Puma 2 to be scrapped. Surplus Puma pilots to be re-roled Typhoon
Avoid imitations
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CG
All except Shy Torque of course, who is a sky god
All except Shy Torque of course, who is a sky god
(Shy, the billing address is the same!)
CG, thanks for the compliment. Out of all the crewmen I ever flew with you were..... sorry who are you again?
P.s. Only joking; a pleasure to fly with you - twenty plus years ago? LSH too.
P.p.s. Got any more sheep?
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Apart from the Grey Wildcat fleet..... or are you saying that all of the Wildcats will be painted green....... Doubt it somehow
No but it is no fun taking the p1ss out of the Navy, they have a sense of humour so I sort of forgot about the SCMR. Thanks for your enlightening and thoughtful interjection – of course the Puma mates would probably also be very welcome on the dark blue side too.
I said they were going green (as in Army) not aircraft colour, must have been a bit subtle for you and I will try to be a little less ambiguous next time.
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fact_attack - Surely the ultimate font of knowledge in the military are the station/garrison/navy place where they park their boats cleaners? Ivor the cleaner at RAF Stafford always seemed to know what teams on TSW were deploying where and when just after the OC did.
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"What have the Romanians ever done for us..." 
Puma upgrade in Romania is stalled 'over fears for votes'
Times 26th May
A plan to award Romania a £400 million contract to upgrade Royal Air Force helicopters has been delayed amid fears of a voter backlash.
Senior military officers have told The Times that the Government is holding up the contract to overhaul the RAF Pumas for political reasons.
The work on the 33 Puma transport helicopters is expected to be done in Romania by Eurocopter, but Labour MPs are worried about the reaction of voters amid rising unemployment in Britain. The Government is said to favour switching the £250 million to £400 million contract from Eurocopter to AgustaWestland, which would upgrade the Royal Navy's Sea Kings instead of the Pumas. The work would be done in Yeovil and could create hundreds of jobs.
However, this is not an option that the Armed Forces favour because the Pumas are better suited to “hot and high” work in Afghanistan. A senior military officer said: “The Puma decision is all about politics. We need the aircraft, but it is not politically acceptable to be sending work to Romania.”
Another source said that ministers had twice rejected the request to upgrade the Pumas. An MoD spokesman confirmed that the Puma upgrade had not been approved but declined to say why.
The military has repeatedly complained that it is critically short of helicopters in Afghanistan and the Government has considered leasing old Soviet helicopters to fill the gap.
Amicus, the union, has met defence ministers to press for the helicopter work to be done in the UK. Bernie Hamilton, the union's national organiser, said: “I have made representations to ministers and our view is that it would be better to upgrade the Sea Kings because there would be more UK work content. This contract would enable Westland to take on more people and would also be a benefit to Rolls-Royce, which makes the engine.”
It is understood that Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, has waded into the helicopter debate on Eurocopter's side. He is said to be pushing for the Puma upgrade even if it means doing it in Romania because he hopes to guarantee future British work from Airbus, the aircraft maker owned by the same company as Eurocopter.
The Pumas were designed and built by Aerospatiale of French in the 1960s and 1970s. Eurocopter, which was formed from Aerospatiale, will upgrade the Pumas if a contract is awarded.
They entered service in 1971 and many are now nearly 40 years old. The project will enable them to continue to operate until about 2022.
“The best option is for a new fleet but no money exists for that,” a defence source said.
EADS, which owns Eurocopter, said: “The MoD has asked for the best-value-for-money solution. All options will be examined.”
I/C
Puma upgrade in Romania is stalled 'over fears for votes'
Times 26th May
A plan to award Romania a £400 million contract to upgrade Royal Air Force helicopters has been delayed amid fears of a voter backlash.
Senior military officers have told The Times that the Government is holding up the contract to overhaul the RAF Pumas for political reasons.
The work on the 33 Puma transport helicopters is expected to be done in Romania by Eurocopter, but Labour MPs are worried about the reaction of voters amid rising unemployment in Britain. The Government is said to favour switching the £250 million to £400 million contract from Eurocopter to AgustaWestland, which would upgrade the Royal Navy's Sea Kings instead of the Pumas. The work would be done in Yeovil and could create hundreds of jobs.
However, this is not an option that the Armed Forces favour because the Pumas are better suited to “hot and high” work in Afghanistan. A senior military officer said: “The Puma decision is all about politics. We need the aircraft, but it is not politically acceptable to be sending work to Romania.”
Another source said that ministers had twice rejected the request to upgrade the Pumas. An MoD spokesman confirmed that the Puma upgrade had not been approved but declined to say why.
