RAF Merlins crews unwilling to go to Afghanistan?
FFS!
An operational exponent of the Merlin has said that Nige Gilb's assessment of Merlin's fitness for purpose is wrong, and that such a charge is demoralising. Resent it all you want, but having been told by a real live current expert that the charge is both wrong AND is damaging morale, why not have the decency, humility and good sense to get down off that high horse, remove your nose from Nige's @rse, shut up and move on from a subject about which you (and Nige) plainly don't have the experience or knowledge to match your opinions and pontifications?
As to the cheap shots about the willingness or otherwise of Merlin crews to deploy (I'm disappointed in you, MGD, that goes beyond your usual 'top banter' into something that's offensive
but also unworthy 
), then perhaps you should remember Flight Lieutenant Goodman, and ask yourself whether it really was her 'gun shy' nature that resulted in the first DFC award to a woman pilot?
I'd be surprised, personally........
An operational exponent of the Merlin has said that Nige Gilb's assessment of Merlin's fitness for purpose is wrong, and that such a charge is demoralising. Resent it all you want, but having been told by a real live current expert that the charge is both wrong AND is damaging morale, why not have the decency, humility and good sense to get down off that high horse, remove your nose from Nige's @rse, shut up and move on from a subject about which you (and Nige) plainly don't have the experience or knowledge to match your opinions and pontifications?
As to the cheap shots about the willingness or otherwise of Merlin crews to deploy (I'm disappointed in you, MGD, that goes beyond your usual 'top banter' into something that's offensive
but also unworthy ), then perhaps you should remember Flight Lieutenant Goodman, and ask yourself whether it really was her 'gun shy' nature that resulted in the first DFC award to a woman pilot? I'd be surprised, personally........
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Is there a danger that the issue of Merlins will keep raising its ugly head as elements of the SH community still resent their continuing in service as they wanted more of their own pet toys to play with?
Last edited by NURSE; 10th Aug 2009 at 10:28.
Jackonicko:
Ah! A contribution from our resident man of letters. Writing any good books lately, Jacko? OMG, you're not writing one about an existing senior officer and so got upset about what I've said about some of them? Oh dear, what a pity, never mind, lovely boys, as Windsor Davies might have said. Mind you I do endorse your sentiments about the bravery of Flt Lt Goodman DFC and indeed of all who are doing such dangerous work on our behalf. All the more important surely to keep demanding that they get sufficient fit for purpose kit to do it? I do not offer any comments on the Merlin in that regard other than to say that the urgent need, in common with so much in AFG, is for both quality and quantity. Both cost money. Both must be forthcoming. Now could you just give me a hand, old boy, to get down off this mangy old nag?
FFS!
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I think Jacko got out the wrong side of the bed today?
Jacko,
Please remember that there were people who thought the same of the Herc and Nimrod and that now the Govt and MoD have admitted in court that this was not the case.
While some tempers get heated on here, let us all remember that every brave crewman (or woman) expects to be given the tools with which to do the job properlyand as safely as is possible. Because our Services risk so much on our behalf, then it is our moral obligation to ensure that happens (it maintains operational effectiveness and our scarce personnel and resources, at the very least!). For politicians and the military commanders to fail in this respect is to break the unwritten moral code or 'military covenant'.
Yes, the timescales in war can be short, which is why, on occasion, the military has had to 'get on with what they have got' - eg AFG 2001-3. Unfortunately, in this case, such an excuse does NOT apply. This conflict has been going on for nearly 8 years, for gooness sake and there has been plenty of time to ensure we go to war with enough well-protected and effective SH. Sadly, it appears that the mess that our procurement and airworthiness system has become has just not produced the goods in time - literally! Why? The self-regulating military procurement/AW system lacks oversight, money and experience and the senior masters thereof seem to lack the courage and will to stand up to industry and the politicians; they will all have to live with their role in this scandal.
But, as a result, it is our friends and family that will continue to die unecessarily. For the greater good of our Servicemen and Servicewomen, that has to change and I, for one, will not stand by idly and watch evil and selfishness destroy the lives and the reputations of the Services so many so us hold dear.
Coming?
having been told by a real live current expert that the charge is wrong
Please remember that there were people who thought the same of the Herc and Nimrod and that now the Govt and MoD have admitted in court that this was not the case.
While some tempers get heated on here, let us all remember that every brave crewman (or woman) expects to be given the tools with which to do the job properlyand as safely as is possible. Because our Services risk so much on our behalf, then it is our moral obligation to ensure that happens (it maintains operational effectiveness and our scarce personnel and resources, at the very least!). For politicians and the military commanders to fail in this respect is to break the unwritten moral code or 'military covenant'.
