Pay Rise on 1st April 09?
"Whilst the rest of the UK workforce is facing rising unemployment and severe financial hardship, the Armed Forces are to receive a pay rise above the current rate of inflation"
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Sometimes cynicism can go too far. But if you hadn't, somebody else would have. More significant headlines came yesterday when fiqures of just how bankrupt the country (read Govt) is; started to be announced. I hasten to add that in the recent days we (read Govt) have made financial contributions to the third world and continue to fight two very expensive Campaigns (read wars). One wonders how a bankrupt Govt can continue to spend money it clearly does not have, whilst hoping that Govt employees do not become the fall guys (n galls). That a C17 arrived at LYN yesterday with flag draped coffins must really irritate the Govt PR machine; and yes, Sky News are already proving that the smoke element of the smoke and mirrors is now up and running. If the announcement on AFPRB is tomorrow, it will demonstrate above all else how underhand this Govt actually is, and quite possibly how the media do not rate the military ops / casualties as 'newsworthy' anymore.
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We aren't newsworthy. As for Lyneham, what hacked me off was the Sky News reporting blahing on during the one minute silence when the cars stopped in Wooton BassettI hear that 60 000 mpeople are going to be trained in case of terrorism in the UK. Are we about to be replaced??
A couple of points I have already made before, but I'm sure most people haven't bothered to read all 250 odd posts:
1) The latest inflation figures (for Feb 09) are due to be announced on 24 Mar. One of the two figures (RPI/CPI) will probably be NEGATIVE, and the other will be very low. Hence I expect any announcement to be made after 24 Mar, as by then even a very modest pay rise (say 1%) will seem generous to Mondeo Man (who is worried about losing his job) in comparison to current inflation.
2) Given that ALL public sector pay will be announced at once, there are potential a few million (I believe there are 5 million ish public sector employees - over 1 million in the NHS alone) people waiting to hear this news.
I personally am not expecting or in favour of a significant pay rise. What does hack me off about this whole issue is the apparent indifference/lack of consideration being shown from the government on down. It took someone's MP asking a minister to drag anything out of them, and even then the response was, "in due course". In terms of employer/employee relations I consider this an appalling way for an employer to act.
A statement from the government to the effect that public sector pay was under review as part of the government's overall spending plans, and therefore would not be announced until late March/early April (assuming this is of course the case) would not have been difficult.
There has been nothing but thunderous silences coming from the upper echlons of the MOD either.
I know that as a rule we actually are, but this incident very much makes me feel that we are being taken for granted...!!
Maybe I'm just being naive again - I've been accused of that before!
1) The latest inflation figures (for Feb 09) are due to be announced on 24 Mar. One of the two figures (RPI/CPI) will probably be NEGATIVE, and the other will be very low. Hence I expect any announcement to be made after 24 Mar, as by then even a very modest pay rise (say 1%) will seem generous to Mondeo Man (who is worried about losing his job) in comparison to current inflation.
2) Given that ALL public sector pay will be announced at once, there are potential a few million (I believe there are 5 million ish public sector employees - over 1 million in the NHS alone) people waiting to hear this news.
I personally am not expecting or in favour of a significant pay rise. What does hack me off about this whole issue is the apparent indifference/lack of consideration being shown from the government on down. It took someone's MP asking a minister to drag anything out of them, and even then the response was, "in due course". In terms of employer/employee relations I consider this an appalling way for an employer to act.
A statement from the government to the effect that public sector pay was under review as part of the government's overall spending plans, and therefore would not be announced until late March/early April (assuming this is of course the case) would not have been difficult.
There has been nothing but thunderous silences coming from the upper echlons of the MOD either.
I know that as a rule we actually are, but this incident very much makes me feel that we are being taken for granted...!!
Maybe I'm just being naive again - I've been accused of that before!
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Are you sure?
Beagle: are you sure that's what Gnd actually said?
