Puma 2 to be scrapped. Surplus Puma pilots to be re-roled Typhoon
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Possible alternative to Puma2 could be the AS332L.You get the makila benefit thrown in.Suitable airframes are still working the north sea.Now being edged out by more modern versions , but only 30000 hrs or so on each of them!.Been done before,observe the Bell 212's of the AAC in Brunei and Belize. 
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Airpolice,
which weapons systems do we produce which are the best in the world? It would be best to buy off the shelf rather than develop our own.
How could the MOD justify a 'Dad's Army' when begging for money from the coffers?
How could we train our forces to the same standards that they recieve from real combat? And how could we develop effective tactics by poncing about on Salisbury shouting 'Bang'?
which weapons systems do we produce which are the best in the world? It would be best to buy off the shelf rather than develop our own.
How could the MOD justify a 'Dad's Army' when begging for money from the coffers?
How could we train our forces to the same standards that they recieve from real combat? And how could we develop effective tactics by poncing about on Salisbury shouting 'Bang'?
flipster,
to fit anticipators to Puma would require a re-engine. The Turmo 3C4 is not retro-fittable(?) with anticipators. This has not happened because the Puma has been "going out of service soon" for the last 20 years, so it has never been seen to be cost effective to spend the money on new engines.
However, if it is to stag on until 2022, then current airworthiness standards etc mean it is no longer acceptable to continue with no anticipators. This is the main driver behind the "upgrade". It is not an upgrade at all, it is a life extension programme, indeed anything that smacks of upgrade for upgrades sake will be, if not already has been, ruthlessly scrutinised out. It is, if you like, just a happy coincidence that the 1A1s are more powerful, have better fuel consumption etc etc.
Only that which is absolutely necessary to allow this 38 year old ac to soldier on for another 13 years will be included in the Puma 2.
If it ever goes ahead of course.
to fit anticipators to Puma would require a re-engine. The Turmo 3C4 is not retro-fittable(?) with anticipators. This has not happened because the Puma has been "going out of service soon" for the last 20 years, so it has never been seen to be cost effective to spend the money on new engines.
However, if it is to stag on until 2022, then current airworthiness standards etc mean it is no longer acceptable to continue with no anticipators. This is the main driver behind the "upgrade". It is not an upgrade at all, it is a life extension programme, indeed anything that smacks of upgrade for upgrades sake will be, if not already has been, ruthlessly scrutinised out. It is, if you like, just a happy coincidence that the 1A1s are more powerful, have better fuel consumption etc etc.
Only that which is absolutely necessary to allow this 38 year old ac to soldier on for another 13 years will be included in the Puma 2.
If it ever goes ahead of course.
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PCD
Thanks - very helpful.
I might be interesting to ask your IPT if such risks have been fully addressed in the Puma safety case documents and what has been said!
Flip
Thanks - very helpful.
I might be interesting to ask your IPT if such risks have been fully addressed in the Puma safety case documents and what has been said!
Flip
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I think it would cost an insane amount of money to put the British war manufacturing machine back into service. It would take at least 20 years to get up to a realistic and 'current' level of design and consistency. And there would also be a distinct lack of designers or 'boffins'. Our schooling system no longer creates cutting edge engineers and designers, it churns out 'I know my rights' and baby making machines.
And even then we would still need to rely on foreign powers for the raw materials etc.
Bleak.....
And even then we would still need to rely on foreign powers for the raw materials etc.
Bleak.....
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Have to agree with airpolice to a degree this govt has not only run down our armed forces but the Industries that supported them. It does worry me how dependant we are getting on other countries to supply our kit.
I see the reason the contract for Puma 2 has to go to Romania they are the current Puma experts and refurbished the SADF ones the RAF bought a few years ago. And Puma does need updating or are we just going to repeat the wessex saga all over again?
Quinetic appear to be doing a reasonable job with Chinook HC2.5 backdate and westland work well with Seaking. The other option maybe shelve Puma 2 and start low rate ordering of next generation chinook? RAF has always made it clear it wants more chinooks so why not phase the puma out slowly?
I wonder what the US is going to do with the VH71 airframes and could westland convert them to HC4's?
I see the reason the contract for Puma 2 has to go to Romania they are the current Puma experts and refurbished the SADF ones the RAF bought a few years ago. And Puma does need updating or are we just going to repeat the wessex saga all over again?
Quinetic appear to be doing a reasonable job with Chinook HC2.5 backdate and westland work well with Seaking. The other option maybe shelve Puma 2 and start low rate ordering of next generation chinook? RAF has always made it clear it wants more chinooks so why not phase the puma out slowly?
I wonder what the US is going to do with the VH71 airframes and could westland convert them to HC4's?
