UK at risk from sea-borne attack, says Commons Defence Ctee
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Will the Type 45 even have missiles by then ? And a very good point that if it uses them it achieves pretty much the same as a suicidal airliner, or may even increase the effect of a smaller aircraft, so exactly what is the point ?
The cynical side of me can't help thinking the Thames has become the place of choice for cocktail parties for ' big do's '...if it was anchored somewhere further out it might be useful, but that would be inconvenient.
The cynical side of me can't help thinking the Thames has become the place of choice for cocktail parties for ' big do's '...if it was anchored somewhere further out it might be useful, but that would be inconvenient.
The ongoing drama regarding the MV Arctic Sea seems like a reasonable reason for looking at this thread again. The issues discussed here were mentioned before on PPRune (here for instance) as well on other sites - like here on ARRSE.
I also wondered if that report has anything to do with the olympics, or the proposed changes to naval bases (moving the bulk of the fleet to the smaller and less secure of the South coast bases). A few responses to earlier comments...
Firstly by Pontious Navigator:
Interesting. I attended a security briefing two weeks back. Quite boring until they started passing out IEDs. However their view, it was at a local sea port, was that the maritime threat to the UK was next to non-existent. They rejected the idea that a ship might be hijacked, equipped as a bomb, and then driven into a port.
Next to non existant doesn't mean non existent.
They also suggested that Arabs would get sea sick and be unable to sail a ship from the Indian Ocean. I, and a number of port maritime officials were greatly reassured by the brief.
What about merchant seamen from Arab nations? Do they get so sea sick they can't function?
doubledolphins:
Speaking from recent bitter experience I find it terribly sad that our once proud naval reserve is now nothing more than a suport organisation for the Royal Marines when deployed overseas. I know at least one senior officer who is trying to get a maritime element back into the Maritime Reserves but I fear the case is lost.
Yes there's nothing less maritime than deploying aboard a ship to defend her from (mainly) waterborne threats, in support of current operations.
This is a crying shame because coastal forces and seaward defence would be an ideal activity for the RNR. As it once was in the past for our predicessors. The Sea Fencibles, The RNAV and the RNVR. (Not to forget the RNXS, bless them!)
Perhaps, but we're meant to be one Navy now...
Nurse:
Not only the danger of terrorists blowing up a tanker but the UK coastline is ideal for smuggling as well not only terrorists items like weapons and explosives but crime related smuggling is also a threat to our society like Drugs and people.
I do sometime wonder if a proper paramilitary border protection service would be a better option than the myriad of different services providing the current patchy service.
I think the police are in charge up to the 12nm limit, I'll mention this more later.
andyy:
Sadly the RN declined to take on the constabulary function a long time ago. Presumably ASW & Carriers (even Invincible Class ones) are sexier. Shades of the Convoy escort Vs Battleship debate of WW1 & 2.
The RN's job is to operate worldwide, not just within home waters. That takes it into places where there is a real threat.
No one is considering the consolidated maritime picture around the UK & responsibility is split between Customs, Police, Coastguard etc etc. Its a shambles. And to anyone who thinks that a terrorist won't try to hit a ship with a RIB full of explsives I would point out that the USS Stark was victim to such an attack a few years ago. I doubt that many people really thought that terrorists would fly 3 airliners into major US landmarks either but they did. TBH I'm surprised that a maritime attack of a tanker or ferry hasn't happened already.
I believe you were referring to the attack against the USS Cole. This, like the attack against the French oil tanker Limburg took place in the Middle East. Terrorists will find it hard to launch small boat attacks from the shores of a Western nation without giving the game away.
dead pan:
Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned the 4th emergency service (no, not the AA) the Coastguard? They've got air & sea assets which could be armed in extremis. I'm sure you could dangle an Exocet or two off their shiny new AW139s.
Aren't the Coastguard mostly a rescue/safety organisation? Does this threat really demand anti ship missiles.
andyy:
GBZ, you may be right about the funding issue, I am not sure, but that seems to be just typical of the politicians - define a requirement and then not fund it. True of all aspects of defence at the minute. Still, the Coastguard, various Police Forces, Fisheries Protection and Customs have funding, so surely that funding should have been transferred to the RN/ RAF for the maritime constabulary tasks.
Can (or should) the RN/RAF perform the law enforcement tasks of the Police and Customs, and the rescue roles of the Coastguard?
My own views....
1. The threat that terrorists pose is real. However, I think it is safe to say that the threat of maritime terrorism is far more of an issue for deployed forces than in UK waters. Terrorists need opportunity, capability and intent. terrorist cell attempting to acquire a boast, reece targets, and build a bomb would attract the attention of the police and intelligence services.