The following text is taken from the 37th report, 2008. That report was based on the case that the Government made to the AFPRB approximately 2 years ago, at which time the Jan 2007 inflation figures were: RPI 4.2%, CPI 2.7%:
Current figures (for year up to Jan 2009, released Feb 2009): RPI: 0.1%, CPI: 3.0%! So by Cyclops' own argument, anything less than 3.0% for the Armed Forces is a pay cut in real terms, based on the inflation figures that are most appropriate for us. (And, given that many people in the Armed Forces don't own their own houses, excluding house prices from the calculations does indeed seem like a reasonable approach.)
The following text is taken from the 37th report, 2008. That report was based on the case that the Government made to the AFPRB approximately 2 years ago, at which time the Jan 2007 inflation figures were: RPI 4.2%, CPI 2.7%:
The Government highlighted that CPI was the standard measure of inflation across the European Union, that it took better account of the substitution between cheaper and more expensive goods and services, and that it had a wider population coverage. It added that wage setting based on RPI would exacerbate inflation by including increases in interest rates which were designed to reduce inflation.
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Thing is, both of those indicies are both bollox, constructed by the government to favour their decisions.
Fact is, neither RPI or CPI represent the true cost of increase of living.
Unless you eat widescreen PCs with a whole raft of other consumer products that is.
My guess? RPI will go negative whilst CPI will remain above the 2% target for the duration of this crisis. There is a whole load of inflation backing up in the system, record low interest rates and record low shipping will not do anything to reduce inflation.
Its a bloody good job that public sector pay settlements have been calculated off cpi isnt it?
Fact is, neither RPI or CPI represent the true cost of increase of living.
Unless you eat widescreen PCs with a whole raft of other consumer products that is.
My guess? RPI will go negative whilst CPI will remain above the 2% target for the duration of this crisis. There is a whole load of inflation backing up in the system, record low interest rates and record low shipping will not do anything to reduce inflation.
Its a bloody good job that public sector pay settlements have been calculated off cpi isnt it?
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OK, I apologise for my cheap stab at the unfortunate Ms G, (but NOT for any stabs I may make at the G). I was just continuing a theme started much earlier in this thread. But, as has been pointed out, not many people will read all of it, so we are repeating ourselves, and becoming 'Boring' in doing so.
So, with March fast disappearing, and the 'usual' announcment made in Feb....... what is the 'Real' reason for the delay?, what is the 'Real' reason for grouping all Public Sector worker together? and what is the Freakin' Secret?!!! Lets face it, if half of the Gov's Data Security was sewn up this tight, they wouldn't have had the crushing embarassments they've had over the last few years. More importantly, why haven't we heard the slightest squeek from 'Them Upstairs'?.....Nothing.
The truth will out, and I don't think we will like it. But, bad news is bad news which ever day it happens. Better delivered in a timely fashion, with honesty and integrity in my view. Imagine a policeman comming to your door, and saying:
'Yeh, your kids been in a train crash, but we'll let you know the outcome in due course. Thing is, there's a bit of a rush on with train crashes this week, so we want to group them all together'
Advo
So, with March fast disappearing, and the 'usual' announcment made in Feb....... what is the 'Real' reason for the delay?, what is the 'Real' reason for grouping all Public Sector worker together? and what is the Freakin' Secret?!!! Lets face it, if half of the Gov's Data Security was sewn up this tight, they wouldn't have had the crushing embarassments they've had over the last few years. More importantly, why haven't we heard the slightest squeek from 'Them Upstairs'?.....Nothing.
The truth will out, and I don't think we will like it. But, bad news is bad news which ever day it happens. Better delivered in a timely fashion, with honesty and integrity in my view. Imagine a policeman comming to your door, and saying:
'Yeh, your kids been in a train crash, but we'll let you know the outcome in due course. Thing is, there's a bit of a rush on with train crashes this week, so we want to group them all together'
Advo
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P A Y
Isn't this a case of the NHS get x% one week, police get y% the week after then the firemen get z% the week after that. Of course, the firemen will find umbrance at what the NHS and police got and demand at least as much, if not more. We will then all be employed on an Operation Fiasco again:
Operation Fresco
It was a similar situation with the Hoyer tanker drivers last summer. This was at the height of the inflation and there was a certain hyseria which culminated in everyone trying to get a better pay rise than was announced for the last group.
