Fury at Def Sec over Helicopter Shortage
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I hope to god there won't be any more undermining of what the lads are doing out there because of this. We are taking the fight to the enemy and that means we are going to lose lives. Many commentators will correlate the loss of life with incompetence but we must remember that to destroy these bastards we have to take risks out on the ground. Sometimes, we will sacrifice armour for manouverability but that in itself, is a form of protection. I hope that the troops continue to extract a good price for our loss and that for every one of ours who dies, many more of those evil bastards die.
These guys will.. (whatever we say) will fade from our own day to day memories but not from those who worked with them and who raised them and loved them. Those who they died trying to help over there will never know them either, and that might make it 'pointless'. But their lives weren't pointless - they knew friendships and experienced things that a slimy Nick Clegg never will. What he thinks he has in common with them, is beyond me. Nick Clegg by being the first politician to break ranks, is simply applying his tried and tested Speaker Martin model of making headlines. This is why, not only would I never vote for a Lib Dem politician, I would never even listen to one.
My heart goes out to the families of those who will spend this weekend in a mute, numb haze. I wish to god I could do something to ease their pain, but I can't. That makes me so angry and helpless, even though I'm past it and thousands of miles away.
These guys will.. (whatever we say) will fade from our own day to day memories but not from those who worked with them and who raised them and loved them. Those who they died trying to help over there will never know them either, and that might make it 'pointless'. But their lives weren't pointless - they knew friendships and experienced things that a slimy Nick Clegg never will. What he thinks he has in common with them, is beyond me. Nick Clegg by being the first politician to break ranks, is simply applying his tried and tested Speaker Martin model of making headlines. This is why, not only would I never vote for a Lib Dem politician, I would never even listen to one.
My heart goes out to the families of those who will spend this weekend in a mute, numb haze. I wish to god I could do something to ease their pain, but I can't. That makes me so angry and helpless, even though I'm past it and thousands of miles away.
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Labour Ministers in power!
I wonder if any of this current shoddy lot would ever let their offsprings place a foot in the sand of Helmand,...... some how I think not.... they would fein illness or weakness in their spines and/or wear pink frilly things! what an absolute shower of Shysters.
Peter R-B
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Peter R-B
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Mr Milliband on Radio 4 this morning - did not answer the question and did not provide any acknowledgement or recognition that his department should be assisting the MoD to resource/ fund operations that we are conducting on behalf of his department's request.
And if he and Mr Ainsworth really do not believe that more capable helicopters are not going to add and assist the protection of ground forces then I remain totally lost for words - as I am sure the British public now recognise.
And if he and Mr Ainsworth really do not believe that more capable helicopters are not going to add and assist the protection of ground forces then I remain totally lost for words - as I am sure the British public now recognise.
Helicopter Shortage
Back in the mid 90s I was working in Resettlement and associated training - I tried explaining to those leaving the Services that very few employers or recriters knew anything of the Services except the misconceptions from TV programes like "Get Fell In", "Ain't 'Alf Hot, Mum" and even "Dad's Army".
Nothing has changed, and for those on the Front Line, it is worse, because their political masters do not have a clue of the environment in which they fight, the importance of equipment or lack of it, or the ethos that is required to be able to do the job effectively. I wonder if a Minister even bothers to go to Lyneham now to meet the increasingly frequent of C17 arrivals. As the political leaders of a country engaged in a war they are a collective disgrace.
Do I feel angry - too right I do
Wander00
Nothing has changed, and for those on the Front Line, it is worse, because their political masters do not have a clue of the environment in which they fight, the importance of equipment or lack of it, or the ethos that is required to be able to do the job effectively. I wonder if a Minister even bothers to go to Lyneham now to meet the increasingly frequent of C17 arrivals. As the political leaders of a country engaged in a war they are a collective disgrace.
Do I feel angry - too right I do
Wander00
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Al R
So does mine, to the families of those on BOTH sides who will spend this weekend in a mute, numb haze.
Yeah the politicians on both sides of the pond that got us into this mess.
B.
My heart goes out to the families of those who will spend this weekend in a mute, numb haze.
those evil bastards
B.
Isaneng - your post 91 - Politicians at Lyneham - fair point, but I just wish polician's utternces showed they had SOME idea...
As ever, sincerest condolences to the families having their worst ever weekend
As ever, sincerest condolences to the families having their worst ever weekend
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MaroonMan4
Whilst I agree SH needs far more money, going to the FO (or even DFiD) isn't going to turn up many pennies, the FO budget is less than Ł2 bn. (F)Ire needs to be turned on the organ grinder, as Guthrie did yesterday. Also the top uniforms in defence need to stop fighting amongst themselves and do what they are paid to do, ensure this country is adequately defended against all threats. Defence needs more money, the country can afford it, it just needs to stop subsidising the very rich (Bailouts, PFIs etc) and the very lazy (social security).