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I think upgrades of the existing Chinook fleet are being considered. However, if the UK ordered new CH-47F models, then it is more likely they would be built in Italy given that AgustaWestland will be putting a production line in place over there for a recent order by the Italian Army. AgustaWestland (Italy) has an agreement with Boeing to sell the F model to the UK if it wants it.
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The other option maybe shelve Puma 2 and start low rate ordering of next generation chinook? RAF has always made it clear it wants more chinooks so why not phase the puma out slowly?
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I think you will find the ICH-47F fuselage will be built at Ridley Park in Pennsylvania.
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Sorry for a tad straying off topic here..
Now that the VH-71 contract has been put on stop, what future is there for the (9?) that have,have yet to be built and flown over the pond? Are they awaiting Congress or are they going to sit in a hangar?
Just a thought but surely they could be put to some use perhaps? well maybe.
V1
Now that the VH-71 contract has been put on stop, what future is there for the (9?) that have,have yet to be built and flown over the pond? Are they awaiting Congress or are they going to sit in a hangar?
Just a thought but surely they could be put to some use perhaps? well maybe.
V1
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VH-71A cancellation
Gents,
Think we need to be careful about the cancellation of the VH-71A Kestrel - it wasn't protectionism, it was that at $400m each (IIRC), it was simply insanely expensive and not even the US could justify this. However, I'm not sure that the KESTREL airframes had a rear ramp, so think that they would be f*ck all use to us, even if they didn't have US engines and systems.
S41
Think we need to be careful about the cancellation of the VH-71A Kestrel - it wasn't protectionism, it was that at $400m each (IIRC), it was simply insanely expensive and not even the US could justify this. However, I'm not sure that the KESTREL airframes had a rear ramp, so think that they would be f*ck all use to us, even if they didn't have US engines and systems.
S41
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Nurse - Don't blame it all on the user. If you talk to those close to the program, the prime also did a pretty lousy job at managing the project.
Back on topic, the MoD has now denied the Times report:
Plans for Puma Improvements Continue
UK Ministry of Defence May 26
The Times has reported that the Government has delayed the £400m contract to upgrade the RAF's Puma helicopters for political reasons. Under current plans, the MOD intends to extend the service life of both the Puma Mk1 and Sea King Mk4 helicopters before they are replaced by the Future Medium Lift Helicopter which is currently in its concept phase.
We have worked closely with Eurocopter, the manufacturer of Puma, to carry out the Puma Life Extension Programme (LEP) Assessment Phase and, as planned, we expect to make our main investment decision on this project this summer.
The Puma LEP will address obsolescence and safety issues and enhance capability. Upgrades will include a digital cockpit, more powerful Makila engines and an up-rated tail rotor.
These modifications will also provide significantly increased performance in the high temperatures and altitudes that characterise deployments in Afghanistan, enabling its deployment to this theatre, if necessary and desirable, from about 2013.
I/C
Back on topic, the MoD has now denied the Times report:
Plans for Puma Improvements Continue
UK Ministry of Defence May 26
The Times has reported that the Government has delayed the £400m contract to upgrade the RAF's Puma helicopters for political reasons. Under current plans, the MOD intends to extend the service life of both the Puma Mk1 and Sea King Mk4 helicopters before they are replaced by the Future Medium Lift Helicopter which is currently in its concept phase.
We have worked closely with Eurocopter, the manufacturer of Puma, to carry out the Puma Life Extension Programme (LEP) Assessment Phase and, as planned, we expect to make our main investment decision on this project this summer.
The Puma LEP will address obsolescence and safety issues and enhance capability. Upgrades will include a digital cockpit, more powerful Makila engines and an up-rated tail rotor.
These modifications will also provide significantly increased performance in the high temperatures and altitudes that characterise deployments in Afghanistan, enabling its deployment to this theatre, if necessary and desirable, from about 2013.
I/C
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Hmmmm and how much to upgrade SK4 fleet with twin power turbine Gnomes and drive thru a life extension programme. £600 Mill to sort the SK4 fleet and also generate a sizeable SK6C fleet of 20 plus A/C.
No need to upgrade PUMA, a 60 A/C fleet of SK4/6C would cover any capability gap. Lots of read across...Carson MRB, AW 5BTR, for increased hot and high capability.
British jobs for british workers.....PUMA upgrade's dead in the water IMHO
No need to upgrade PUMA, a 60 A/C fleet of SK4/6C would cover any capability gap. Lots of read across...Carson MRB, AW 5BTR, for increased hot and high capability.
British jobs for british workers.....PUMA upgrade's dead in the water IMHO
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Aviation Week claimed on Thursday that a contract for the Puma upgrade had already been awarded. £250 million was the figure they gave. Were they jumping the gun as nothing official has been announced?
Eurocopter Lands Puma Life Extension Program | AVIATION WEEK
Eurocopter Lands Puma Life Extension Program | AVIATION WEEK