2. The doomsday scenario discussed by some, where terrorists seize and large vessel and either use the vessel as a weapon platform or as a weapon can only be dealt with by the intelligence services and the big boys, in other words well away from the UK. A fast boat with a GPMG won't do any good, these sort of threats would demand frigates, submarines, Nimrods and Special Forces.
3. Increasing the number of patrol vessels would help, but you still would have the problem of being in the right place at the right time. The UK has something like 10 000 miles of coast. There's another issue - the law. The RN Fishery Protection Squadron are legally authorised to conduct boardings on Fishing Vessels within the UK EEZ. Can they board or investigate other nefarious activity outside of the 12nm limit, ie, in international waters? Can they do this within the 12nm limit, or does Police primacy mean the local Police force is in charge?
4. The UK police force with the largest number of launches, RIBs etc is of course the MOD Police, who escort warships and RFAs in and out or harbour, and perform patrols (sometimes assisting other police forces). Does this role need to be extended for all major ports? Do they need to be armed? Should every major port have a version of the Gibraltar Squadron? How would that work with Police primacy?
5. A few armed helicopters (RN Lynx with 0.50 Cal HMG perhaps) located near major ports might be a better solution (can move faster and no issues with Police primacy), and could do a SAR role when dedicated SAR helicopters become a rarity in the next decade. But where would we get the extra aircraft and personnel from?
6. The main issue, in my view, is that there is no single agency in charge of maintaining the integrity and security of UK waters. Everyone follows at their bit of the jigsaw, but nobody keeps an eye on the whole puzzle....
I also wondered if that report has anything to do with the olympics, or the proposed changes to naval bases (moving the bulk of the fleet to the smaller and less secure of the South coast bases). A few responses to earlier comments...
Firstly by Pontious Navigator:
Interesting. I attended a security briefing two weeks back. Quite boring until they started passing out IEDs. However their view, it was at a local sea port, was that the maritime threat to the UK was next to non-existent. They rejected the idea that a ship might be hijacked, equipped as a bomb, and then driven into a port.
Next to non existant doesn't mean non existent.
They also suggested that Arabs would get sea sick and be unable to sail a ship from the Indian Ocean. I, and a number of port maritime officials were greatly reassured by the brief.
What about merchant seamen from Arab nations? Do they get so sea sick they can't function?
doubledolphins:
Speaking from recent bitter experience I find it terribly sad that our once proud naval reserve is now nothing more than a suport organisation for the Royal Marines when deployed overseas. I know at least one senior officer who is trying to get a maritime element back into the Maritime Reserves but I fear the case is lost.
Yes there's nothing less maritime than deploying aboard a ship to defend her from (mainly) waterborne threats, in support of current operations.
This is a crying shame because coastal forces and seaward defence would be an ideal activity for the RNR. As it once was in the past for our predicessors. The Sea Fencibles, The RNAV and the RNVR. (Not to forget the RNXS, bless them!)
Perhaps, but we're meant to be one Navy now...
Nurse:
Not only the danger of terrorists blowing up a tanker but the UK coastline is ideal for smuggling as well not only terrorists items like weapons and explosives but crime related smuggling is also a threat to our society like Drugs and people.
I do sometime wonder if a proper paramilitary border protection service would be a better option than the myriad of different services providing the current patchy service.
I think the police are in charge up to the 12nm limit, I'll mention this more later.
andyy:
Sadly the RN declined to take on the constabulary function a long time ago. Presumably ASW & Carriers (even Invincible Class ones) are sexier. Shades of the Convoy escort Vs Battleship debate of WW1 & 2.
The RN's job is to operate worldwide, not just within home waters. That takes it into places where there is a real threat.
No one is considering the consolidated maritime picture around the UK & responsibility is split between Customs, Police, Coastguard etc etc. Its a shambles. And to anyone who thinks that a terrorist won't try to hit a ship with a RIB full of explsives I would point out that the USS Stark was victim to such an attack a few years ago. I doubt that many people really thought that terrorists would fly 3 airliners into major US landmarks either but they did. TBH I'm surprised that a maritime attack of a tanker or ferry hasn't happened already.
I believe you were referring to the attack against the USS Cole. This, like the attack against the French oil tanker Limburg took place in the Middle East. Terrorists will find it hard to launch small boat attacks from the shores of a Western nation without giving the game away.
dead pan:
Also, why hasn't anyone mentioned the 4th emergency service (no, not the AA) the Coastguard? They've got air & sea assets which could be armed in extremis. I'm sure you could dangle an Exocet or two off their shiny new AW139s.
