Offr "Branches" vs. OR "Trades" - can anyone help?
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Offr "Branches" vs. OR "Trades" - can anyone help?
Dear all,
I hope someone on here may be able to help with this, given that there are plenty of serving and retired regulars (of various persuasions) on the forum!
I am trying to research (as a pet project, and also to settle a bunch of discussions/arguments!) whether it is possible for SNCOs and WOs to serve in "a Branch".
The fundamental question is this...
As many of you will be aware there has been, and still is, a debate within the ATC as to whether either (a) Adult SNCOs & WOs could, or (b) should, serve in the RAFVR(T) rather than the ATC (as they do at the moment, as a uniformed civilian, rather than a member of the RAFR).
I'm not so interested in the (b) debate, rather the technicalities of (a). Is it possible for SNCOs and WOs to serve in the RAFVR (Training branch), or are "branches" Officers only? ...if so, why/why not? What are the reasons in terms of regulations, precedent, etc. Some information I have suggests that "branches" are Offrs only, whereas ORs have "trades" or "trade groups". If this is the case, does this apply the whole of the RAF and its reserves, or is this regulars only?
I'm aware that ORs have previously served in the RAFVR, and still do (as Offr Cdts) on UAS - but I cannot establish through my own reseach the current and correct organisation of the RAFVR.
After the Reserve Forces Act 1996 "remustered" the war-appointable RAFVR 7000-Flts into the RAuxAF, the remaining elements of the VR were the RAFVR(UAS) and RAFVR(T) ...later joined by Offr Cdts on the Defence Technical Undergraduate Scheme (trainee EngOs at the Welbeck Defence VI Form College).
Post RFA96 (from 1 Apr 97) the RAFVR remained a formation within the RAFR, but my burning question is this:
Are the RAFVR(UAS), RAFVR(T), & RAFVR(DTUS) considered to be 3 seperate branches within the RAFVR, and if so, does the fact that UAS and DTUS Offr Cdts have OR status (being uncommissioned) set the precedent to allow SNCOs and WOs to serve in the VR(T)?
If so why, if not, why not?
This isnt a wind-up, its a serious question and I hope the combined knowledge of PPrune can help me resolve the question. I know some people will no doubt have their opinions on VR(T), and I hope to avoid that sort of discussion.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers
Ash679
I hope someone on here may be able to help with this, given that there are plenty of serving and retired regulars (of various persuasions) on the forum!
I am trying to research (as a pet project, and also to settle a bunch of discussions/arguments!) whether it is possible for SNCOs and WOs to serve in "a Branch".
The fundamental question is this...
As many of you will be aware there has been, and still is, a debate within the ATC as to whether either (a) Adult SNCOs & WOs could, or (b) should, serve in the RAFVR(T) rather than the ATC (as they do at the moment, as a uniformed civilian, rather than a member of the RAFR).
I'm not so interested in the (b) debate, rather the technicalities of (a). Is it possible for SNCOs and WOs to serve in the RAFVR (Training branch), or are "branches" Officers only? ...if so, why/why not? What are the reasons in terms of regulations, precedent, etc. Some information I have suggests that "branches" are Offrs only, whereas ORs have "trades" or "trade groups". If this is the case, does this apply the whole of the RAF and its reserves, or is this regulars only?
I'm aware that ORs have previously served in the RAFVR, and still do (as Offr Cdts) on UAS - but I cannot establish through my own reseach the current and correct organisation of the RAFVR.
After the Reserve Forces Act 1996 "remustered" the war-appointable RAFVR 7000-Flts into the RAuxAF, the remaining elements of the VR were the RAFVR(UAS) and RAFVR(T) ...later joined by Offr Cdts on the Defence Technical Undergraduate Scheme (trainee EngOs at the Welbeck Defence VI Form College).
Post RFA96 (from 1 Apr 97) the RAFVR remained a formation within the RAFR, but my burning question is this:
Are the RAFVR(UAS), RAFVR(T), & RAFVR(DTUS) considered to be 3 seperate branches within the RAFVR, and if so, does the fact that UAS and DTUS Offr Cdts have OR status (being uncommissioned) set the precedent to allow SNCOs and WOs to serve in the VR(T)?
If so why, if not, why not?
This isnt a wind-up, its a serious question and I hope the combined knowledge of PPrune can help me resolve the question. I know some people will no doubt have their opinions on VR(T), and I hope to avoid that sort of discussion.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers
Ash679
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Ash,
You are confusing two separate organisational aspects.
With respect to the RAF VR follow the link. You will find info relating to the status of UAS and DTUS unit staff and students in the vicinity.
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RAF Officers are in a Branch; Engineer, Logistics, General Duties etc.