Mr Milliband on Radio 4 this morning - did not answer the question and did not provide any acknowledgement or recognition that his department should be assisting the MoD to resource/ fund operations that we are conducting on behalf of his department's request.
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Bronx,
There is a difference between people with no mandate who target innocent men, women and children, and those involved with fighting them. I would rather spend effort grieving for the families of those who had no choice out there, rather than the families of the terrorists who might foster them.
There is a difference between people with no mandate who target innocent men, women and children, and those involved with fighting them. I would rather spend effort grieving for the families of those who had no choice out there, rather than the families of the terrorists who might foster them.
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If we change the way we do things so will they, perversely we could make ourselves more vulnerable.
... said Gen. Haig in 1916.
... On the morning of July 1, 1916, 110,000 British infantrymen went “over the top.” In a few hours, 60,000 of them were casualties. Nearly 20,000 of these were either dead already or would die of their wounds, many of them lingering for days between the trenches, in no man’s land. The attacking forces did not gain a single one of their objectives.
Even so, a staff colonel had the cheek to write: “The events of July 1st bore out the conclusions of the British higher command and amply justified the tactical methods employed.” ...
Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig: World War I’s Worst General HistoryNet
... said Gen. Haig in 1916.
... On the morning of July 1, 1916, 110,000 British infantrymen went “over the top.” In a few hours, 60,000 of them were casualties. Nearly 20,000 of these were either dead already or would die of their wounds, many of them lingering for days between the trenches, in no man’s land. The attacking forces did not gain a single one of their objectives.
Even so, a staff colonel had the cheek to write: “The events of July 1st bore out the conclusions of the British higher command and amply justified the tactical methods employed.” ...
Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig: World War I’s Worst General HistoryNet
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Hi all
I've hopped over from the Green side of things and would like an answer to a debate Ive been having over there.
Some have been contending that servicing of aircraft on ops has been regularly compromised in order to get aircraft turnaround faster. Although out of service (groundcrew, green skin) for 20 years I dispute this happens. Can someone give me an answer as to whether this happens and if I'm wrong I'll toddle back, apologise and wind my neck in.
Thanks in advance gents.
I've hopped over from the Green side of things and would like an answer to a debate Ive been having over there.
Some have been contending that servicing of aircraft on ops has been regularly compromised in order to get aircraft turnaround faster. Although out of service (groundcrew, green skin) for 20 years I dispute this happens. Can someone give me an answer as to whether this happens and if I'm wrong I'll toddle back, apologise and wind my neck in.
Thanks in advance gents.
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Throughout the day I have read from and listened to politician after politician spin their way out of the 'are there enough helicopters for Afghanistan' question.
I still do not understand why the mobility (and therefore assistance to protection) afforded by helicopters for the troops on patrol appears to be such a hard concept to grasp - despite years of Northern Ireland and Balkans experience that (re) proved the concept in very recent times.
Surprise, random patrol routes and footprint, re-supply by air instantly to me highlight why helicopters afford the commanders on the ground the flexibility to choose their method of manoeuvre.
Although not wishing to sing my own aircraft's superb lift capability (in comparison to the usual suspects), but with sufficient numbers of CH47 we may not be able to conduct Air Manoeuvre, but routine Air Mobility yes and with sufficient numbers could assist patrols lift with medium armoured vehicles (which I think is the compromise that the Def Sec is looking for) to minimise the use of roads and tracks.
I await for CGS or CDS or CAS or even down to a tactical commander on the ground to go on Sky or BBC or interview in the media and say that the politicans are right and actually no more helicopters are required - now or in the future and that stopping the funding and 10 years of delaying decisions has been the right policy.
Again, I reiterate that helicopters are not the panacea but to brush them off as though there is enough of them and actually no more are required I find incredulous. The Merlin re-roling to theatre was always going to happen anyway, so please do not hide behind that as a magical 'look what we are doing now' as the MoD/political spin doctors used the Merlin rabbit out of the hat when the lack of helicopters in Afghanistan last hit the media/public spotlight.
As to the post on compromising technical flight safety for quick turn arounds - with a girlfriend and a responsibility to kids do you think that I would strap in to an aircraft that I knew or even thought had been rushed through a servicing?
The issue is that there are no 'spares' so if I did go u/s on start I cannot just strap into the fully prepped spare on the line, waiting to go.
So no - to my knowledge from a light blue perspective minor snags are carried (medium if there is life at the end of it), but there are no short cuts going in theatre, just the frustrations of not enough aircraft, let alone if I need the the imaginary 'spare'.