The military has repeatedly complained that it is critically short of helicopters in Afghanistan and the Government has considered leasing old Soviet helicopters to fill the gap.
Amicus, the union, has met defence ministers to press for the helicopter work to be done in the UK. Bernie Hamilton, the union's national organiser, said: “I have made representations to ministers and our view is that it would be better to upgrade the Sea Kings because there would be more UK work content. This contract would enable Westland to take on more people and would also be a benefit to Rolls-Royce, which makes the engine.”
It is understood that Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, has waded into the helicopter debate on Eurocopter's side. He is said to be pushing for the Puma upgrade even if it means doing it in Romania because he hopes to guarantee future British work from Airbus, the aircraft maker owned by the same company as Eurocopter.
The Pumas were designed and built by Aerospatiale of French in the 1960s and 1970s. Eurocopter, which was formed from Aerospatiale, will upgrade the Pumas if a contract is awarded.
They entered service in 1971 and many are now nearly 40 years old. The project will enable them to continue to operate until about 2022.
“The best option is for a new fleet but no money exists for that,” a defence source said.
EADS, which owns Eurocopter, said: “The MoD has asked for the best-value-for-money solution. All options will be examined.”
I/C
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Only the cash strapped muppets in whitehall would think of a 40 yr old (nearly) cab with so many lifex's as to keep it just about useable to be refurbed and given some new stickers instead of buying new helicopters.
question 1, is there a suitable aircraft to be purchased/licensed built in blighty?
question 2, why have we not bought said aircraft?
question 3, who the f*** is in charge down there? If I ran my engineering dept this way my factory would be available for 8 hours a week and we would make 6 items and rerole the line again...
question 1, is there a suitable aircraft to be purchased/licensed built in blighty?
question 2, why have we not bought said aircraft?
question 3, who the f*** is in charge down there? If I ran my engineering dept this way my factory would be available for 8 hours a week and we would make 6 items and rerole the line again...
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As for an alternative, the NH-90 is probably the only new one at this moment. The proposed AW149 would be suitable. I think the Puma upgrade will keep it in service until 2022, after which it (and the Sea King) will be replaced by the "Future Medium Lift Helicopter", whatever that'll end up being. Why we haven't bought anything else? Money. We have none.
I don't know about the accuracy of that article. If it refers to modifications being undertaken in Romania, there is only the Brasov-based Eurocopter Romania, the joint venture between Eurocopter and IAR Brasov that modifies Pumas for the civvie market. A number of websites are advertising at this very moment for a logistics manager to liase between Eurocopter UK and Eurocopter at Marignane; not Brasov however.
I don't know about the accuracy of that article. If it refers to modifications being undertaken in Romania, there is only the Brasov-based Eurocopter Romania, the joint venture between Eurocopter and IAR Brasov that modifies Pumas for the civvie market. A number of websites are advertising at this very moment for a logistics manager to liase between Eurocopter UK and Eurocopter at Marignane; not Brasov however.
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I have a radical idea, which would:
a) give the MOD a much-needed, hot-and-high capable medium SH capability in Helmand, and
b) support AgustaWestland in Yeovil.
It is (wait for it) - buy some spangly new AW149s!
Crazy, I know...
a) give the MOD a much-needed, hot-and-high capable medium SH capability in Helmand, and
b) support AgustaWestland in Yeovil.
It is (wait for it) - buy some spangly new AW149s!
Crazy, I know...
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Sea King is more Merlin sized... by base statistics, anyway, while the Puma is slightly smaller.
Why not just get more Merlins to replace the Sea Kings, and get some of those lovely NH90's to replace Puma, as again they are about the same size?
Only with greater capability
And would support jobs in the UK
And finally give the Sea King/Puma fleet a chance to die, as opposed to being used until the end of all time.
I swear, the way the government's work things, the RAF and RN crews trying to deal with the apocalypse will be in several thousand year old Sea Kings.... Mod 123887438
Why not just get more Merlins to replace the Sea Kings, and get some of those lovely NH90's to replace Puma, as again they are about the same size?
Only with greater capability
And would support jobs in the UK
And finally give the Sea King/Puma fleet a chance to die, as opposed to being used until the end of all time.
I swear, the way the government's work things, the RAF and RN crews trying to deal with the apocalypse will be in several thousand year old Sea Kings.... Mod 123887438
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I have a radical idea, which would:
a) give the MOD a much-needed, hot-and-high capable medium SH capability in Helmand, and
b) support AgustaWestland in Yeovil.
It is (wait for it) - buy some spangly new AW149s!
