French snub the Queen over D-Day 65th
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Partial U turn, not all squared away and Brown IS responsible for everything! Having nothing better to do during a quiet shift I searched for anagrams of Nicholas Sarkozy. Crazy Snail Hooks seemed about right!
I don't think it is worth getting worked up about.
My grandfather arrived in Normandy in the early hours of 6th June 1944. Funnily enough, after the war he maintained a grudging respect for the Germans (Normal Wermacht, not the others), but couldnt stand the French.
I am pretty sure the Dutch would be over the moon for HM to attend the 65th Anniversary of Market Garden. They have slightly more humility, a better recall of history and an generally respectful outlook.
You may even persuade some of the vets to jump once more. Downing St could be the key objective in the current battle to save the UK from the dark forces of tyranny. Who knows, the Ghurkas may join the fray.
MGD
My grandfather arrived in Normandy in the early hours of 6th June 1944. Funnily enough, after the war he maintained a grudging respect for the Germans (Normal Wermacht, not the others), but couldnt stand the French.
I am pretty sure the Dutch would be over the moon for HM to attend the 65th Anniversary of Market Garden. They have slightly more humility, a better recall of history and an generally respectful outlook.
You may even persuade some of the vets to jump once more. Downing St could be the key objective in the current battle to save the UK from the dark forces of tyranny. Who knows, the Ghurkas may join the fray.
MGD
What about the Canadians?
May I also add my thanks and admiration for your remarks Deifpil - you have single handedly done much to restore Franco-British relations, on this site at least. And while we are on the subject , I would assure you that few Brits see the Mers el Kebir tragedy as anything to joke about. I think the Royal Navy saw it as a distasteful action which had to be done in the circumstances at the time, but I doubt if they took any pride in it.
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Deifpil
Merci beaucoups, vous êtes très aimable, bon chance monsieur.
Having recently lived in France for 18 months, I never met anything but deep gratitude and respect from the French people.
I feel that any Franco-bashing is as inappropriate as blaming all Brits for what the government has managed to enmesh us in.
I think our French gentleman has been very gracious and I thank him accordingly.
Having recently lived in France for 18 months, I never met anything but deep gratitude and respect from the French people.
I feel that any Franco-bashing is as inappropriate as blaming all Brits for what the government has managed to enmesh us in.
I think our French gentleman has been very gracious and I thank him accordingly.
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MGD
Agreed, although may I make one or two revisions to your post please?
You seem to have missed out their cracking sense of humour.
Whilst me and the present Mrs Flash were enjoying a long weekend in Haarlem in the late 80's I became very aware of Operation Manna. The look in an old Cloggy's eyes said it all really, and we couldn't buy a beer all night. They hadn't forgotten. Despite the best efforts of politicians, friends will allways be friends.
Agreed, although may I make one or two revisions to your post please?
I am pretty sure the Dutch would be over the moon for HM to attend the 65th Anniversary of Market Garden. They have great humility, a perfect recall of history and an extremely respectful outlook.
Whilst me and the present Mrs Flash were enjoying a long weekend in Haarlem in the late 80's I became very aware of Operation Manna. The look in an old Cloggy's eyes said it all really, and we couldn't buy a beer all night. They hadn't forgotten. Despite the best efforts of politicians, friends will allways be friends.
Last edited by Green Flash; 28th May 2009 at 20:45.
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HM the Queen has every right to attend the D-Day commemorations as She was a Serving Member of the Armed forces of the UK, as was her Husband, at the time of the Invasion of Normandy.
What are the Military Qualifications of the 2 Presidents?
What are the Military Qualifications of the 2 Presidents?
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the 2 présidents have no military qualification, but I think they were elected by their respective people, so....and I think they are chief of their respective army
some english people on this forum are saying thinks on french président that deserve all english....
some english people on this forum are saying thinks on french président that deserve all english....
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respect where respect is due I am not a great lover of the French but this story should be told.
L'histoire du maquis de nistos esparros
Operation Pic de Douley 2/3 July 2004
L'histoire du maquis de nistos esparros
Operation Pic de Douley 2/3 July 2004
Last edited by gar170; 29th May 2009 at 09:58. Reason: add link
I can't see how it is "primarily" an American event. Sure the US played a key part and took considerable losses, and President Obama is certainly welcome to come and represent them. But the British and Canadian forces (remember The Queen is head of state of both countries) deployed more men on D-Day, and over the whole campaign took many more casualties than the USA.
If the British government, who should have organised everything, has messed this up, then it does seem time for The Queen to take Brown to one side and say : "Look, you've hacked all the rest of the country off with your various stupidities, now you've hacked me off. Push off".
If the British government, who should have organised everything, has messed this up, then it does seem time for The Queen to take Brown to one side and say : "Look, you've hacked all the rest of the country off with your various stupidities, now you've hacked me off. Push off".