Yes, the timescales in war can be short, which is why, on occasion, the military has had to 'get on with what they have got' - eg AFG 2001-3. Unfortunately, in this case, such an excuse does NOT apply. This conflict has been going on for nearly 8 years, for gooness sake and there has been plenty of time to ensure we go to war with enough well-protected and effective SH. Sadly, it appears that the mess that our procurement and airworthiness system has become has just not produced the goods in time - literally! Why? The self-regulating military procurement/AW system lacks oversight, money and experience and the senior masters thereof seem to lack the courage and will to stand up to industry and the politicians; they will all have to live with their role in this scandal.
But, as a result, it is our friends and family that will continue to die unecessarily. For the greater good of our Servicemen and Servicewomen, that has to change and I, for one, will not stand by idly and watch evil and selfishness destroy the lives and the reputations of the Services so many so us hold dear.
Coming?
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Amusing as that idea is, it surely must be slightly tongue in cheek to suggest sending visitors by vehicle?
Can you imagine the propaganda Terry would get if the PM or MP's were killed? Can't reallly risk it, eh?
Can you imagine the propaganda Terry would get if the PM or MP's were killed? Can't reallly risk it, eh?
I'm entirely happy that the operators themselves have a better grasp of acceptable risk than I do.
Self evidently, they also have a better grasp than embittered ex-Herc men with a party political axe to grind.
If the Merlin crews are happy to go to war with what they've got, then that's what they should be allowed to get on and do, and without inappropriate hand wringing about airworthiness and vulnerability that will only serve to worry the families and undermine morale.
For our part, we should ensure that the pressure for more assets and for improvements is gently maintained.
But alarmist scare stories, blowing shortcomings up out of all proportion (and especially disgraceful and derogatory remarks about their willingness to deploy) do not help.
Clearly Strobin' feels that the Merlin is 'fit for purpose' in Afghanistan, and that the Merlin is a "tool with which to do the job properly". And he is better qualified to judge such matters that than those who are moaning and whingeing, wringing their hands and getting hot under the collar to the contrary.
There are, clearly, some shortcomings that will put our people at greater risk, and we should obviously seek to address these, but it is equally clear that there is no scandalous deficiency that would warrant witholding them from the line.
Chugalug,
"Writing any good books lately, Jacko? OMG, you're not writing one about an existing senior officer and so got upset about what I've said about some of them?"
Hardly. What you say about anyone is hardly important, but if I get an easy opportunity to slapping you down when you're being even more fatuously silly and kneejerk Tory than usual, then obviously I'll take it.
I suggest you go back to campaigning for memorials to Bomber Command, and to dreaming up other ways to direspect and minimise the contribution of those who served in other commands.
Self evidently, they also have a better grasp than embittered ex-Herc men with a party political axe to grind.
If the Merlin crews are happy to go to war with what they've got, then that's what they should be allowed to get on and do, and without inappropriate hand wringing about airworthiness and vulnerability that will only serve to worry the families and undermine morale.
For our part, we should ensure that the pressure for more assets and for improvements is gently maintained.
But alarmist scare stories, blowing shortcomings up out of all proportion (and especially disgraceful and derogatory remarks about their willingness to deploy) do not help.
Clearly Strobin' feels that the Merlin is 'fit for purpose' in Afghanistan, and that the Merlin is a "tool with which to do the job properly". And he is better qualified to judge such matters that than those who are moaning and whingeing, wringing their hands and getting hot under the collar to the contrary.
There are, clearly, some shortcomings that will put our people at greater risk, and we should obviously seek to address these, but it is equally clear that there is no scandalous deficiency that would warrant witholding them from the line.
Chugalug,
"Writing any good books lately, Jacko? OMG, you're not writing one about an existing senior officer and so got upset about what I've said about some of them?"
Hardly. What you say about anyone is hardly important, but if I get an easy opportunity to slapping you down when you're being even more fatuously silly and kneejerk Tory than usual, then obviously I'll take it.
I suggest you go back to campaigning for memorials to Bomber Command, and to dreaming up other ways to direspect and minimise the contribution of those who served in other commands.
Jacko:
And I suggest you go back to bed Jacko and sleep it off. The only one being offensive around here is you. When you wake up perhaps you could quote me being disrespectful and minimising the contribution of those of any Command anywhere, ever. Play the tapes Jacko, play the tapes.
I suggest you go back to campaigning for memorials to Bomber Command, and to dreaming up other ways to direspect and minimise the contribution of those who served in other commands.
