Taif
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Taif
Hello,
I've been offered a job in the sandpit in Taif (Typhoon project). Whilst I'm happy with the money and benefits being offered, I need to know a little more. Does anyone have any experience of the base and the surrounding area or info about working for Bae? Any advice greatly appreciated.
MOG
I've been offered a job in the sandpit in Taif (Typhoon project). Whilst I'm happy with the money and benefits being offered, I need to know a little more. Does anyone have any experience of the base and the surrounding area or info about working for Bae? Any advice greatly appreciated.
MOG
Last edited by Miserable Old Git; 10th May 2009 at 09:57. Reason: Can't spell for toffee!
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It's been a while (left the pit in 2001) but guess old info is better than no info till someone with more knowledge can add their piece.
Was based at Tabuk at the start of the ADV/Hawk time there. Went to Taif on a couple of occassions in aircraft so didn't really get out and about to check the place out. However, what I do know is that it was more primitive and less developed than Tabuk. As a comparitive, Tabuk was dire in the beginning. Girls had to wear the full gear (including headscarves) in town and there were no western shops or restaurants. The place was completely religious and like going back 300 years when comparing to lifestyle, environment and people with Riyadh and 500 years compared to Dhahran. That was in 1999 but it did improve when the Royals realised they needed to pump modern day into the area or the much needed hired help would leave (many did on behest of the hausfrau who couldn't deal with how primitive it was). BAE Systems also put money into new compounds, a school (the existing one was awful) and facilities. As I left in July 2001, the first Mickey-D's was opening and whilst that may sound bad in itself, it heralded a swing and acceptance of the new westerners and Tabuk ramped itself towards the 20th Century. I understand from friends who remain there that it is quite acceptable nowadays. Still no Dhahran but it was never going to be.
Taif had the same ancient view on things and unless the Americans in the area (Saudi F-15 base and believe US Army helping out Saudis with their tanks) have pushed the thing along it may be still in the position that Tabuk was. That in itself shouldn't stop you going as each to their own and whether it has modernised or not, only you can decide ultimately if it is for you. The bonus is that with Typhoon, BAE will put lots of money into the town and the area so in time it will become a more bearable place to be for westerners. The only variable will be whether your bucket of cash still outweighs your bucket of ****; if it doesn't, then go home.
Overall, the money was great for me but the bucket of **** rapidly filled and after 2 years i had had enough.
Not great info re Taif but as I said, until someone else with better knowledge of Taif replies, at least it is something to consider.
Aytch
Was based at Tabuk at the start of the ADV/Hawk time there. Went to Taif on a couple of occassions in aircraft so didn't really get out and about to check the place out. However, what I do know is that it was more primitive and less developed than Tabuk. As a comparitive, Tabuk was dire in the beginning. Girls had to wear the full gear (including headscarves) in town and there were no western shops or restaurants. The place was completely religious and like going back 300 years when comparing to lifestyle, environment and people with Riyadh and 500 years compared to Dhahran. That was in 1999 but it did improve when the Royals realised they needed to pump modern day into the area or the much needed hired help would leave (many did on behest of the hausfrau who couldn't deal with how primitive it was). BAE Systems also put money into new compounds, a school (the existing one was awful) and facilities. As I left in July 2001, the first Mickey-D's was opening and whilst that may sound bad in itself, it heralded a swing and acceptance of the new westerners and Tabuk ramped itself towards the 20th Century. I understand from friends who remain there that it is quite acceptable nowadays. Still no Dhahran but it was never going to be.
Taif had the same ancient view on things and unless the Americans in the area (Saudi F-15 base and believe US Army helping out Saudis with their tanks) have pushed the thing along it may be still in the position that Tabuk was. That in itself shouldn't stop you going as each to their own and whether it has modernised or not, only you can decide ultimately if it is for you. The bonus is that with Typhoon, BAE will put lots of money into the town and the area so in time it will become a more bearable place to be for westerners. The only variable will be whether your bucket of cash still outweighs your bucket of ****; if it doesn't, then go home.
Overall, the money was great for me but the bucket of **** rapidly filled and after 2 years i had had enough.
Not great info re Taif but as I said, until someone else with better knowledge of Taif replies, at least it is something to consider.
Aytch
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As for working for BAE is concerned - sounds to me like you are already under a misaprehension. In Saudi you may be contracted to BAE but you will be working for the Saudis, do not expect otherwise.
BAE will hire you but they will drop you like a ton of bricks if you fail to do whatever the Saudis want you to do.
A closely worded contract would help if you can get one.