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Why go to France at all. We should stick our fingers up at them and have events along the south coast to remember our troops. They were of course all alive when they left these shores.
minigundiplomat,
being Greek I am out of this argument but I did find this quote interesting. I'm sure the 'others' are effectively the waffen-SS divisions that fought in Normandy. I recently finished part 1 of the book on the history of the 12th SS by Hubert Meyer who was the Adjustant then CO of the 12th Hitlerjugend SS division. You have to credit the man for a very comprehensive historical work if, therefore, a dry account of events even though he was at the forefront of events himself throughout the war in the West!! He does seem to sweep under the carpet the matter of atrocities committed by his troops however.
I wonder were these troops distasteful and hated for attrocities committed on the Brits (since I think the atrocities committed by 12th SS in Normandy were a few instance on Canadian POWs) or did the rumour of atrocities spread quickly though the allies and therefore made the SS troopers a hated sight? From the picture one gets from the book they were exceptionally determined, very well trained and very well led by veterans of 1 LSSAH who were the leadership cadre of the division which is what set back the allied plan for an advance to Paris after a couple of days by about 1.5 months.
My grandfather arrived in Normandy in the early hours of 6th June 1944. Funnily enough, after the war he maintained a grudging respect for the Germans (Normal Wermacht, not the others), but couldnt stand the French.
I wonder were these troops distasteful and hated for attrocities committed on the Brits (since I think the atrocities committed by 12th SS in Normandy were a few instance on Canadian POWs) or did the rumour of atrocities spread quickly though the allies and therefore made the SS troopers a hated sight? From the picture one gets from the book they were exceptionally determined, very well trained and very well led by veterans of 1 LSSAH who were the leadership cadre of the division which is what set back the allied plan for an advance to Paris after a couple of days by about 1.5 months.
minigundiplomat,
Quote:
My grandfather arrived in Normandy in the early hours of 6th June 1944. Funnily enough, after the war he maintained a grudging respect for the Germans (Normal Wermacht, not the others), but couldnt stand the French.
being Greek I am out of this argument but I did find this quote interesting. I'm sure the 'others' are effectively the waffen-SS divisions that fought in Normandy. I recently finished part 1 of the book on the history of the 12th SS by Hubert Meyer who was the Adjustant then CO of the 12th Hitlerjugend SS division. You have to credit the man for a very comprehensive historical work if, therefore, a dry account of events even though he was at the forefront of events himself throughout the war in the West!! He does seem to sweep under the carpet the matter of atrocities committed by his troops however.
I wonder were these troops distasteful and hated for attrocities committed on the Brits (since I think the atrocities committed by 12th SS in Normandy were a few instance on Canadian POWs) or did the rumour of atrocities spread quickly though the allies and therefore made the SS troopers a hated sight? From the picture one gets from the book they were exceptionally determined, very well trained and very well led by veterans of 1 LSSAH who were the leadership cadre of the division which is what set back the allied plan for an advance to Paris after a couple of days by about 1.5 months.
Quote:
My grandfather arrived in Normandy in the early hours of 6th June 1944. Funnily enough, after the war he maintained a grudging respect for the Germans (Normal Wermacht, not the others), but couldnt stand the French.
being Greek I am out of this argument but I did find this quote interesting. I'm sure the 'others' are effectively the waffen-SS divisions that fought in Normandy. I recently finished part 1 of the book on the history of the 12th SS by Hubert Meyer who was the Adjustant then CO of the 12th Hitlerjugend SS division. You have to credit the man for a very comprehensive historical work if, therefore, a dry account of events even though he was at the forefront of events himself throughout the war in the West!! He does seem to sweep under the carpet the matter of atrocities committed by his troops however.
I wonder were these troops distasteful and hated for attrocities committed on the Brits (since I think the atrocities committed by 12th SS in Normandy were a few instance on Canadian POWs) or did the rumour of atrocities spread quickly though the allies and therefore made the SS troopers a hated sight? From the picture one gets from the book they were exceptionally determined, very well trained and very well led by veterans of 1 LSSAH who were the leadership cadre of the division which is what set back the allied plan for an advance to Paris after a couple of days by about 1.5 months.
Alas, he is no longer with us and so I can't ask him to expand, but it seems that the majority of his experiences with the Germans were of a conventional infantry nature involving the average 'Jerry'. he never mentioned the SS but hated the Nazis, always noting the difference between them and the average German soldier. I am pretty sure his opinion of the french was formed 1944-45, though it stayed with him for the rest of his life.
Green Flash:
I had the privilege in the early 70's to do the commemorative drop of one stick of the Paras onto the Arnhem DZ. Bloody great piece of heathland real estate entirely populated by Dutch civilians out to pay homage to the memory of those who fought and died in and around their town. They very considerately left a postage stamp square of a DZ for the Nav to aim at. Fortunately his aim was good, the drop declared a success and the crew invited out to sample the hospitality of the Dutch Air Force. The rest remains a bit of a blur...