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'There is no refuge, no place to go to deal with your grief' - Asia, World - The Independent
I'm a Times reader myself, but this was mentioned over on ARRSE, thought it fit with specific regard to the central core of the article about lack of helicopters...
Very brave man/woman who wrote this article, BZ to you sir/Ma'am. Echo's the thoughts of many of the soldiers I know.
Oh, and Jacko/Chug, isn't this the wrong place to be getting personal eh?
I'm a Times reader myself, but this was mentioned over on ARRSE, thought it fit with specific regard to the central core of the article about lack of helicopters...
Very brave man/woman who wrote this article, BZ to you sir/Ma'am. Echo's the thoughts of many of the soldiers I know.
Oh, and Jacko/Chug, isn't this the wrong place to be getting personal eh?
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There is No Refuge
Just a thought that if military specialist, veteran and informed journos cannot settle differences, how does it look to the young Captain in the field?
Some extracts from the link above are heart rending:
Some extracts from the link above are heart rending:
I am just speaking for those of us who deal with the deaths and injuries in Afghanistan indirectly, as an explosion in the distance, followed by a report on the radio, then a helicopter coming in to pick up the casualty.
Then there are the equipment shortages. Due to the pitiful numbers of support helicopters and Apaches needed to escort them, every day troops on the ground are forced to expend an enormous amount of hours and manpower just standing still. They sacrifice their reserves of energy, motivation and willpower securing and picketing routes for the never-ending vehicle convoys that have to keep happening in order to resupply the patchy spread of patrol bases with water, ammo and rations; as well as recovering the vehicles that invariably go into ditches and securing helicopter landing-sites for the evacuation of casualties from improvised explosive device strikes.
Its energy, time and focus is bound up with those road moves, and our most vital asset, our troops, are either sweating on the sides of the roads, securing them, or sweating inside the vehicles of those often doomed convoys. I am not criticising the military on the ground, who have to deal with this dilemma. Everyone seems to already agree on this issue of the equipment, in particular the lack of support helicopters – which rather begs the question of how on earth is nothing done about it? And how does the fact that nothing gets done about it seem to be the status quo and keeps occurring year after year, budgetary policy after budgetary policy, operational tour after operational tour? If a magic genie were to appear in front of my eyes, who in keeping with the spirit of the present credit crunch cutbacks, could afford to grant me just one wish, I think I would simply choose a massive increase in helicopters and pilots – a wish that would have such a crucial influence on what is happening to the British Army out here.
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Actually, maybe if Brown was cruising around Helmand by land vehicle, terry wouldn't risk setting off any roadside bombs. I would expect they'd be happy to see Brown stay in office for as long as possible. If they killed him, they'd run the risk of facing somebody competant in charge of the UK instead...."
Be careful what you wish for glasshopper......
Be careful what you wish for glasshopper......
I've just read the Independent story. I suppose the default reaction is to say how humble it makes one feel. Well it makes feel bloody angry. I don't know what response this country is going to give this young man, but he deserves one, and a logical objective and practical one at that. I haven't heard one yet but surely it should at least assure him that his genii will provide many more of the SH helicopters and crews for which he yearns and that they should all be fit for purpose?
Dai, you are quite right of course. No doubt PPRuNe Pop will soon be on the scene to take names and addresses. In the meantime apologies to you and everyone else for the unseemly domestic spat!
Dai, you are quite right of course. No doubt PPRuNe Pop will soon be on the scene to take names and addresses. In the meantime apologies to you and everyone else for the unseemly domestic spat!
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JTO,
I am glad you can put things straight and I was, in no way, inferring that people at the middle and lower levels of MoD are not pulling their weight - they are often the ones who have seen recent action and know the limitations our kit. I also know there are many good people (like your good self) doing all that they can to get the proverbial quart out of a pint-pot. I am also sure that the Merlin and Platform Protection, as whole, is as good as it can be (and way, way better than it was - a feat of cunning that 'the many' whom you mention should all be rightly proud).
But, given the funding, the MoD could probably have done even better and more quickly. Even then, the total number of frames is just insufficient for the task in hand; that's the problem, I fear. It is them with egg on the their hats and the politicians who are the ones who are even now condemning too many soldiers to the roads and dirt tracks of Helmand by not addressing the paltry amount allotted to the war. They are the ones who have not done enough to ensure you have the tools to do the job and are not fit to lick your boots.
Nonetheless, I consider myself ticked off and will be retiring off thread - on hols.
Good luck to all those 'sausage-side' (or is that 'kebab-continent'?)