BAE will hire you but they will drop you like a ton of bricks if you fail to do whatever the Saudis want you to do.
A closely worded contract would help if you can get one.
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I have worked out of most places in Saudi over the last 18 months, and spent 2 months operating out of Taif last year. Out of all the places I was working, Taif was the best......but however, before you get excited, I have to say that it is a relitive term, and generaly the country is pretty grim.
We were in the Intercontental hotel there, which wasn't bad. Good facilities and health club. I did have the opertunity to visit some of the American contactors who lived in a compoud near the base, (a former McDonald Douglas facility if memory serves), but that was allot more basic.
As alredy stated, the Saudi mentality is still so way back in the dark ages, that it is beyond belief. If I was to describe Saudis in a phrase it would be 'rampantly insecure', as everything is about control, namely theirs over everyone else. As already stated, women are second class citizens, are forbiden to drive, and must be covered head to foot with just the eyes showing when outside.
Prayer time dominates EVERYTHING. 5 times a day everything shuts down, and getting anything done, especially if it involves officials, is impossible.
Don't even think about driving there, get a local driver. If you get involved in an accident, (which is highly likley as the standards of driving there are abysmal), IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT, and this will most likely end in jail time and a lot of heartache.
You will find that Saudis don't talk to you, they talk AT you. Remember, that when you are there you are nothing but an infidel; and only reason that you are there is because they need you, and they tend to resent that.
I would certainly NEVER contemplating takeing my family there; but if you are young free and single, and there is the oppertunity to make good money for a couple of years, then why not go fo it. But then again, as a young free and singly guy remember there is no girls and no booze, so if that's your thing, forget it.
Good luck!
Any questions, feel free to PM me
We were in the Intercontental hotel there, which wasn't bad. Good facilities and health club. I did have the opertunity to visit some of the American contactors who lived in a compoud near the base, (a former McDonald Douglas facility if memory serves), but that was allot more basic.
As alredy stated, the Saudi mentality is still so way back in the dark ages, that it is beyond belief. If I was to describe Saudis in a phrase it would be 'rampantly insecure', as everything is about control, namely theirs over everyone else. As already stated, women are second class citizens, are forbiden to drive, and must be covered head to foot with just the eyes showing when outside.
Prayer time dominates EVERYTHING. 5 times a day everything shuts down, and getting anything done, especially if it involves officials, is impossible.
Don't even think about driving there, get a local driver. If you get involved in an accident, (which is highly likley as the standards of driving there are abysmal), IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT, and this will most likely end in jail time and a lot of heartache.
You will find that Saudis don't talk to you, they talk AT you. Remember, that when you are there you are nothing but an infidel; and only reason that you are there is because they need you, and they tend to resent that.
I would certainly NEVER contemplating takeing my family there; but if you are young free and single, and there is the oppertunity to make good money for a couple of years, then why not go fo it. But then again, as a young free and singly guy remember there is no girls and no booze, so if that's your thing, forget it.
Good luck!
Any questions, feel free to PM me
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Taif
Well having recently just left there less than 3 months ago and was there in the compound , the same compound as Groundaphobic must have visited for a glass or three of brown water.
Taif is like any where in Saudi its what you make of it. As for me i enjoyed Taif, but yes its hard work, socially there not a lot to do.
Either the two compounds or even the nurses hospitals social parties.
Shopping well the one decent new Mall is all ladies clothes and of course a Panda food store.
Jeddah is about a 2 hour drive from Taif which is about nearly 5000 feet up in the mountains.
Groundaphobic please pm me as i must know you.
I am now in Riyadh thanks
Taif is like any where in Saudi its what you make of it. As for me i enjoyed Taif, but yes its hard work, socially there not a lot to do.
Either the two compounds or even the nurses hospitals social parties.
Shopping well the one decent new Mall is all ladies clothes and of course a Panda food store.
Jeddah is about a 2 hour drive from Taif which is about nearly 5000 feet up in the mountains.
Groundaphobic please pm me as i must know you.
I am now in Riyadh thanks
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MOG,
Good info from Groundaphobic and Coffindodger. Forgot to say, feel free to PM me. I can at least talk with authority about working for BAE Systems if not about Taif; (of course, only if you don't get the info you require in this thread and still feel the need of someone else's thoughts on BAE dear chap).
Aytch
Good info from Groundaphobic and Coffindodger. Forgot to say, feel free to PM me. I can at least talk with authority about working for BAE Systems if not about Taif; (of course, only if you don't get the info you require in this thread and still feel the need of someone else's thoughts on BAE dear chap).
