UK at risk from sea-borne attack, says Commons Defence Ctee
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nurse, you may be suprised to know that at one time a secondary war role for officers such as my self was to be a Customs Officer.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ENGLAND
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heres a thought,
There are three fixed wing CG assetts employed solely on single taskings. They are not multi role.
They are all different aircraft.
If we standardise to one aircraft, -the F406- equip as per greek marpol F406 with a dinghy drop capability we solve maritime pollution control, SAR/SAL and surveillance all in one go. Beech King Air would do just as well.
Why don't we do that before some dissaffected individuals drive an LPG carrier up the thames and blow it up, -during the olympics?
Well you'll have to ask the CEO of the MCA whose more interested in trying to merge CG aircraft into fisheries aircraft and 'save money' rather than considr the security and integrity of this nation.
There are three fixed wing CG assetts employed solely on single taskings. They are not multi role.
They are all different aircraft.
If we standardise to one aircraft, -the F406- equip as per greek marpol F406 with a dinghy drop capability we solve maritime pollution control, SAR/SAL and surveillance all in one go. Beech King Air would do just as well.
Why don't we do that before some dissaffected individuals drive an LPG carrier up the thames and blow it up, -during the olympics?
Well you'll have to ask the CEO of the MCA whose more interested in trying to merge CG aircraft into fisheries aircraft and 'save money' rather than considr the security and integrity of this nation.
Sadly the RN declined to take on the constabulary function a long time ago. Presumably ASW & Carriers (even Invincible Class ones) are sexier. Shades of the Convoy escort Vs Battleship debate of WW1 & 2.
No one is considering the consolidated maritime picture around the UK & responsibility is split between Customs, Police, Coastguard etc etc. Its a shambles. And to anyone who thinks that a terrorist won't try to hit a ship with a RIB full of explsives I would point out that the USS Stark was victim to such an attack a few years ago. I doubt that many people really thought that terrorists would fly 3 airliners into major US landmarks either but they did. TBH I'm surprised that a maritime attack of a tanker or ferry hasn't happened already.
No one is considering the consolidated maritime picture around the UK & responsibility is split between Customs, Police, Coastguard etc etc. Its a shambles. And to anyone who thinks that a terrorist won't try to hit a ship with a RIB full of explsives I would point out that the USS Stark was victim to such an attack a few years ago. I doubt that many people really thought that terrorists would fly 3 airliners into major US landmarks either but they did. TBH I'm surprised that a maritime attack of a tanker or ferry hasn't happened already.
Not deliberately being pedantic, but it was the USS Cole that was attacked by a boat loaded with explosives...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
The USS Stark was hit by Exocets in 1987!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
The USS Stark was hit by Exocets in 1987!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 2 m South of Radstock VRP
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
andyy. I think you will find that "the RN declined to take on the constabulary function" because no funding was to be provided for it. It would indeed have taken funds away from core tasks. If I remember rightly, funds for Aid to the Civil Power were removed many years ago. This is not to be confused with the wider Military Aid to the Civil Authority.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: firmly on dry land
Age: 81
Posts: 1,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is much uninformed theories about the risk from an LPG or LNG tanker being blown up. The link below, and the extract, tell a different story. A friend of mine was on the golf course at Aberdeen when he was called to deal with the Rosandra at Brindisi.
April 1990 .
Val Rosandra
The vessel, a 2999 m3 semi . pressurised LPG carrier with cylindrical tanks was discharging propylene at Brindisi when a fire started between the compressor house and No.3 tank. The vessel was towed out to sea with No.3 tank dome burning. This continued to burn for a further 22 days after which explosive charges were laid to breach the domes
of the four remaining tanks and allow the gas to burn off. This situation continued for a further 16 days until the vessel was scuttled.
As the gas vapourised it would torch in the atmosphere, consume the local oxygen, and extinguish. More gas would vaporised from the heat and the process continued.
http://www.sjofartsverket.se/upload/4001/77-INF2.pdf
As the gas vapourised it would torch in the atmosphere, consume the local oxygen, and extinguish. More gas would vaporised from the heat and the process continued.
http://www.sjofartsverket.se/upload/4001/77-INF2.pdf
This does beg the question "by whom?". I struggle to think of any nation which has a beef with the UK and a sufficiently capable naval fleet to be able to mount a seaborne attack. As for a terrorist attack, well, we could have a fleet the size of the yanks and you could still wouldn't be able to protect all of our coast all of the time. Sounds to me this is the kind of 'issue' posed by a group of MPs with a bit too much time on their hands.
Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned the 4th emergency service (no, not the AA) the Coastguard? They've got air & sea assets which could be armed in extremis. I'm sure you could dangle an Exocet or two off their shiny new AW139s.
Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned the 4th emergency service (no, not the AA) the Coastguard? They've got air & sea assets which could be armed in extremis. I'm sure you could dangle an Exocet or two off their shiny new AW139s.
GBZ, you may be right about the funding issue, I am not sure, but that seems to be just typical of the politicians - define a requirement and then not fund it. True of all aspects of defence at the minute. Still, the Coastguard, various Police Forces, Fisheries Protection and Customs have funding, so surely that funding should have been transferred to the RN/ RAF for the maritime constabulary tasks.
Let’s hope they don’t choose Bexhill beach for their landing. Sightings of a few Mersey Goldfish close to the gunwales should deter any self respecting terrorist from storming the beach. 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coastguard
Until a few years ago, the UK Coastguard had manned lookouts, little more than huts, dotted around the coastline keeping a visual lookout, for people in trouble or smugglers.
These were abandoned as a cost cutting measure in favour of a few shiny co-ordinating stations, with all the whistles & bells.
This of course means that to get into trouble one must first have at least a VHF radio.
Re-manning these lookouts with auxillary staff, day & night with NVG's etc, would not only save lives ( both at sea and at cliffs etc ) but would be a very handy layer of defence, for relative peanuts.
I always thought that on the life-saving issue alone the decision to bin the lookouts was criminal, now we have drug smugglers & terrorists doubly so.
These were abandoned as a cost cutting measure in favour of a few shiny co-ordinating stations, with all the whistles & bells.
This of course means that to get into trouble one must first have at least a VHF radio.
Re-manning these lookouts with auxillary staff, day & night with NVG's etc, would not only save lives ( both at sea and at cliffs etc ) but would be a very handy layer of defence, for relative peanuts.
I always thought that on the life-saving issue alone the decision to bin the lookouts was criminal, now we have drug smugglers & terrorists doubly so.
dead pan
The AW139 has not been cleared for guided weapons let alone tested with any. I doubt an Exocet could fit on. Only helis I have seen with Exocet has been Qatar Sea King, Aeronavale Super Frelon and AS-332L/532 . In terms of armament I have seen on an AW139 has been the GPMG yes as in variants for the Irish Air Corps. The proposed complete military version the AW149, has not been developed yet (barring saw mock up in Paris Airshow 2001
)
The AW139 has not been cleared for guided weapons let alone tested with any. I doubt an Exocet could fit on. Only helis I have seen with Exocet has been Qatar Sea King, Aeronavale Super Frelon and AS-332L/532 . In terms of armament I have seen on an AW139 has been the GPMG yes as in variants for the Irish Air Corps. The proposed complete military version the AW149, has not been developed yet (barring saw mock up in Paris Airshow 2001
)
Dead Pan. Also remember, its not just about having assests, you need to have a consolidated picture of what is going on; a way of fusing intelligence and co-ordinating activity. Thats a big committment, but its one that the military are used to delivering. The issue, as mentioned earlier, is how its funded & resourced.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SE Spain
Age: 77
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would appear that the Security Committee for the Olympics has been told, Times report 24th May 2009 In the Thames Estuary the RN will moor a Type 45 Destroyer.
"Super-destroyer to guard 2012 Games. The navy is set to deploy its most advanced weapons against any 9/11-style attack"
It was later released and printed in the Times
"A military official said two Tornado GR4 fighter aircraft were on permanent standby at RAF Marham near King’s Lynn in Norfolk to launch at 15 minutes’ notice."
I have posed these two thoughts, not with standing the problems of taking a flying bomb down over Central London, no serious answer has yet come to the surface.
1. There is no doubt that the Type 45's missiles, Aster 30, has the range and ability to shoot down the a/c in question, but does the Combat Control System fitted have the ability to track and identify a small or medium size a/c over a built up area, with the aircraft possibly flying below the level of the many high rise buildings found in that area of Greater London and to also sort out friend from foe. As it was found in the Falklands radar designed to efficiently identify and track targets over water was found to be wanting when the a/c were over land and flying low.
Remember also the Met Pol Helicopter Base is in Epping Forest at Lippets Hill and just about all their flights will transit over the Olympic site, thats before civil flights into City and LHR plus VIP and military helo's are added to the mix. Which Warfare Officer is going to take out Sir Alan Sugar as he is filming another series of "the Apprentice.