BBC NEWS | Business | Tanker driver strike to go ahead
That's how we got in to the ridiculous situation of a HGV licence (one week course) being more valuable than a 3 year degree and 4 years flying training... I think, in the big scheme, this is good planning. Still annoying it's left to the last week, though.
Operation Fresco
It was a similar situation with the Hoyer tanker drivers last summer. This was at the height of the inflation and there was a certain hyseria which culminated in everyone trying to get a better pay rise than was announced for the last group.
BBC NEWS | Business | Tanker driver strike to go ahead
That's how we got in to the ridiculous situation of a HGV licence (one week course) being more valuable than a 3 year degree and 4 years flying training... I think, in the big scheme, this is good planning. Still annoying it's left to the last week, though.
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On the plus side, we've all learnt a lot about how inflation is measured over the last 14 pages: if money=power and knowledge IS power then we've all had a sort of pay rise thanks to Prune!! 
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I just stumbled across an interesting article on the RAF Families Federation website.
It goes on to say:
It will be very interesting to see exactly what was submitted to the PSPC.
13 March 2009 : Why Has the 2009 Pay Award Not Been Announced Yet?
Compared to other years the Annual Pay award for the Armed Services is much delayed this year. Some cynics would say that the Government is waiting for the Retail Price Index (RPI) to fall in order for a minimal pay award to appear generous. In response a member of the Pay Policy Staff says:
"I am not surprised at with these questions. Many others are asking something similar and, by the nature of this business, it is inevitable that delay to the normal timetable will be regarded suspiciously. I will do what I can to answer within the constraints I face.
"You will understand, I hope, why I can say little about the specifics of this year’s award at the present time. Until an announcement is made nothing is certain. What I can say is that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body (AFPRB) process is complete less the announcement, and has been for a little while.
"A decision was made by the Government to delay so as to coordinate the AFPRB announcement with other related news. There is no intention not to deliver this award wef 1 April 09 but I cannot tell you exactly when an announcement will be made but it is expected very soon. I have seen no evidence of manoeuvrings along the 'RPI falling line' suggested.
"Conspiracy theories inevitably will abound but I can assure you that all Service evidence has been carefully received and considered and AFPRB is as well informed regarding the realities of what’s being asked of our service personnel and their families as they could be. The Board met this past year 3,500 service personnel and spouses in several hundred formal discussion groups during 25 visits in GB, NI, Belgium, Cyprus, Iraq and Afghanistan and saw the worst and best of our dining facilities and accommodation in each location.
"I am confident that their recommendations will reflect all they learned. You may also be encouraged to note that over the last 10 years HMG has accepted every AFPRB recommendation. I hope that this year’s news might not be as bad as some fear though, as said before, there are no guarantees until an announcement is made."
Compared to other years the Annual Pay award for the Armed Services is much delayed this year. Some cynics would say that the Government is waiting for the Retail Price Index (RPI) to fall in order for a minimal pay award to appear generous. In response a member of the Pay Policy Staff says:
"I am not surprised at with these questions. Many others are asking something similar and, by the nature of this business, it is inevitable that delay to the normal timetable will be regarded suspiciously. I will do what I can to answer within the constraints I face.
"You will understand, I hope, why I can say little about the specifics of this year’s award at the present time. Until an announcement is made nothing is certain. What I can say is that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body (AFPRB) process is complete less the announcement, and has been for a little while.
"A decision was made by the Government to delay so as to coordinate the AFPRB announcement with other related news. There is no intention not to deliver this award wef 1 April 09 but I cannot tell you exactly when an announcement will be made but it is expected very soon. I have seen no evidence of manoeuvrings along the 'RPI falling line' suggested.
"Conspiracy theories inevitably will abound but I can assure you that all Service evidence has been carefully received and considered and AFPRB is as well informed regarding the realities of what’s being asked of our service personnel and their families as they could be. The Board met this past year 3,500 service personnel and spouses in several hundred formal discussion groups during 25 visits in GB, NI, Belgium, Cyprus, Iraq and Afghanistan and saw the worst and best of our dining facilities and accommodation in each location.