As you say remembrance is strong in their culture and religiously passed down the generations. I have no such impression of French National remembrance of any other than their own, but accept of course that Regions and individuals often conflict with such a sweeping judgement, eg Diefpil. Well said Sir!
The look in an old Cloggy's eyes said it all really, and we couldn't buy a beer all night.
As you say remembrance is strong in their culture and religiously passed down the generations. I have no such impression of French National remembrance of any other than their own, but accept of course that Regions and individuals often conflict with such a sweeping judgement, eg Diefpil. Well said Sir!
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Looking at the progress of this thread the principal issues seem centered around the relationship of these facts: (1) the Sarkozy office's arrogance with 'This is very much a Franco-American occasion'; (2) the disposition of the invasion forces was 73,00 American and over 83,00 British and Canadian and (3) Brown's weakness before his Franco-American counterparts.
Kev - I think they said 'primarily' rather than 'very much'. That may seem mere semantics, but makes a difference. The former is nothing more than a statement of fact which refers to the commemorations rather than representing a view that the Normandy campaign was primarily a Franco-American affair.
The government (ours) decided that it would not participate fully in the 65th anniversary ceremonies, which meant that the events would have been an entirely Franco-American affair (in the sense of official representation) until events overtook HMG.
It appears that the PM said in March that he would attend a commemoration at Caen in a bit of a climb-down from the original 'no official recognition' position:
Link
Note that the PM's spokesman thought only in terms of heads of government, rather than heads of state - one suspects that the French assumed that the invitation they despatched would see HMQ appear, representing the UK and Canada (and the Aussies and Kiwis who participated in the air aspects of the Normandy campaign) as you get four heads of state in one with that invitation.
I would go so far as to suggest that the French are probably rather horrified at the fact that the inept handling of the invitation means that we have two heads of state and a head of government (who may wish to be out of the country on 5th June...) leaving one key nation in the invasion force with no head of state/head of govt representation at all...
The Mail's usual eagerness to have a pop at our cross channel neighbours has, I would contend, let Mr Brown somewhat off the hook since it seems most probable that no snub was intended. In that scenario, this farago is all down to the failure (unwillingness??) in Downing Street to comprehend that while Messrs Sarkozy and Obama are both heads of state and of government, Mr Brown is not, and someone in his organisation should've ensured that HMQ was at least asked if she wished to go.
The government (ours) decided that it would not participate fully in the 65th anniversary ceremonies, which meant that the events would have been an entirely Franco-American affair (in the sense of official representation) until events overtook HMG.
It appears that the PM said in March that he would attend a commemoration at Caen in a bit of a climb-down from the original 'no official recognition' position:
Link
Note that the PM's spokesman thought only in terms of heads of government, rather than heads of state - one suspects that the French assumed that the invitation they despatched would see HMQ appear, representing the UK and Canada (and the Aussies and Kiwis who participated in the air aspects of the Normandy campaign) as you get four heads of state in one with that invitation.
I would go so far as to suggest that the French are probably rather horrified at the fact that the inept handling of the invitation means that we have two heads of state and a head of government (who may wish to be out of the country on 5th June...) leaving one key nation in the invasion force with no head of state/head of govt representation at all...
The Mail's usual eagerness to have a pop at our cross channel neighbours has, I would contend, let Mr Brown somewhat off the hook since it seems most probable that no snub was intended. In that scenario, this farago is all down to the failure (unwillingness??) in Downing Street to comprehend that while Messrs Sarkozy and Obama are both heads of state and of government, Mr Brown is not, and someone in his organisation should've ensured that HMQ was at least asked if she wished to go.
The thick plottens
BBC NEWS | UK | Obama 'wants Queen D-Day invite'
What's that expression..? If you're in a hole, stop digging..
It rumbles on..
On Sunday Gordon Brown said the event was intended for prime ministers and presidents, rather than royals.
It rumbles on..
That fool Brown is no doubt hoping that he will be able to scuttle off to France and keep his head down, so won't be around to answer all the demands for him to call a General Election after he and his cronies receive a monumental ar$e-kicking from the electorate in the local and European Parliament elections on Thursday.
His latest pompous utterances over the D-day commemoration merely serve to confirm what an abysmal 'leader' he truly is. Candidate for the 'JCB trophy' for digging himself the biggest hole of the year?
America's elected black president is a far better statesman than the UK's unelected brown prime minister!
His latest pompous utterances over the D-day commemoration merely serve to confirm what an abysmal 'leader' he truly is. Candidate for the 'JCB trophy' for digging himself the biggest hole of the year?
America's elected black president is a far better statesman than the UK's unelected brown prime minister!
Last edited by BEagle; 2nd Jun 2009 at 11:49.
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To watch Broon's pronouncment, on the Andrew Marr programme on Sunday, that 'If the Queen wished to go, that he would make certain she could' made my blood boil.
A cheap and tawdry attempt to put HM in a hole. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.
A cheap and tawdry attempt to put HM in a hole. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.