Wearing uniform in public
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Now understand the Army is different and it is failing matter on the EOD course if you don't wear your beret. You may recall a photo of an RAF EOD officer, in DPM, in the FI, tending a UXB and wearing an SD Hat. The fuss in the corridors of power was responsible for the re-emergence of the beret for RAF (not Regt) officers.
Thread Starter
group captain in uniform without hat wandering around the local Tesco
skirt wearing Air Commodore in a Sainsbury's
Actually, it looks like ANY former head of the military, that now says, "The Government are letting our boys/girls down. They deserve better. This is outrageous."
Whilst previously, in uniform, they seemed okay with it all.
Whilst previously, in uniform, they seemed okay with it all.
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Dress Regs
Considering the RAF has been directed to wear uniform in public (within certain limits) and that the RAF dress regs do not direct that we wear headress indoors, what is the problem with aforementioned Gp Capt and Air Cdre? Is this a case of individuals on a pilot rumour network being unfamiliar with RAF dress regs?
Last edited by Tartan Stazi; 16th Jul 2009 at 03:22.
Thread Starter
Al R
Bugger! Post dated cheque ok?
Everyone else - we seem to be splitting hairs here - yes ok, inside Tescos is "inside" I suppose, but not in the sense of inside SHQ or the squadron office block. In any case you have to be outside before going in - what are they doing, removing head dress as they go through the door? I doubt it. My main point was, if you are going to be in uniform in public, and I am all for it, keep it smart.
Bugger! Post dated cheque ok?
Everyone else - we seem to be splitting hairs here - yes ok, inside Tescos is "inside" I suppose, but not in the sense of inside SHQ or the squadron office block. In any case you have to be outside before going in - what are they doing, removing head dress as they go through the door? I doubt it. My main point was, if you are going to be in uniform in public, and I am all for it, keep it smart.
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Bring back 'proper' SWO's!!
I travel to work in uniform, however I try to avoid stopping en-route. If I do stop I ensure I am always correctly dressed.
I do not advertise my membership of the Armed Forces and would never go shopping or into town in uniform. I suppose it's a throwback to PIRA days, but I don't believe the assurances that the 'threat' to service personnel in UK is low. I believe that is only a matter or time before we see attacks on military targets in UK as a result of ops in AFG and I am not prepared to risk my wife's life or that of my two year old daughter just because a senior officer wants the RAF to be seen in public.
On the subject of standards...yes they are low and not enforced properly.
Until we get a better quality working uniform and dress regulations are robustly adhered to and enforced at all levels this will not change.
Lets face it, basic training is not what it was. Only this week while driving through camp I saw a 3 visiting Cranwell OCdts walking along, one of whom had his hands in his pockets...shock horror I hear you say, but it's one example of a very basic failure in the system that that lad probably didn't know better. I would like to think he wouldn't be let loose on a real station before being taught the basics.
Personally, I think it all started going wrong when they did away with the RAF GD/ RAF Admin trade and 'proper' SWO's!!
I do not advertise my membership of the Armed Forces and would never go shopping or into town in uniform. I suppose it's a throwback to PIRA days, but I don't believe the assurances that the 'threat' to service personnel in UK is low. I believe that is only a matter or time before we see attacks on military targets in UK as a result of ops in AFG and I am not prepared to risk my wife's life or that of my two year old daughter just because a senior officer wants the RAF to be seen in public.
On the subject of standards...yes they are low and not enforced properly.
Until we get a better quality working uniform and dress regulations are robustly adhered to and enforced at all levels this will not change.
Lets face it, basic training is not what it was. Only this week while driving through camp I saw a 3 visiting Cranwell OCdts walking along, one of whom had his hands in his pockets...shock horror I hear you say, but it's one example of a very basic failure in the system that that lad probably didn't know better. I would like to think he wouldn't be let loose on a real station before being taught the basics.
Personally, I think it all started going wrong when they did away with the RAF GD/ RAF Admin trade and 'proper' SWO's!!
Going up to a senior officer inside a shop and making smart alec comments about head dress is, to my mind, rather puerile.
A bit like the jumped up little tyke at 60 Sqn Wildenrath who stopped me as I walked back in flying kit to my aeroplane.... "Can I see your ID, sir?", he said. "Yes, very probably as it's written on my flying suit. If you mean may you see my F1250, be more specific in future. By the way, when did you last clean those filthy shoes, airman?".
Do Blunt Wing (or wahtever the latest term for the desk-sucking blotter-jotters is) still expect people to wear hats indoors? Why?? It's correct to wear a hat and salute when entering an office, I was always led to understand, even if you are a Group Captain and the office belongs to a Plt Off.
As for the daft Army in the Malvinas DeathStar who insist on wearing hats inside the concrete canyons.....