Non-comissioned members of the RAF are in a Trade. For example there are 7 engineering & technical trades but only one Engineer Branch ie specialist worker bees and management. The question of ORs being 'Branch' or not is therefore illogical.
Riskman
You are confusing two separate organisational aspects.
With respect to the RAF VR follow the link. You will find info relating to the status of UAS and DTUS unit staff and students in the vicinity.
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RAF Officers are in a Branch; Engineer, Logistics, General Duties etc.
Non-comissioned members of the RAF are in a Trade. For example there are 7 engineering & technical trades but only one Engineer Branch ie specialist worker bees and management. The question of ORs being 'Branch' or not is therefore illogical.
Riskman
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All NCA serve in a branch. Trades apply to ground duties, though I am not sure about the tekkies on the E-3D - suppose you could consider them a bit like the ginger cousin you only see at christmas
.
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Unbelievable!
A chap posts a genuine enquiry, albeit a little unclear in its expression, and the vultures circle for 4 days to see who will be the first to post a reply so they can swoop in and reinforce their sense of self-worth by pointing out a minor inaccuracy.
Camelspyder, if you know so f***ing much answer the question and have done, otherwise f*** off.
A chap posts a genuine enquiry, albeit a little unclear in its expression, and the vultures circle for 4 days to see who will be the first to post a reply so they can swoop in and reinforce their sense of self-worth by pointing out a minor inaccuracy.
Camelspyder, if you know so f***ing much answer the question and have done, otherwise f*** off.
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Sorry RiskMan
I thought your answer re Branch+Trade was spot on.
However, the fisherman part of me can't resist baiting a hook now and then...
Oh... Rocket are you GD(flying) or GD(grounded) at the moment???
I am now f****** o** in fine pitch, Sirs (tugs forelock and exits stage left...)
CS
I thought your answer re Branch+Trade was spot on.
However, the fisherman part of me can't resist baiting a hook now and then...
Oh... Rocket are you GD(flying) or GD(grounded) at the moment???
I am now f****** o** in fine pitch, Sirs (tugs forelock and exits stage left...)
CS
Doh!
Thread Starter
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Riskman et al,
Thanks for your answers.
I'm pretty well up on the RAFVR itself, just not how it is currently organised in terms of how each of its "formations" (for want of a better word) relate to each other, other than knowing that following the 1997 re-organisation, the VR(T), UAS, & DTUS are the only remaining "formations" in the VR ...I was perhaps not as clear as I could or should have been in my original question.
So - the fundamental question is this - can SNCOs and WOs serve in the VR(T) or not? If so, why, and if not, why not?
Is the RAFVR (Training branch) - by regulation(s) - a branch (for Officers only) in the same way as Engineer, Logistics, General Duties etc. in the regular RAF?
If so, can ORs also serve in the VR(T), or is this not possible because ORs serve in a particular Trade, rather than a branch (like Officers)? (the essential issue here being that ATC SNCOs & WOs(ATC) do not have a Trade under current system, as they are in the ATC - and are, in terms of status, civilians in uniform - rather than being in the RAFR).
Or... is all of this a myth, and do these aspects (i.e. branches & trades) of the regular RAF organisational structure not apply to the Reserve Air Forces?
I could probably do with a copy of AP3392 Vol.7 (please PM if you can help me with an electronic copy, unless it is protectively marked - forgive my ignorance, never seen a copy!)
Cheers
Ash679
Thanks for your answers.
I'm pretty well up on the RAFVR itself, just not how it is currently organised in terms of how each of its "formations" (for want of a better word) relate to each other, other than knowing that following the 1997 re-organisation, the VR(T), UAS, & DTUS are the only remaining "formations" in the VR ...I was perhaps not as clear as I could or should have been in my original question.
So - the fundamental question is this - can SNCOs and WOs serve in the VR(T) or not? If so, why, and if not, why not?
Is the RAFVR (Training branch) - by regulation(s) - a branch (for Officers only) in the same way as Engineer, Logistics, General Duties etc. in the regular RAF?
If so, can ORs also serve in the VR(T), or is this not possible because ORs serve in a particular Trade, rather than a branch (like Officers)? (the essential issue here being that ATC SNCOs & WOs(ATC) do not have a Trade under current system, as they are in the ATC - and are, in terms of status, civilians in uniform - rather than being in the RAFR).
Or... is all of this a myth, and do these aspects (i.e. branches & trades) of the regular RAF organisational structure not apply to the Reserve Air Forces?
I could probably do with a copy of AP3392 Vol.7 (please PM if you can help me with an electronic copy, unless it is protectively marked - forgive my ignorance, never seen a copy!)
Cheers
Ash679
