: "Why can't they do that somewhere closer to home?"
JHC: "No-one knows. They just seem to have gone 3000 miles further away from Afghanistan to arse about in the wrong desert."
Bob: "Which army unit are these support helicopters supporting?
JHC: "Not sure, let's have a look. Umm.... err..... Ah, no-one."
Bob: "NO-ONE?"
JHC: "Yup, looks like it. No ground troops at all involved in this exercise."
Bob: "*%***%%"
Click. Brrrrrrr...
Fly safe!
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12 years since I left the SH Force where I worked with some outstanding folk but if brandnew is indicative of todays crop then I am rather glad I am out of, willy waving t0sser 
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What does a squealing Wizard sound like?
Mr Freaky Wizard- yet again, if antyhing I've said is factually incorrect then please let me know, either publically, or via PM. I am more than willing to discuss anything that I have said/observed. What you don't like is a little bit of truth. How about keeping quiet and trying to learn, before HERRICK gives you all a nasty shock.
MGD. I'm a serving AAC pilot, rank irrelevant. Over 10 years in uniform, with +1000 hours on Lynx and another +750 on another AAC type. I've served on TELIC with the Merlin force on two occasions. I've also served with other SH types, including Chinook, in a number of other theatres. No more details, as I'm sure you'll understand.
No axe to grind, just genuine confusion as to why the Merlin Force have ignored all advice from JHC and in particular the Chinook Force, and have ended up 3000 or so miles in the wrong direction. Very difficult to defend, especially today's environment.
I have no doubt that the indviduals in the Merlin Force will step up to the plate when the time comes, I just disagree with their current ethos and am perplexed by their choice of PDT!
Fly safe!
MGD. I'm a serving AAC pilot, rank irrelevant. Over 10 years in uniform, with +1000 hours on Lynx and another +750 on another AAC type. I've served on TELIC with the Merlin force on two occasions. I've also served with other SH types, including Chinook, in a number of other theatres. No more details, as I'm sure you'll understand.
No axe to grind, just genuine confusion as to why the Merlin Force have ignored all advice from JHC and in particular the Chinook Force, and have ended up 3000 or so miles in the wrong direction. Very difficult to defend, especially today's environment.
I have no doubt that the indviduals in the Merlin Force will step up to the plate when the time comes, I just disagree with their current ethos and am perplexed by their choice of PDT!
Fly safe!
Red On, Green On
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The Wokka Mk3 probs/ Merlin armour/DAS problem is a red herring - our SH problems rocky side are down to a lack of...
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parking spaces - it must be true, a senior officer said so (in The Telegraph, no less)
"Britain can only send a limited number of helicopters to Afghanistan because of a shortage of “parking” spaces, Air Cdr Simon Falla, a senior officer, has disclosed."
Hasn't he heard of parking wardens?
I think I've heard it all now
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parking spaces - it must be true, a senior officer said so (in The Telegraph, no less)
"Britain can only send a limited number of helicopters to Afghanistan because of a shortage of “parking” spaces, Air Cdr Simon Falla, a senior officer, has disclosed."
Hasn't he heard of parking wardens?
I think I've heard it all now
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Can it really be true?
As a simple soul who only rides in the back but reads this forum with great interest (and to help decide on amount of life insurance needed) this is my first and likely only post. Can any of you genuine experts out there comment on Air Cdre Falla's quoted comments in both the Times and Telegraph today re i) We cannot significantly increase the number of helicopters in Afghanistan as there's no hard-standing for them. ii) Each operational helicopter needs five crews to operate safely. As an educated layman this seems not be the outlook of an organisation at war!
Red On, Green On
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SFP - I'm sure you are right, but has the Air Cdre thought through how that will play with the Great British Public?
They've been told that Our Boys are getting limbs blown off because they have to use wheeled transport, and that we don't have enough SH in theatre, but now out comes a top-brass type who says that we can't put much/any more there because there's not enough concrete.
It's Camp Bastion we are talking about, not the flight deck of HMS Illustrious - you need more, you build more, they will rightly think.
They've been told that Our Boys are getting limbs blown off because they have to use wheeled transport, and that we don't have enough SH in theatre, but now out comes a top-brass type who says that we can't put much/any more there because there's not enough concrete.
It's Camp Bastion we are talking about, not the flight deck of HMS Illustrious - you need more, you build more, they will rightly think.
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It's Camp Bastion we are talking about, not the flight deck of HMS Illustrious - you need more, you build more, they will rightly think.
Red On, Green On
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ii) Each operational helicopter needs five crews to operate safely.
Red On, Green On
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I take it from your comments AA, that you have recent operational experience in this theatre
I have mates who have completed their third tour in Afg, so I'm not wholly out of touch.
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I'm representing the thoughts of Joe and Josephine Public
I have mates who have completed their third tour in Afg, so I'm not wholly out of touch.
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Really? What expertise in this field do you have that makes you able to represent the general public? Afghan or Iraq ops? Desert warfare and operating helicopters in these hot and high conditions?
The general public have none of this expertise nor an understanding of the complexity of operating in this environment. What they do have is reports of officers and politicians on one hand saying "we can't do this", and, on the other, shots of the space in and around Camp Bastion. So they're bound to ask why the problem cannot be overcome and more helicopters sent out immediately since of course they're not aware of all the other factors.
It's more a failure of education and PR on behalf of the MoD/RAF to explain the issues properly and a failure of the media to responsibly report the facts, which I believe that was AA's ultimate point.
"I'm a serving AAC pilot, rank irrelevant. Over 10 years in uniform, with +1000 hours on Lynx and another +750 on another AAC type."
That entitles you to my respect, admiration and thanks. I acknowledge that. You have all three.
"Apparently some people from the single digit Chinook Sqn have been brought in to try and drag the level of the Merlin Force up to an acceptable standard to deploy on HERRICK."
Saying that at all makes me question your judgement, and I'm sorry to say that your saying it on a public bulletin board makes you look like a bit of a co.ck.
That entitles you to my respect, admiration and thanks. I acknowledge that. You have all three.
"Apparently some people from the single digit Chinook Sqn have been brought in to try and drag the level of the Merlin Force up to an acceptable standard to deploy on HERRICK."
Saying that at all makes me question your judgement, and I'm sorry to say that your saying it on a public bulletin board makes you look like a bit of a co.ck.