Hats should be worn with uniform outdoors, I quite agree. But it's quite difficult to do any shopping if you have to hold a hat in one hand, so walking the few yards between the car park and Sainsburys without a hat is perhaps practical and reasonable. Shopping whilst wearing a hat indoors looks plain daft; fortunately, aircrew can stuff a chip bag into a flying suit lower leg pocket - not really an option for a female Air Cdre in a skirt.
Another idiocy at one station was the SWO who tried to insist on people wearing hats whilst driving. The headroom in most modern cars isn't sufficient to cater for an SD cap, so turning your head only to have the SD cap fall over your eyes is an avoidable hazard - the boss agreed and asked OC Blunts to reprogramme the SWO for the 20th century.
A bit like the jumped up little tyke at 60 Sqn Wildenrath who stopped me as I walked back in flying kit to my aeroplane.... "Can I see your ID, sir?", he said. "Yes, very probably as it's written on my flying suit. If you mean may you see my F1250, be more specific in future. By the way, when did you last clean those filthy shoes, airman?".
Do Blunt Wing (or wahtever the latest term for the desk-sucking blotter-jotters is) still expect people to wear hats indoors? Why?? It's correct to wear a hat and salute when entering an office, I was always led to understand, even if you are a Group Captain and the office belongs to a Plt Off.
As for the daft Army in the Malvinas DeathStar who insist on wearing hats inside the concrete canyons.....
Hats should be worn with uniform outdoors, I quite agree. But it's quite difficult to do any shopping if you have to hold a hat in one hand, so walking the few yards between the car park and Sainsburys without a hat is perhaps practical and reasonable. Shopping whilst wearing a hat indoors looks plain daft; fortunately, aircrew can stuff a chip bag into a flying suit lower leg pocket - not really an option for a female Air Cdre in a skirt.
Another idiocy at one station was the SWO who tried to insist on people wearing hats whilst driving. The headroom in most modern cars isn't sufficient to cater for an SD cap, so turning your head only to have the SD cap fall over your eyes is an avoidable hazard - the boss agreed and asked OC Blunts to reprogramme the SWO for the 20th century.
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Beagle
When you say "jumped up little tyke" was the, I presume, Airman, engaged on SSGF or other security duties? In fact, disregard that. It is the responsibility of everyone to ensure security so it matters not what duties he was engaged in. Did it upset you that the 'tyke' didn't recognise the big 'I am' in a Flying Suit? If you see someone you don't recognise strolling around a military base and in your opinion needs their identity challenging then it is incumbent on you to do so. And I can't believe you give me a hard time about puerility when you admit you come up with a smart alec quip about shoe polish.
When you say "jumped up little tyke" was the, I presume, Airman, engaged on SSGF or other security duties? In fact, disregard that. It is the responsibility of everyone to ensure security so it matters not what duties he was engaged in. Did it upset you that the 'tyke' didn't recognise the big 'I am' in a Flying Suit? If you see someone you don't recognise strolling around a military base and in your opinion needs their identity challenging then it is incumbent on you to do so. And I can't believe you give me a hard time about puerility when you admit you come up with a smart alec quip about shoe polish.
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Beags
I agree with your opinion of the chap mentioned below.
Originally by BEagle
A bit like the jumped up little tyke at 60 Sqn Wildenrath who stopped me as I walked back in flying kit to my aeroplane.... "Can I see your ID, sir?", he said. "Yes, very probably as it's written on my flying suit. If you mean may you see my F1250, be more specific in future. By the way, when did you last clean those filthy shoes, airman?".
When testing airfields etc. (for security) chaps like this used to make life harder for me (as I may have been walking towards aircraft in a flight suit and carrying a very fake bomb), as I would not have had a genuine RAF ID on me.
What made life SO much easier were bulshy officers who would often snap at junior ranks for asking to see their ID, and thus stopping the junior rank asking again.
In one way I did not blame the juniors for their subsequent lack of security enforcement, after all it would be the pilot whom was blown to pieces by me (simulated) or by a terrorist.
I guess dress regs are there for a reason, just as security is. It reminds me I once gained access to a controlled bunker at High Wycombe dressed in a works overall and my only ID was that from my local video rental shop.
IMHO if uniform and standards are adhered to, then most other things fall into place too.
Originally by BEagle
A bit like the jumped up little tyke at 60 Sqn Wildenrath who stopped me as I walked back in flying kit to my aeroplane.... "Can I see your ID, sir?", he said. "Yes, very probably as it's written on my flying suit. If you mean may you see my F1250, be more specific in future. By the way, when did you last clean those filthy shoes, airman?".
When testing airfields etc. (for security) chaps like this used to make life harder for me (as I may have been walking towards aircraft in a flight suit and carrying a very fake bomb), as I would not have had a genuine RAF ID on me.
What made life SO much easier were bulshy officers who would often snap at junior ranks for asking to see their ID, and thus stopping the junior rank asking again.