TTFN
I am glad you can put things straight and I was, in no way, inferring that people at the middle and lower levels of MoD are not pulling their weight - they are often the ones who have seen recent action and know the limitations our kit. I also know there are many good people (like your good self) doing all that they can to get the proverbial quart out of a pint-pot. I am also sure that the Merlin and Platform Protection, as whole, is as good as it can be (and way, way better than it was - a feat of cunning that 'the many' whom you mention should all be rightly proud).
But, given the funding, the MoD could probably have done even better and more quickly. Even then, the total number of frames is just insufficient for the task in hand; that's the problem, I fear. It is them with egg on the their hats and the politicians who are the ones who are even now condemning too many soldiers to the roads and dirt tracks of Helmand by not addressing the paltry amount allotted to the war. They are the ones who have not done enough to ensure you have the tools to do the job and are not fit to lick your boots.
Nonetheless, I consider myself ticked off and will be retiring off thread - on hols.
Good luck to all those 'sausage-side' (or is that 'kebab-continent'?)
TTFN
Last edited by flipster; 10th Aug 2009 at 20:55.
As to the cheap shots about the willingness or otherwise of Merlin crews to deploy (I'm disappointed in you, MGD, that goes beyond your usual 'top banter' into something that's offensive 
but also unworthy 
), then perhaps you should remember Flight Lieutenant Goodman, and ask yourself whether it really was her 'gun shy' nature that resulted in the first DFC award to a woman pilot?
but also unworthy ), then perhaps you should remember Flight Lieutenant Goodman, and ask yourself whether it really was her 'gun shy' nature that resulted in the first DFC award to a woman pilot? The only post I have made on here, for the reasons outlined above, was that maybe if the RN had made more a fuss before, they may have the armour they are now moaning about the fact they havent moaned about!
Jacko - Read my post again, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick.
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Hmmm...
Hmmm...
The Merlin Force.
I had the pleasure of working alongside this lot out on TELIC.
Some observations (and only personal observations before everyone gets excited):
1. They drive a big, powerful (comparitively - stand fast wokka mates) unfatiguing modern aircraft, that is apparently fairly easy to drive.
2. They had (note had) a bit of a chip on their shoulder about being initially tainted as the wierd and freaky rejects from the SH Force. This had largely gone, but the slight whiff of chippyness remains.
3. They have a penchant for outrageous propoganda. I dinstinctly remember one OC 1419 Flt telling Div that they could move an infantry company in two aircraft. When tasked to do so, he revealed that they could indeed move a company in two aircraft, but that it would take three waves! This then discreditied the whole of JHF(I) for the next few weeks.
4. The move down to UAAF in Kuwait was conducted with what one impartial observor called "indecent haste". This unfortunately led to the impression (probably unfair) that they legged it from Basra when the going got tough.
5. Trying to task them once down in UAAF was unacceptably difficult. The feeling at the time (again probably unfair) was that they would go U/S at the first opportunity and spend all day eating ice cream in shorts in Kuwait, while the rest of us had a war to fight. They had clearly lost the perception battle!
6. They seemed to "big up" any IRT shout, no matter how minor, to ridiculous proportions. I accept that MG and latterly KH performed well on their respective days, but when judged against MH et al from the Chinook Force on HERRICK? Is it really in the same league?
(Just to qualify this last point, I have recently returned again from HERRICK, and seen how the excellent Chinook Force conduct themselves - very humbly and professionally indeed. This contrasts interestingly when compared to the fairly arrogant behaviour of the Merlin Force on TELIC.)
7. Lastly, and this is an army point of view so I accept there will be a difference of opinion. The Merlin Force seem very uninterested in the Land picture. On TELIC, they had no interest in the Higher Commander's Intent, his Scheme of Manouvre or any part of his plan. They rather arrogantly declared that they were delivering Air Power, and seemed deliberatly ignorant of the battlespace within which they were flying.
(Just to bring this up to date, I have been astounded by the Merlin Force's unwillingness to co-operate or even attend any of the many pre-HERRICK MRX's. It's not as if it's far away - I guess that Benson to SPTA is all of a 15 min transit. This compares unfavourably with the Chinook Force, who always attend, provide an SME when required and input excellent points in the pre-exercise planning meetings, and the PXR's when asked.)
8. The 6 month long detachment to El Centro to conduct aircrew-only PDT is without precedent. No other force has been allowed to do this. What is wrong with Morroco? It seems to suit the Chinook Force. What is wrong with Kenya? Hey, they could even support the army out there as well! it is sort of their job.... How about Arizona? The Merlin Force could practise some TTPs with the Apache boys. I am amazed, especially in an era where finances are restricted, that this has been allowed to happen. Again, the perception battle has not been won, and El Centro PDT is fast becoming a dirty phrase!