Crazy, I know...
a) give the MOD a much-needed, hot-and-high capable medium SH capability in Helmand, and
b) support AgustaWestland in Yeovil.
It is (wait for it) - buy some spangly new AW149s!
Crazy, I know...
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It makes sense in terms of cost and time to let Eurocopter get on with it, if this means Romania then so be it.
What many people are not aware of is that EC have just finished upgrading 22 French Air Force Pumas to Mk2 standard and are offering to continue the upgrade line to us.
In financial terms this means that there will be hardly any NRE as everything has already been done before, it means better support for the fleet from EC as they have commonality within type.
Or of course there is the other option..start from scratch with a Thales cockpit and get AW to do the work adding gazillions to the bill.
What many people are not aware of is that EC have just finished upgrading 22 French Air Force Pumas to Mk2 standard and are offering to continue the upgrade line to us.
In financial terms this means that there will be hardly any NRE as everything has already been done before, it means better support for the fleet from EC as they have commonality within type.
Or of course there is the other option..start from scratch with a Thales cockpit and get AW to do the work adding gazillions to the bill.
"In financial terms this means that there will be hardly any NRE"
Some bloody hope - since when did we EVER order anything off the shelf? The fact that we will (rightly) insist on UK Comms/DAS etc will create a sufficient delta for EC to justify a nice fat wedge of NRE (and a profit margin on it..)
I have sympathy with the AW employee in the article. I would do the same if it were my job threatened and with thinly-disguised protectionism rife at the moment (VH-71 anyone?) the call for a UK spend is a very populist sentiment. The truly sad thing is that AW don't make an aircraft that we want within an acceptable Cost/Performance envelope. They must stop hawking the Merlin as their solution for every requirement - it isn't, nowhere close. AW149 doesn't seem a bad cab, but with limited numbers on order the unit cost will be eye-watering (though probably better VFM than AAC "Tame Dog").
If we really want to invest in RW, appease AW and provide some genuine capability uplift then we need AW to build us 20-30 CH47Fs (as they are for the Italian Army) and negotiate an innovative finance deal for us to afford AW149 in meaningful quantities.
So, in reality, as we're broke, we'll end up with warmed-over Sea Kings / Pumas and (yet) another iteration of the Merlin.....
Some bloody hope - since when did we EVER order anything off the shelf? The fact that we will (rightly) insist on UK Comms/DAS etc will create a sufficient delta for EC to justify a nice fat wedge of NRE (and a profit margin on it..)
I have sympathy with the AW employee in the article. I would do the same if it were my job threatened and with thinly-disguised protectionism rife at the moment (VH-71 anyone?) the call for a UK spend is a very populist sentiment. The truly sad thing is that AW don't make an aircraft that we want within an acceptable Cost/Performance envelope. They must stop hawking the Merlin as their solution for every requirement - it isn't, nowhere close. AW149 doesn't seem a bad cab, but with limited numbers on order the unit cost will be eye-watering (though probably better VFM than AAC "Tame Dog").
If we really want to invest in RW, appease AW and provide some genuine capability uplift then we need AW to build us 20-30 CH47Fs (as they are for the Italian Army) and negotiate an innovative finance deal for us to afford AW149 in meaningful quantities.
So, in reality, as we're broke, we'll end up with warmed-over Sea Kings / Pumas and (yet) another iteration of the Merlin.....
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A slight aside gents,
Looking at a number of past Puma accident reports, most of them seem to keep saying
"Fit an anticipator" as it seems the ac is not best placed with low-power settings on the collective.
Does the Puma yet have such an anticipator and, if not, will Puma 2 need one?
Looking at a number of past Puma accident reports, most of them seem to keep saying
"Fit an anticipator" as it seems the ac is not best placed with low-power settings on the collective.
Does the Puma yet have such an anticipator and, if not, will Puma 2 need one?
Tiger 16,
Not a FJ pilot, therefore I lack the mental capacity to go higher than 2-star..
...and a distinct lack of career to get anywhere close to that!
Puma 2 will re-engine the aircraft (if it happens) with the venerable Makilas, including anticipators.
Not a FJ pilot, therefore I lack the mental capacity to go higher than 2-star..
...and a distinct lack of career to get anywhere close to that!
Puma 2 will re-engine the aircraft (if it happens) with the venerable Makilas, including anticipators.
flipster,
Puma - no anticipator.
Puma 2 - yes, design fits Makila 1A1, which has an anticipator.