Aren't the Coastguard mostly a rescue/safety organisation? Does this threat really demand anti ship missiles.
andyy:
GBZ, you may be right about the funding issue, I am not sure, but that seems to be just typical of the politicians - define a requirement and then not fund it. True of all aspects of defence at the minute. Still, the Coastguard, various Police Forces, Fisheries Protection and Customs have funding, so surely that funding should have been transferred to the RN/ RAF for the maritime constabulary tasks.
Can (or should) the RN/RAF perform the law enforcement tasks of the Police and Customs, and the rescue roles of the Coastguard?
My own views....
1. The threat that terrorists pose is real. However, I think it is safe to say that the threat of maritime terrorism is far more of an issue for deployed forces than in UK waters. Terrorists need opportunity, capability and intent. terrorist cell attempting to acquire a boast, reece targets, and build a bomb would attract the attention of the police and intelligence services.
2. The doomsday scenario discussed by some, where terrorists seize and large vessel and either use the vessel as a weapon platform or as a weapon can only be dealt with by the intelligence services and the big boys, in other words well away from the UK. A fast boat with a GPMG won't do any good, these sort of threats would demand frigates, submarines, Nimrods and Special Forces.
3. Increasing the number of patrol vessels would help, but you still would have the problem of being in the right place at the right time. The UK has something like 10 000 miles of coast. There's another issue - the law. The RN Fishery Protection Squadron are legally authorised to conduct boardings on Fishing Vessels within the UK EEZ. Can they board or investigate other nefarious activity outside of the 12nm limit, ie, in international waters? Can they do this within the 12nm limit, or does Police primacy mean the local Police force is in charge?
4. The UK police force with the largest number of launches, RIBs etc is of course the MOD Police, who escort warships and RFAs in and out or harbour, and perform patrols (sometimes assisting other police forces). Does this role need to be extended for all major ports? Do they need to be armed? Should every major port have a version of the Gibraltar Squadron? How would that work with Police primacy?
5. A few armed helicopters (RN Lynx with 0.50 Cal HMG perhaps) located near major ports might be a better solution (can move faster and no issues with Police primacy), and could do a SAR role when dedicated SAR helicopters become a rarity in the next decade. But where would we get the extra aircraft and personnel from?
6. The main issue, in my view, is that there is no single agency in charge of maintaining the integrity and security of UK waters. Everyone follows at their bit of the jigsaw, but nobody keeps an eye on the whole puzzle....
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 15th Aug 2009 at 22:36.
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You raise an interesting point wth regards to the Police/Military link. From my experience (so far) as a soldier, when on exercises designed to help train us for the 'aid to the civil power' role that the TA undertakes, the Police neither understand the rank and force structure, or our capabilities, and any such exercise generally degenerates into a bit of a mess.
For us to have any great influence over out coastal regions, the Police and Military need to have far greater intergration and understanding between the services - either that or the Police accept that their jurisdiction ends as soon as the land stops, and that anything futher is the responsibility of the Navy, or some other organisation - MOD police perhaps as you suggest.
For us to have any great influence over out coastal regions, the Police and Military need to have far greater intergration and understanding between the services - either that or the Police accept that their jurisdiction ends as soon as the land stops, and that anything futher is the responsibility of the Navy, or some other organisation - MOD police perhaps as you suggest.
This article suggests that not all our convinced current Police structures are suitable for dealing with terrorism.
The UK's current police structures for tackling terrorism have evolved from an outdated arrangement and are not appropriate to deal with the escalating threat from international terrorism. The excellent results being recorded in recent terrorism trials have been achieved in spite of the structural and operational confines.
It is inconceivable that if we were able to construct, on a blank piece of paper, an appropriate structure to deal with the threat of Al Qaeda, the current arrangement of collaboration between 43 forces would be the answer. Actually, our inability to break away from our current structure is probably playing more into the hands of terrorist groups than helping law enforcement thwart an attack.
Yeoman_dai
The trouble is waters up to the 12nm limit count as part of the UK, and the local Police force is the primary law enforcement agency. This is really the point here, nobody is in overall charge of maintaining security of the UK coast as a whole.
Most Police forces do their best. Devon and Cornwall Police are asking people to report suspicious waterborne activity. All sorts of RIBs, launches and converted lifeboats are used by Police forces but they have an obvious problem, that is, they are unarmed. They could carry firearms teams but what if the threat demands platform mounted weapons such as the GPMG? I am unaware of any GPMGs, Miniguns or cannon in UK Police use (with the exception of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary who operate 30mm cannon aboard the ships used for transporting Plutonium), therefore it will come down to the RN and other services "aiding the civil power".
The UK's current police structures for tackling terrorism have evolved from an outdated arrangement and are not appropriate to deal with the escalating threat from international terrorism. The excellent results being recorded in recent terrorism trials have been achieved in spite of the structural and operational confines.