"I am confident that their recommendations will reflect all they learned. You may also be encouraged to note that over the last 10 years HMG has accepted every AFPRB recommendation. I hope that this year’s news might not be as bad as some fear though, as said before, there are no guarantees until an announcement is made."
Background
The AFPRB acts independently to the MOD, the Tresury (HMT) or any other Governmentt Department to develop its recommendations on basic pay (base pay + X Factor), some allowances and charges (food & accommodation). Its report is submitted to the Prime Minister through the Cabinet and also to Secretary of State for Defence.
The Public Sector Pay Committee (PSPC) then reviews the report and, all others like it, from the various Pay Review Bodies. PSPC is chaired by Cabinet and attended by HMT and, for the AFPRB report, MOD officials.
The PSPC chairman then writes to Ministers from relevant Departments to seek their approval or comment, a summary of which is then submitted to the Prime Minister. It is he who decides whether to accept the AFPRB’s recommendations in full or in part and whether to deliver immediately or to stage all or part of the submitted package. He decides what % pay rise we get!
The AFPRB acts independently to the MOD, the Tresury (HMT) or any other Governmentt Department to develop its recommendations on basic pay (base pay + X Factor), some allowances and charges (food & accommodation). Its report is submitted to the Prime Minister through the Cabinet and also to Secretary of State for Defence.
The Public Sector Pay Committee (PSPC) then reviews the report and, all others like it, from the various Pay Review Bodies. PSPC is chaired by Cabinet and attended by HMT and, for the AFPRB report, MOD officials.
The PSPC chairman then writes to Ministers from relevant Departments to seek their approval or comment, a summary of which is then submitted to the Prime Minister. It is he who decides whether to accept the AFPRB’s recommendations in full or in part and whether to deliver immediately or to stage all or part of the submitted package. He decides what % pay rise we get!
Can someone please refresh my memory?
I think it goes like this:
The AFPRB compile a report and it is submitted to Treasury/Govt for approval.
The Treasury/Govt study the report and then award the pay rise (usually the recommendation).
Is that (basically) how it goes? Forget that just read LFFCs post
If the Boards recommendations are ignored, do we still see their report? or is it edited to suit before publication?
Just curious really.
I think it goes like this:
The AFPRB compile a report and it is submitted to Treasury/Govt for approval.
The Treasury/Govt study the report and then award the pay rise (usually the recommendation).
Is that (basically) how it goes? Forget that just read LFFCs post
If the Boards recommendations are ignored, do we still see their report? or is it edited to suit before publication?
Just curious really.
Last edited by insty66; 23rd Mar 2009 at 17:50. Reason: to acknowledge the above post
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If the Boards recommendations are ignored, do we still see their report? or is it edited to suit before publication?
I'm sure the AFPRB Report will be published, but if it was edited prior to publication, then I would imagine that the Chairman's position would be untenable.
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So,
this interesting 'guidance' and 'explaination' are provided on the RAF Families web site, but nothing is passed through the 'normal' chain of command. What's more, this was posted on 13 Mar, and already the respondent comments on general unease and potential ill feeling, indicating that this must be understood and known higher up.
I fear a storm is brewing. Make way for the 'new world', my guess is that after 1 Apr 09, nothing much will be the same again. ALL bets are off, and worse still, I bet military pensions are already being considered for a good old raping!
I may be old, and cynical, but I cannot be the only person to be putting a few clues together........ can I?
Advo
this interesting 'guidance' and 'explaination' are provided on the RAF Families web site, but nothing is passed through the 'normal' chain of command. What's more, this was posted on 13 Mar, and already the respondent comments on general unease and potential ill feeling, indicating that this must be understood and known higher up.
I fear a storm is brewing. Make way for the 'new world', my guess is that after 1 Apr 09, nothing much will be the same again. ALL bets are off, and worse still, I bet military pensions are already being considered for a good old raping!
I may be old, and cynical, but I cannot be the only person to be putting a few clues together........ can I?
Advo
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Big freeze starts to hit public sector pay
Looks like news is beginning to trickle out.
The Times - 24 Mar 09 - Big freeze starts to hit public sector pay
The Times - 24 Mar 09 - Big freeze starts to hit public sector pay