Aytch
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Thank for the replies. I have spent a little time - well, too much actually, in Saudi (PSAB), although it's a few years now, but I'm well aware of the attitude towards us infidels and the way in which your life at work has to change. That was a military job and was therefore fully supported. Oh, and it was only for 2 months at a time.
I was thinking more about the social side of life and what facilities there are on base or in a compound that I might end up in. Also I have no idea about the standard of housing that is offered and where it might be.
Interesting comment about not taking the family. My kids are very young and I guess it will make little difference to them over the 2 or 3 years I plan to be there. However, it's a big deal for the wife. She wants to support me but I don't think she'd hack it being there full time. We have talked about her spending half her time in country and half out, but i don't know if that's possible. What is there for wives to do?
Anyway, any further info about Taif, the base and anything else about working for Bae (yes, I know it's for the Saudis really) would be great.
MOG
I was thinking more about the social side of life and what facilities there are on base or in a compound that I might end up in. Also I have no idea about the standard of housing that is offered and where it might be.
Interesting comment about not taking the family. My kids are very young and I guess it will make little difference to them over the 2 or 3 years I plan to be there. However, it's a big deal for the wife. She wants to support me but I don't think she'd hack it being there full time. We have talked about her spending half her time in country and half out, but i don't know if that's possible. What is there for wives to do?
Anyway, any further info about Taif, the base and anything else about working for Bae (yes, I know it's for the Saudis really) would be great.
MOG
Last edited by Miserable Old Git; 10th May 2009 at 17:59. Reason: I forgot some stuff
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Family in Saudi
Hi MOG,
I'm currently in Saudi (with BAE) with my family (wife and 2 young kids) and for us it works perfectly. Kids enjoy school and Mr STTB finds enough to do to keep herself busy. We do however keep our house empty in UK and a car in the garage and the family spend exactly their allowance of 120 days back in the UK - all the school hols basically. The company allowance covers all our travel expenses. We find this helps a lot, many families here rent their homes out for extra cash, which is understandable, but they seem to find it unsettling not having a 'home' whilst they live here in their 'holiday home'. Compound life for young kids (under 12) is great in many ways, as long as their are other kids of a similar age/outlook as yours, otherwise it can suck. Works great for us. PM if you need to chat
I'm currently in Saudi (with BAE) with my family (wife and 2 young kids) and for us it works perfectly. Kids enjoy school and Mr STTB finds enough to do to keep herself busy. We do however keep our house empty in UK and a car in the garage and the family spend exactly their allowance of 120 days back in the UK - all the school hols basically. The company allowance covers all our travel expenses. We find this helps a lot, many families here rent their homes out for extra cash, which is understandable, but they seem to find it unsettling not having a 'home' whilst they live here in their 'holiday home'. Compound life for young kids (under 12) is great in many ways, as long as their are other kids of a similar age/outlook as yours, otherwise it can suck. Works great for us. PM if you need to chat
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Kid's prospective:
I moved to Saudi aged 2.5 in 1976, (Dad worked for Lockheed then BAE), lived and went to school in Taif for 6 years, then back to the UK boarding, going to Taif for the school holidays.
In the Pre 9/11 days, it was basic, no MCDs as mentioned, some shopping was limited eg no Lea and Perrins or Colemans mustard (bring from the UK) but school was enjoyable (there were 2 international schools one on the US grade system, the other UK based), shopping was cheap and the compounds were safe. When older it was safe enough for me to walk into town (13/14 years old) with my mates.
Alcohol was readily available if you went looking for it (we had a still in the spare bathroom but that's another story
) though Brands had to come through the American Mission.
Climate was much nicer than Jeddah, much less humidity. Travel to Jeddah much easier once the "motorway" was built.
As has been said, you make of it what you want, my dad went to Saudi in '73 and finaly left in the mid 90's so something more than the tax free earnings must have kept him there.... Lots of sunny days, big house (compared to the UK), good fresh food etc.
Cheers
iX
I moved to Saudi aged 2.5 in 1976, (Dad worked for Lockheed then BAE), lived and went to school in Taif for 6 years, then back to the UK boarding, going to Taif for the school holidays.
In the Pre 9/11 days, it was basic, no MCDs as mentioned, some shopping was limited eg no Lea and Perrins or Colemans mustard (bring from the UK) but school was enjoyable (there were 2 international schools one on the US grade system, the other UK based), shopping was cheap and the compounds were safe. When older it was safe enough for me to walk into town (13/14 years old) with my mates.
Alcohol was readily available if you went looking for it (we had a still in the spare bathroom but that's another story
) though Brands had to come through the American Mission.Climate was much nicer than Jeddah, much less humidity. Travel to Jeddah much easier once the "motorway" was built.