Please, NO!!!!! The Sea King Mk6s were ruled out a long time ago for good reasons. It has been a while since I had much to do with this programme, but the Puma 2 design must be pretty mature by now. The EC upgrade-a-Puma scheme has already been done, for a number of different customers, it is as "off the shelf" as you could reasonably get. Similarly, the Thales comms/avionics fit is already in existence on at least 2 platforms, and Thales and EC have been working together since the very beginning to ensure the two halves of the project integrate together and avoid the sort of problems that beset the Chinook mk3. Qinetiq were onboard from the start so they could accurately focus their certification efforts where it was really needed, and not waste time duplicating work that has already been done by the manufacturer as part of its certification process, with the aim of saving money, and in this case more importantly, time.
As Ron Fenest put it so succintly:
EC could have got on with this a couple of years ago, but the glacial progress of procurement has seen this go right, then right, then right again, with still no signs of stopping. Had the decision been made (what, someone actually make a decision?) then the RAF would by now be the proud owners of their first Puma HC2s. To cancel the lot and start over again with AW and refurbed Sea King Mk 6 is just unthinkable.
Puma - no anticipator.
Puma 2 - yes, design fits Makila 1A1, which has an anticipator.
The Government is said to favour switching the £250 million to £400 million contract from Eurocopter to AgustaWestland, which would upgrade the Royal Navy's Sea Kings instead of the Pumas. The work would be done in Yeovil and could create hundreds of jobs.
As Ron Fenest put it so succintly:
It makes sense in terms of cost and time to let Eurocopter get on with it,
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According to the MoD's blog today, they are still going with a Sea King upgrade after which, along with the Puma HC2, it'll be replaced by this Future Medium Lift Helicopter thingy.
It is probably the best solution now, but there was an opportunity to help fund the AW149 when it was announced a few years back as AgustaWestland was supposed to approach the UK about contributing some money towards it. I think at that stage the MoD was going to lease some helicopters to replace the Puma and Sea King with bids already put in before they then decided instead to buy the Danish Merlins and go for the Puma upgrade.
It is probably the best solution now, but there was an opportunity to help fund the AW149 when it was announced a few years back as AgustaWestland was supposed to approach the UK about contributing some money towards it. I think at that stage the MoD was going to lease some helicopters to replace the Puma and Sea King with bids already put in before they then decided instead to buy the Danish Merlins and go for the Puma upgrade.
Air Police,
In some respects the heads of the RAF and RN would agree with you. Afghanistan is inconvenient as it doesn't fit in with the doctrine used to justify the vanity projects (Typhoon, JSF, CVF, T45 and Astute). Afghanistan is a campaign dominated by "cinderella organisations", ie, dismounted infantry, RW and AT. Much better for the RN/RAF (and BAES) if we were to withdraw into a technologically dependant isolation allowing us to continue to procure weapons systems for the "future war" that we want to pretend we'll fight rather than "waste" money on unglamourous RW/AT/ISTAR assets for the war we actually are fighting.1/T2
As an aside, I see from Janes that the USAF is to embark on a policy of "rebalancing" away from Tactical FJs to ISTAR/UCAV/AT forces, and in doing so will retire over 250 F15/16s and A10s. With the current CAS' mindset to mimic the USAF (well, except for long range bombers, dedicated SEAD, LO tech and a shed load of strat/tac AT/AAR....) I wonder if we'll follow along? Selling 100+ T1/T2 Typhoons to "rebalance" on C17/C130J/CH47 and Reaper would appear to be a good start...we could even re-role some Typhoon pilots to Puma Mk2!!
In some respects the heads of the RAF and RN would agree with you. Afghanistan is inconvenient as it doesn't fit in with the doctrine used to justify the vanity projects (Typhoon, JSF, CVF, T45 and Astute). Afghanistan is a campaign dominated by "cinderella organisations", ie, dismounted infantry, RW and AT. Much better for the RN/RAF (and BAES) if we were to withdraw into a technologically dependant isolation allowing us to continue to procure weapons systems for the "future war" that we want to pretend we'll fight rather than "waste" money on unglamourous RW/AT/ISTAR assets for the war we actually are fighting.1/T2
As an aside, I see from Janes that the USAF is to embark on a policy of "rebalancing" away from Tactical FJs to ISTAR/UCAV/AT forces, and in doing so will retire over 250 F15/16s and A10s. With the current CAS' mindset to mimic the USAF (well, except for long range bombers, dedicated SEAD, LO tech and a shed load of strat/tac AT/AAR....) I wonder if we'll follow along? Selling 100+ T1/T2 Typhoons to "rebalance" on C17/C130J/CH47 and Reaper would appear to be a good start...we could even re-role some Typhoon pilots to Puma Mk2!!