In one way I did not blame the juniors for their subsequent lack of security enforcement, after all it would be the pilot whom was blown to pieces by me (simulated) or by a terrorist.
I guess dress regs are there for a reason, just as security is. It reminds me I once gained access to a controlled bunker at High Wycombe dressed in a works overall and my only ID was that from my local video rental shop.
IMHO if uniform and standards are adhered to, then most other things fall into place too.
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Do Blunt Wing (or wahtever the latest term for the desk-sucking blotter-jotters is) still expect people to wear hats indoors? Why?? It's correct to wear a hat and salute when entering an office, I was always led to understand, even if you are a Group Captain and the office belongs to a Plt Off.
I remember one boss, knocked on my door, asked if he could come in and was it convenient to discuss my 1369.
Beat "my office Now" types.
Grabbers, no he wasn't. He was a Pembroke aircraft mechanic determined to try to "Annoy a zob" and score a point. That was entirely obvious.
He'd already watched me cross the ASP to VASF to phone Ops - and decided to try it on as I walked back to the jet.
And yes, although he was indeed a scruffy little $hit who needed to get a grip, I certainly did show him my F1250.
I used to have absolutely no objection to showing my F1250 to anyone; as an ex-Cranwell Flt Cdt, I always had my F1250 on me having had that drilled in to me on about Day 2 of life in the RAF. But smart-alec airmen who use the excuse of an ID challenge merely to try to score points help no-one.
On a lighter note, a well-known F4 fightergator ('Wee Stevie') once made the mistake of leaving his F1250 in his SD cap when he went flying. He came back, then drove home. The next day he was rather unimpressed when the lad on the gate checking his F1250 burst into uncontrolled laughter when he saw WS' ID.....
A few minutes with a black chinagraph hadn't exactly 'improved' his photo! But he saw the funny side as it was a harmless jape - and of course he never left his F1250 lying around again!
Best fake ID I heard about was the guy at Aldermaston AWRE in the hottest time of the Cold War who had a photo of Nikita Kruschev on his security badge for about 9 months before it was noticed!
He'd already watched me cross the ASP to VASF to phone Ops - and decided to try it on as I walked back to the jet.
And yes, although he was indeed a scruffy little $hit who needed to get a grip, I certainly did show him my F1250.
I used to have absolutely no objection to showing my F1250 to anyone; as an ex-Cranwell Flt Cdt, I always had my F1250 on me having had that drilled in to me on about Day 2 of life in the RAF. But smart-alec airmen who use the excuse of an ID challenge merely to try to score points help no-one.
On a lighter note, a well-known F4 fightergator ('Wee Stevie') once made the mistake of leaving his F1250 in his SD cap when he went flying. He came back, then drove home. The next day he was rather unimpressed when the lad on the gate checking his F1250 burst into uncontrolled laughter when he saw WS' ID.....
A few minutes with a black chinagraph hadn't exactly 'improved' his photo! But he saw the funny side as it was a harmless jape - and of course he never left his F1250 lying around again!
Best fake ID I heard about was the guy at Aldermaston AWRE in the hottest time of the Cold War who had a photo of Nikita Kruschev on his security badge for about 9 months before it was noticed!
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We would do the pre-mission prep and remove all identification except for dog-tags.
Now there were ways around this but no one ever thought to address the issue.
We could have had 1250s in "non-exercise" envelopes for diversion to a non-playing airfield.
We could have been met after landing in one of Betty's aircraft and issued with a special pass for the unit - pilot in WJ961 or whatever as your actual name was irrelevant and it was only necessary to ensure you could get in to your own aircraft.
However once, in one of Aunty's aircraft, but playing orange, wearing a flying suite in a fetching shade of green dyed with red, pukka name tag and rank of a Starshkiy Lieutenant and ID to match, had no problem getting in to Ops as I had ID
When a rather more switched on officer saw me he went "Oh my G*D, how did you get in here?"
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Pilots ID's are never checked thoroughly. I watched a documentary on it once, I think it was called Firefox.
on the wearing uniform in public, I always feel uneasy seeing ranks or officers walking around Sainsbury's etc wearing rig. But that is because I was 'lucky' enough to be in when Gerry and paddy weren't our boosom buddies.
Didn't stop you being able to ping all of the blokes in Paddington station at 2000hrs on a Sunday though. Very short hair, t shirt, fleece and jeans, desert Boots and a large bag (sometimes with a mil tag on it).
on the wearing uniform in public, I always feel uneasy seeing ranks or officers walking around Sainsbury's etc wearing rig. But that is because I was 'lucky' enough to be in when Gerry and paddy weren't our boosom buddies.
Didn't stop you being able to ping all of the blokes in Paddington station at 2000hrs on a Sunday though. Very short hair, t shirt, fleece and jeans, desert Boots and a large bag (sometimes with a mil tag on it).