As has been said, you make of it what you want, my dad went to Saudi in '73 and finaly left in the mid 90's so something more than the tax free earnings must have kept him there.... Lots of sunny days, big house (compared to the UK), good fresh food etc.
Cheers
iX
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I've worked in Saudi for Bae since 95. Driving really is not a problem. I've had a couple of small accidents but havn't been in prison yet. Although a friend spent three nights in the nick for jumping a red light.
With cars costing about half the UK price . No road tax and 8p a litre petrol who wouldn't want to drive. Ok it can seem a bit manic at first but it's surprising how quickly you get used to it.
Great place if you fancy running a yank tank.
With cars costing about half the UK price . No road tax and 8p a litre petrol who wouldn't want to drive. Ok it can seem a bit manic at first but it's surprising how quickly you get used to it.
Great place if you fancy running a yank tank.
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You can joke about the driving as much as you like but I am telling you from bitter experience....the driving is about as bad and as dangerous as anywhere in the World i have visited. Everyday in Tabuk there was a death/s on the roads. They don't slow down approaching roundabouts/junctions (but especially roundabouts) and will just pull out without peeking round the corner of the tea towel to see the large american-style truck that is bearing down on them and about to send them to paradise. You see, they simply do not care if they die and that is how they drive.
I was in a serious accident not long after arriving that meant hospital (which was fantastic by the way with great and modern facilities and excellent specialists) and 14 weeks off work. The resultant serious neck trauma ended my flying a few years later and meant I spent a thoroughly miserable last 12 months in the RAF, medically grounded, and all ultimately due to the damage done in that accident. I have slowly worsening and permanent problems for the rest of my life because of their fantastic driving.
Going home on the Medina highway, middle lane of 3, full outside lane, truck on the inside, and the ****wit in front of the truck sees a gap in the central reservation that may mean he drives slightly less distance to get where he was going! He turns 90 left in front of me to get from the inside lane to the gap (on a bloody motorway) and with nowhere to go and no stopping distance, T-boned him at about 60mph. That ****er walked away...I went off in an ambulance.
Oh yes, and after the police had been, they declared that it was my fault!! Go figure!! Had to pay him compensation for his injured wrist and replace the ****heap of a car that HE had just written off by driving like a complete ****wit. You see if the christian infidel hadn't been in their Kingdom then I couldn't have hit him so therefore, it must be my fault.
So, in sum, when you do get to Taif, drive defensively but aggressively and you should be Ok but expect the absolute unexpected on the roads. I seriously suggest you listen to dougieb2's suggestion and buy a very large yank tank. At least that way you can take one with you if the ultimate worst happens.
Soz to all for the language, but just thinking back to the moment he turned accross the highway makes my blood boil instantly (especially as his actions ultimately ended my flying career many years earlier than planned!!!!!!)
Aytch
I was in a serious accident not long after arriving that meant hospital (which was fantastic by the way with great and modern facilities and excellent specialists) and 14 weeks off work. The resultant serious neck trauma ended my flying a few years later and meant I spent a thoroughly miserable last 12 months in the RAF, medically grounded, and all ultimately due to the damage done in that accident. I have slowly worsening and permanent problems for the rest of my life because of their fantastic driving.
Going home on the Medina highway, middle lane of 3, full outside lane, truck on the inside, and the ****wit in front of the truck sees a gap in the central reservation that may mean he drives slightly less distance to get where he was going! He turns 90 left in front of me to get from the inside lane to the gap (on a bloody motorway) and with nowhere to go and no stopping distance, T-boned him at about 60mph. That ****er walked away...I went off in an ambulance.
Oh yes, and after the police had been, they declared that it was my fault!! Go figure!! Had to pay him compensation for his injured wrist and replace the ****heap of a car that HE had just written off by driving like a complete ****wit. You see if the christian infidel hadn't been in their Kingdom then I couldn't have hit him so therefore, it must be my fault.
So, in sum, when you do get to Taif, drive defensively but aggressively and you should be Ok but expect the absolute unexpected on the roads. I seriously suggest you listen to dougieb2's suggestion and buy a very large yank tank. At least that way you can take one with you if the ultimate worst happens.
Soz to all for the language, but just thinking back to the moment he turned accross the highway makes my blood boil instantly (especially as his actions ultimately ended my flying career many years earlier than planned!!!!!!)