Is Samson etc up to the task?
The the RAF contrinution to this defence project.
So if we assume that the target a/c is a jet at 400 mph and approaches from any direction than Norfolk where he has been told a RAF FJ is on standby.The RAF take 15 minutes to get into the air and 8 minutes to cover the ground to Hackney our target has moved on 150 miles approx from time to scramble given.
So the plan is we fly a smallish jet at 400 mph from Southampton area as low as possible using Gatwick as its turning point.
Not so hard if we can keep it a secret we will be downed before the RAF do it for us.
BobH
"Super-destroyer to guard 2012 Games. The navy is set to deploy its most advanced weapons against any 9/11-style attack"
It was later released and printed in the Times
"A military official said two Tornado GR4 fighter aircraft were on permanent standby at RAF Marham near King’s Lynn in Norfolk to launch at 15 minutes’ notice."
I have posed these two thoughts, not with standing the problems of taking a flying bomb down over Central London, no serious answer has yet come to the surface.
1. There is no doubt that the Type 45's missiles, Aster 30, has the range and ability to shoot down the a/c in question, but does the Combat Control System fitted have the ability to track and identify a small or medium size a/c over a built up area, with the aircraft possibly flying below the level of the many high rise buildings found in that area of Greater London and to also sort out friend from foe. As it was found in the Falklands radar designed to efficiently identify and track targets over water was found to be wanting when the a/c were over land and flying low.
Remember also the Met Pol Helicopter Base is in Epping Forest at Lippets Hill and just about all their flights will transit over the Olympic site, thats before civil flights into City and LHR plus VIP and military helo's are added to the mix. Which Warfare Officer is going to take out Sir Alan Sugar as he is filming another series of "the Apprentice.
Is Samson etc up to the task?
The the RAF contrinution to this defence project.
So if we assume that the target a/c is a jet at 400 mph and approaches from any direction than Norfolk where he has been told a RAF FJ is on standby.The RAF take 15 minutes to get into the air and 8 minutes to cover the ground to Hackney our target has moved on 150 miles approx from time to scramble given.
So the plan is we fly a smallish jet at 400 mph from Southampton area as low as possible using Gatwick as its turning point.
Not so hard if we can keep it a secret we will be downed before the RAF do it for us.
BobH
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 2 m South of Radstock VRP
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
andyy. The funding aspect is central to this. For ad hoc MACA and MACP, JSP368 is applicable, particularly Ch 4, Annex 4.6, starting at Para 5. It becomes complicated, though, if the task requires additional material assets and/or manpower. The proposed coastal defence task would, indeed, require additional assets and the funds would be needed “up front”.
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/607E2..._repayment.pdf
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/607E2..._repayment.pdf
Red On, Green On
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
So the plan is we fly a smallish jet at 400 mph from Southampton area as low as possible using Gatwick as its turning point.
We did lots of these type of scenarios in the late 70s and early 80s in a certain green outfit. Rarely did we fail to get onto the target with enough "stuff" to knock out an essential component, and we'd only done the most cursory of recces. Google Earth, some good quality camera-work and plenty of ground recce and unless you have the Brigade of Guards standing shoulder to shoulder all round the target you'll still get in. Even then a few flexwing microlights would do the job, especially at night.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SE Spain
Age: 77
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A-A
I have no doubt you did and my comments were made tounge in cheek as our Pollies, Civil Serpents and * Officers seem to talk the talk when they cannot walk the walk.
Why not just say its impossible.
BobH:
I have no doubt you did and my comments were made tounge in cheek as our Pollies, Civil Serpents and * Officers seem to talk the talk when they cannot walk the walk.
Why not just say its impossible.BobH:
Referring to 2012, hope they'll consider AD assets such asTyphoon Tranche 3 on QRA, as what the Italians did during the winter olympics, where there was all the rotary and fixxed wing assets of the Guardia di Finanza, carabinieri, Polizia de Stato, plus think Sentry from Waddington (?),AMI, Marina and Esercito including first CAP for the Eurofighter. Oh and don't forget an orbiting satellite dedicated to surveillance.
Thats a point why the GR4? I suppose with the self defence AIM-9L or if they be equipped with ASRAAM, then some limited CAP capability.
Oh and don't forget an orbiting satellite dedicated to surveillance.Thats a point why the GR4? I suppose with the self defence AIM-9L or if they be equipped with ASRAAM, then some limited CAP capability.
Red On, Green On
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Why not just say its impossible.