Just to conclude - I accept that comparing the vastly experienced, professional and operationally seasoned Chinook Force with the rather juvenile (in terms of time the A/C has been in service) Merlin Force could be unfair. However, the feeling in certain army circles is that the Merlin Force SERIOUSLY need to raise their game if they are not going to fall flat on their face in Afghanistan.
On the subject of up-armouring the A/C, I don't think that "Sources from the Merlin Fleet" bleating to the press is necessarily the sensible and mature way to secure your UOR! Go through normal channels. I've been doing it for years, and believe me, if you REALLY need it, and there's money available, then you'll get it. And pretty quickly too.
Yet again, these are only personal opinions from personal obervations. Please don't get too excited
Fly safe, and see you all in Bastion again next year!
The Merlin Force.
I had the pleasure of working alongside this lot out on TELIC.
Some observations (and only personal observations before everyone gets excited):
1. They drive a big, powerful (comparitively - stand fast wokka mates) unfatiguing modern aircraft, that is apparently fairly easy to drive.
2. They had (note had) a bit of a chip on their shoulder about being initially tainted as the wierd and freaky rejects from the SH Force. This had largely gone, but the slight whiff of chippyness remains.
3. They have a penchant for outrageous propoganda. I dinstinctly remember one OC 1419 Flt telling Div that they could move an infantry company in two aircraft. When tasked to do so, he revealed that they could indeed move a company in two aircraft, but that it would take three waves! This then discreditied the whole of JHF(I) for the next few weeks.
4. The move down to UAAF in Kuwait was conducted with what one impartial observor called "indecent haste". This unfortunately led to the impression (probably unfair) that they legged it from Basra when the going got tough.
5. Trying to task them once down in UAAF was unacceptably difficult. The feeling at the time (again probably unfair) was that they would go U/S at the first opportunity and spend all day eating ice cream in shorts in Kuwait, while the rest of us had a war to fight. They had clearly lost the perception battle!
6. They seemed to "big up" any IRT shout, no matter how minor, to ridiculous proportions. I accept that MG and latterly KH performed well on their respective days, but when judged against MH et al from the Chinook Force on HERRICK? Is it really in the same league?
(Just to qualify this last point, I have recently returned again from HERRICK, and seen how the excellent Chinook Force conduct themselves - very humbly and professionally indeed. This contrasts interestingly when compared to the fairly arrogant behaviour of the Merlin Force on TELIC.)
7. Lastly, and this is an army point of view so I accept there will be a difference of opinion. The Merlin Force seem very uninterested in the Land picture. On TELIC, they had no interest in the Higher Commander's Intent, his Scheme of Manouvre or any part of his plan. They rather arrogantly declared that they were delivering Air Power, and seemed deliberatly ignorant of the battlespace within which they were flying.
(Just to bring this up to date, I have been astounded by the Merlin Force's unwillingness to co-operate or even attend any of the many pre-HERRICK MRX's. It's not as if it's far away - I guess that Benson to SPTA is all of a 15 min transit. This compares unfavourably with the Chinook Force, who always attend, provide an SME when required and input excellent points in the pre-exercise planning meetings, and the PXR's when asked.)
8. The 6 month long detachment to El Centro to conduct aircrew-only PDT is without precedent. No other force has been allowed to do this. What is wrong with Morroco? It seems to suit the Chinook Force. What is wrong with Kenya? Hey, they could even support the army out there as well! it is sort of their job.... How about Arizona? The Merlin Force could practise some TTPs with the Apache boys. I am amazed, especially in an era where finances are restricted, that this has been allowed to happen. Again, the perception battle has not been won, and El Centro PDT is fast becoming a dirty phrase!
Just to conclude - I accept that comparing the vastly experienced, professional and operationally seasoned Chinook Force with the rather juvenile (in terms of time the A/C has been in service) Merlin Force could be unfair. However, the feeling in certain army circles is that the Merlin Force SERIOUSLY need to raise their game if they are not going to fall flat on their face in Afghanistan.
On the subject of up-armouring the A/C, I don't think that "Sources from the Merlin Fleet" bleating to the press is necessarily the sensible and mature way to secure your UOR! Go through normal channels. I've been doing it for years, and believe me, if you REALLY need it, and there's money available, then you'll get it. And pretty quickly too.
Yet again, these are only personal opinions from personal obervations. Please don't get too excited
Fly safe, and see you all in Bastion again next year!
Last edited by brandnew; 11th Aug 2009 at 09:36. Reason: Spelling...
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Merlin Emergency, Landed at OMFJ 11/08/09
Operating in Oman Territories / International waters and declared an emergency with gearbox problems and landed in OMFJ (UAE). All safe and sound