I still do not understand why the mobility (and therefore assistance to protection) afforded by helicopters for the troops on patrol appears to be such a hard concept to grasp - despite years of Northern Ireland and Balkans experience that (re) proved the concept in very recent times.
Surprise, random patrol routes and footprint, re-supply by air instantly to me highlight why helicopters afford the commanders on the ground the flexibility to choose their method of manoeuvre.
Although not wishing to sing my own aircraft's superb lift capability (in comparison to the usual suspects), but with sufficient numbers of CH47 we may not be able to conduct Air Manoeuvre, but routine Air Mobility yes and with sufficient numbers could assist patrols lift with medium armoured vehicles (which I think is the compromise that the Def Sec is looking for) to minimise the use of roads and tracks.
I await for CGS or CDS or CAS or even down to a tactical commander on the ground to go on Sky or BBC or interview in the media and say that the politicans are right and actually no more helicopters are required - now or in the future and that stopping the funding and 10 years of delaying decisions has been the right policy.
Again, I reiterate that helicopters are not the panacea but to brush them off as though there is enough of them and actually no more are required I find incredulous. The Merlin re-roling to theatre was always going to happen anyway, so please do not hide behind that as a magical 'look what we are doing now' as the MoD/political spin doctors used the Merlin rabbit out of the hat when the lack of helicopters in Afghanistan last hit the media/public spotlight.
As to the post on compromising technical flight safety for quick turn arounds - with a girlfriend and a responsibility to kids do you think that I would strap in to an aircraft that I knew or even thought had been rushed through a servicing?
The issue is that there are no 'spares' so if I did go u/s on start I cannot just strap into the fully prepped spare on the line, waiting to go.
So no - to my knowledge from a light blue perspective minor snags are carried (medium if there is life at the end of it), but there are no short cuts going in theatre, just the frustrations of not enough aircraft, let alone if I need the the imaginary 'spare'.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 12th Jul 2009 at 20:49.
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From the Times on line today, re insufficient helicopters and troops in Afg;
Labour clashes with army as Afghan death toll mounts - Times Online
Lesson number one might well be 'Listen to your CGS'.
BTW what risk is a soon to be retired CGS taking?
R
Labour clashes with army as Afghan death toll mounts - Times Online
A Labour minister said: “General Dannatt has crossed an important line. He is playing a high-risk game.” David Crausby, a Labour member of the Commons defence committee, added: “It is not appropriate to play party politics at this time. Dannatt should just get on with the job. After the conflict, if there are lessons to be learnt, we should do so in a considered manner.”
BTW what risk is a soon to be retired CGS taking?
R
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Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth has rejected claims UK troops in Afghanistan are ill-equipped, saying more helicopters could not remove risk.
No, they do not end the risk but they don't half reduce the risk from IEDs and suicide attack.
I'd like to bet that we are witnessing the worst Secretary of State for Defence in a very, very long time. In a similar manner to Brown, he can't blame the guy who was in before him, as he was part of that very (broken) machine. Causby's quotes in Riskman's post simply emphasise how out of touch these idiots are when they publicly slur their own subject matter expert.
I am growing very tired of listening to the pure **** that comes from his mouth, routinely. (Sorry about the use of the word '****' Mods, but there's no other way to describe it and apperently, it's ok now, some sciencey-blokes said so Keele University Research)
The Right Equipment for the Armed Forces
I was under the impression that, both the Government of the day & the most senior Military Staff (CDS etc) had a `duty of care` to all the members of the Armed Forces. I would suggest, that by knowingly sending the Armed Forces into any active operational zone without the right & best equipment for the job, this `duty of care` has not been met.
Would there be a case therefore, for the familiy of any of our Service Personnel who have tragically lost their lives, where it was obvious that this loss of life was due to poor equipment, for example the use of under defended Land Rovers as against far more robust vehicles, to sue the Prime Minister, Defence Secretary & the Chief of the Defence Staff amongst others, as they had or not, totally failed in their `duty of care`.
Would there be a case therefore, for the familiy of any of our Service Personnel who have tragically lost their lives, where it was obvious that this loss of life was due to poor equipment, for example the use of under defended Land Rovers as against far more robust vehicles, to sue the Prime Minister, Defence Secretary & the Chief of the Defence Staff amongst others, as they had or not, totally failed in their `duty of care`.
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From today´s Torygraph:
Quite possibly a true statement, (although the words "truë" and "politician" seem alien together) - BUT: the real question surely is, was there enough SH two years ago?
In response to the criticism over a lack of helicopters Mr Brown insisted that British forces “have almost twice as much helicopter capability as two years ago”.