It is inconceivable that if we were able to construct, on a blank piece of paper, an appropriate structure to deal with the threat of Al Qaeda, the current arrangement of collaboration between 43 forces would be the answer. Actually, our inability to break away from our current structure is probably playing more into the hands of terrorist groups than helping law enforcement thwart an attack.
Yeoman_dai
The trouble is waters up to the 12nm limit count as part of the UK, and the local Police force is the primary law enforcement agency. This is really the point here, nobody is in overall charge of maintaining security of the UK coast as a whole.
Most Police forces do their best. Devon and Cornwall Police are asking people to report suspicious waterborne activity. All sorts of RIBs, launches and converted lifeboats are used by Police forces but they have an obvious problem, that is, they are unarmed. They could carry firearms teams but what if the threat demands platform mounted weapons such as the GPMG? I am unaware of any GPMGs, Miniguns or cannon in UK Police use (with the exception of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary who operate 30mm cannon aboard the ships used for transporting Plutonium), therefore it will come down to the RN and other services "aiding the civil power".
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errrrmmmm
Don't we have the SBS to do exactly what they say on the tin? Way I see it is the only snag is the MR2 going out of service and the MRA4 not coming into service! Or have I got it all wrong.......
Bring back the RAF Marine Branch with some fast patrol boats and guns and stuff!
Or maybe not.
Don't we have the SBS to do exactly what they say on the tin? Way I see it is the only snag is the MR2 going out of service and the MRA4 not coming into service! Or have I got it all wrong.......
Bring back the RAF Marine Branch with some fast patrol boats and guns and stuff!
Or maybe not.
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MoD Police Marine Unit
As already stated above the MoD police would be a very good starting point; they are all armed, staffed by very well trained mariners (many ex RN or RM) and have a great new fleet coming on stream:
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | MOD Police unveil new state-of-the-art patrol boat
Unfortunately, at present they only cover three small areas of the UK's coast and (as with everything else these days) who will pay?
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | MOD Police unveil new state-of-the-art patrol boat
Unfortunately, at present they only cover three small areas of the UK's coast and (as with everything else these days) who will pay?
Red On, Green On
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Don't we have the SBS to do exactly what they say on the tin?
What number do you get?
It's about 280. So each rufty-tufty canoeing Royal will have to patrol 280 miles of coast. Simples!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Halifax Explosion
The Halifax Explosion occurred on Thursday, December 6, 1917, when the city of Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, was devastated by the huge detonation of the SS Mont-Blanc, a French cargo ship, fully loaded with wartime explosives, which accidentally collided with the Norwegian SS Imo in "The Narrows" section of the Halifax Harbour. About 2,000 people were killed by debris, fires, or collapsed buildings and it is estimated that over 9,000 people were injured. This is still the world's largest man-made accidental explosion.
At 8:40 in the morning, the SS Mont-Blanc, chartered by the French government to carry munitions to Europe, collided with the unloaded Norwegian ship Imo, chartered by the Commission for Relief in Belgium to carry relief supplies. Mont-Blanc caught fire ten minutes after the collision and exploded about twenty-five minutes later (at 9:04:35 AM). All buildings and structures covering nearly 2 square kilometres (500 acres) along the adjacent shore were obliterated, including those in the neighbouring communities of Richmond and Dartmouth. The explosion caused a tsunami in the harbour and a pressure wave of air that snapped trees, bent iron rails, demolished buildings, grounded vessels, and carried fragments of the Mont-Blanc for kilometres...........
The Halifax Explosion occurred on Thursday, December 6, 1917, when the city of Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, was devastated by the huge detonation of the SS Mont-Blanc, a French cargo ship, fully loaded with wartime explosives, which accidentally collided with the Norwegian SS Imo in "The Narrows" section of the Halifax Harbour. About 2,000 people were killed by debris, fires, or collapsed buildings and it is estimated that over 9,000 people were injured. This is still the world's largest man-made accidental explosion.
At 8:40 in the morning, the SS Mont-Blanc, chartered by the French government to carry munitions to Europe, collided with the unloaded Norwegian ship Imo, chartered by the Commission for Relief in Belgium to carry relief supplies. Mont-Blanc caught fire ten minutes after the collision and exploded about twenty-five minutes later (at 9:04:35 AM). All buildings and structures covering nearly 2 square kilometres (500 acres) along the adjacent shore were obliterated, including those in the neighbouring communities of Richmond and Dartmouth. The explosion caused a tsunami in the harbour and a pressure wave of air that snapped trees, bent iron rails, demolished buildings, grounded vessels, and carried fragments of the Mont-Blanc for kilometres...........