Aytch
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You have my sympathy AYTCH. The only reason I did not suffer as you did when one of them decided a red light was green was because I was driving a substantial 4 x 4. Nevertheless, the police tried 100% my fault despite the evidence of a Saudi following me. It took more than 6 months to get a police report (no vehicle repair allowed without one) and I had to take it to the Sharir court where the fat smelly judge said that it would be 50/50. His judgement was that one Saudi said his light was green and the other Saudi said my light was green. My evidence was disbarred because I was an infidel.
Drive carefully out there and pray a lot.
Drive carefully out there and pray a lot.
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Two years ago I had the slightly surreal, not to mention terrifying experience of being driven down a Saudi dual carrigeway at close to 80 mph, with the car in front in touching distance, whilst my taxi driver chatted on his mobile, held in one hand, and steered with his elbow, whilst he rested his other hand on the dashboard.
Mad as a box of frogs, but a hell of a lot more dangerous.
Mad as a box of frogs, but a hell of a lot more dangerous.
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Taif is not a place for me however, it does have some advantages in that it is cooler than Riyadh due to its altitude.
The Saudis have put Typhoon there for one reason and one reason only... the area needs to heavily invested in and foriegn contracts will allow that to happen.
I live and work in Riyadh and love it. Yes, the driving is like F1 without rules but IT IS GETTING BETTER. Speed cameras are popping up at a rate that would compete with the breeding rate of rabbits and are having an effect. There is a great deal of talk about women being able to drive in the not too distant future however, I would not place any money on that!
The weekend is Thurs-Fri however, and this is going to happen soon, it is going to change to Fri-Sat in line with other Middle Eastern states. The banks have been told to prepare for it so, expect it to happen soon (ish)
I personally have no issues working with Saudis. If you expect UK standards from them, your stress levels will go through the roof! Set a 'Saudi' benchmark in terms of what you can expect to achieve with them and go on from there. They are, in the whole, polite people who are heavily misunderstood by westerners. Too many people come here and treat is as a det and make little or no effort to immerse themselves.
BAe look after you out here, far far better than the RAF would ever be able to do. Medical facilities are excellent and the compound I live on (Salwa) is very impressive.
Go for it buddy, most people out here love it. A small minority do not enjoy it at all and head home but most expats love it here.
The Saudis have put Typhoon there for one reason and one reason only... the area needs to heavily invested in and foriegn contracts will allow that to happen.
I live and work in Riyadh and love it. Yes, the driving is like F1 without rules but IT IS GETTING BETTER. Speed cameras are popping up at a rate that would compete with the breeding rate of rabbits and are having an effect. There is a great deal of talk about women being able to drive in the not too distant future however, I would not place any money on that!
The weekend is Thurs-Fri however, and this is going to happen soon, it is going to change to Fri-Sat in line with other Middle Eastern states. The banks have been told to prepare for it so, expect it to happen soon (ish)
I personally have no issues working with Saudis. If you expect UK standards from them, your stress levels will go through the roof! Set a 'Saudi' benchmark in terms of what you can expect to achieve with them and go on from there. They are, in the whole, polite people who are heavily misunderstood by westerners. Too many people come here and treat is as a det and make little or no effort to immerse themselves.
BAe look after you out here, far far better than the RAF would ever be able to do. Medical facilities are excellent and the compound I live on (Salwa) is very impressive.
Go for it buddy, most people out here love it. A small minority do not enjoy it at all and head home but most expats love it here.
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Saudi Driving Test
I arrived at Khamis in Jan 1977, one of the first jobs was to get a Saudi driving licence, this involved going to Abba and taking the driving test.
This involved driving a reasonably priced car in a straight line up a slight incline, then stopping and reversing back in a straight line.
This was a source of interest to the locals, who turned out in force to watch the events, ( and assist in heaving the cars back on to the road,) many of the locals could not carry out the test, and with goats in the passenger seats and wives in the boot tried many times, but with no sucess.
A licence was assured by paying back handers to the copper in charge, and thus now legal off they went, nightmare to drive out there, I had a part share in a motorbike at the time, but managed to get away unscathed. Get something solid with airbags and wear a seat belt,
BR om15.
This involved driving a reasonably priced car in a straight line up a slight incline, then stopping and reversing back in a straight line.
This was a source of interest to the locals, who turned out in force to watch the events, ( and assist in heaving the cars back on to the road,) many of the locals could not carry out the test, and with goats in the passenger seats and wives in the boot tried many times, but with no sucess.
A licence was assured by paying back handers to the copper in charge, and thus now legal off they went, nightmare to drive out there, I had a part share in a motorbike at the time, but managed to get away unscathed. Get something solid with airbags and wear a seat belt,
BR om15.