F-18 down in San Diego
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Condolences to the families involved in this tragedy...
But could this be a case where the pilot made his decision to leave the jet thinking it was not going to cause damage/casualties..and Newton's law kicked in...??
IIRC a Hunter developed problems many years ago, pilot pointed jet out to sea,... used Martin Baker (?) to good efffect and as he was thinking about his Caterpillar tie, the jet did a gentle 180 and went into Tintagel village...
only casualty, some bloke cleaning windows was knocked from ladder as jet went between 2 houses...
But could this be a case where the pilot made his decision to leave the jet thinking it was not going to cause damage/casualties..and Newton's law kicked in...??
IIRC a Hunter developed problems many years ago, pilot pointed jet out to sea,... used Martin Baker (?) to good efffect and as he was thinking about his Caterpillar tie, the jet did a gentle 180 and went into Tintagel village...
only casualty, some bloke cleaning windows was knocked from ladder as jet went between 2 houses...
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my goodness
I have just looked up some photos of the 1979 Hunter crash, the pictures are stunning. What on earth are the chances of any aircraft going right between two houses so very close together, and causing virtually no damage!.
I only feel happy to comment, as there was no loss of life. In cases where there was any fatality, I don't even like to look at any pics at all.
Best thought's and wishes to the man in the San Diego crash on his tragic loss, and added applause for his concern and thoughts over the aircraft's pilot at such a traumatic time.
I only feel happy to comment, as there was no loss of life. In cases where there was any fatality, I don't even like to look at any pics at all.
Best thought's and wishes to the man in the San Diego crash on his tragic loss, and added applause for his concern and thoughts over the aircraft's pilot at such a traumatic time.
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Unoccupied Vulcans - and schools.
Crash of Vulcan XM610 over County Durham
As the coastline slipped under the Vulcan's nose Alcock took one last look around then he too pulled his seat pan firing handle.
With no one now on board XM610 enters a downward spiral, instead of crashing into the sea XM610 impacts between the main village and the school at Wingate completely destroying itself and causing a large crater. Luckily no one was hurt on the ground, but if it had crashed 100 yards either side a heavy loss of life would have taken place.
As the coastline slipped under the Vulcan's nose Alcock took one last look around then he too pulled his seat pan firing handle.
With no one now on board XM610 enters a downward spiral, instead of crashing into the sea XM610 impacts between the main village and the school at Wingate completely destroying itself and causing a large crater. Luckily no one was hurt on the ground, but if it had crashed 100 yards either side a heavy loss of life would have taken place.
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There were 4 casulaties on the ground in San Diego. A grandmother, mother and two children. The grandmother had just arrived from Korea to help the mother with the new-born babe.
The mother was a close friend of my wife. The devestated father, who was at work at the time, was shown on Korean TV news last night and specifically stated he considered the pilot blameless.
The mother was a close friend of my wife. The devestated father, who was at work at the time, was shown on Korean TV news last night and specifically stated he considered the pilot blameless.
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I have seen the photo's of that hunter in tintagel, I worked with a man who was on the crash and smash team out of Abingdon? IIRC at the time.
Best piece of parking I ever saw.
Best piece of parking I ever saw.
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" You smile reading newspaper stories about a pilot in a disabled plane that maneuvered to miss a schoolyard before he hit the ground.
That's crap.
That's crap.
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Sorry to disagree with Chuck Yeager.
Some time ago, I went into serious trouble with a small plane with the subsequent decision to land ASAP before I fall out of the sky. Fortunately, a runway was within reach. So I landed without permission (couldn't care less), 7700 and cars on the (big enough) runway with a civil aircraft on a military restricted area - and happy to be alive and in one peace back on mother earth.
But I still had time to think about my descent path and avoided to overfly some residential area - just in case I wouldn't make it.
True story. Yes, you can.
Some time ago, I went into serious trouble with a small plane with the subsequent decision to land ASAP before I fall out of the sky. Fortunately, a runway was within reach. So I landed without permission (couldn't care less), 7700 and cars on the (big enough) runway with a civil aircraft on a military restricted area - and happy to be alive and in one peace back on mother earth.
But I still had time to think about my descent path and avoided to overfly some residential area - just in case I wouldn't make it.
True story. Yes, you can.
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Modelman don't take any notice of AIDU, he just likes stirring things. He has no grounds to criticise the fact that you have only a PPL* as, to quote his own words elsewhere, he doesn't have even that. 
* There is nothing "ONLY" about a PPL
On a more pleasant note, what a wonderfully generous, sympathetic person the gentleman who has lost his entire family appears to be. What a dreadful time he must be suffering too.
Do be serious. Why would I want to pass myself off as a Pilot? It's obvious where I work and I make no secret about it. AIDU.
On a more pleasant note, what a wonderfully generous, sympathetic person the gentleman who has lost his entire family appears to be. What a dreadful time he must be suffering too.
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Cornish said: I have seen the photo's of that hunter in tintagel, I worked with a man who was on the crash and smash team out of Abingdon? IIRC at the time. Best piece of parking I ever saw.
Tintagel Plane Crash Story
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Thanks DX Wombat ( and a.n.other)
Thanks for the support,I did also receive a PM of support and advice to add AIDU to my ignore list (never used that facility before).
I too was struck by the comments from the victims' father/husband for his concern for the pilot's wellbeing.
My original post was borne out of my absolute contempt for poor/shoddy/lazy/inaccurate and sensationalist reportage (on any subject-not just aviation).
Time to move on and wish the pilot a speedy recovery and the victims relatives strength to rebuild their lives.
MM
I too was struck by the comments from the victims' father/husband for his concern for the pilot's wellbeing.
My original post was borne out of my absolute contempt for poor/shoddy/lazy/inaccurate and sensationalist reportage (on any subject-not just aviation).
Time to move on and wish the pilot a speedy recovery and the victims relatives strength to rebuild their lives.
MM
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Brickhistory,
please re-read. I said I disagree with Chuck Yeager's quotation that it would be impossible to think about others when you have to manage an emergency. I didn't say it's always possible to avoid Newton's law.
please re-read. I said I disagree with Chuck Yeager's quotation that it would be impossible to think about others when you have to manage an emergency. I didn't say it's always possible to avoid Newton's law.
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Yeager might not have thought about anyone else but himself when the sh_t hit the fan, but there are plenty of documented cases of military pilots who have... done exactly the opposite... selfless acts like these do actually happen on occasion. (-- Ewan Whosearmy)
So you agree (..selfless acts "on occasion") -- that there's some truth to Yeager's viewpoint ?
Does your view (plenty of selfless pilots) or Yeager's view (mostly survival-motivated pilots) predominate in the real world of such military piloting emergencies ?
Care to cite the specifics of one or two of these 'documented cases', similar to this F-18 crash circumstance, where the pilot deliberately maneuvered away from a school/hospital/etc. seconds before impact/ejection ?
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Pilot declined closer alternate:
Military jet had chance to land before fatal crash
By MICHAEL R. BLOOD and ELLIOT SPAGAT
Associated Press Writers
Mar 3, 4:31 PM EST
SAN DIEGO (AP) -- The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four people was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.
Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.
Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose that the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.
That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.
Officials in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday that 13 Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors in connection with the crash. Service officials told members of Congress that four Marine Corps officers have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at Coronado.
It's difficult to determine the pilot's precise location from the tapes, but he reported his position as 20 miles south of Coronado, flying at 13,000 feet with 20 to 30 minutes of fuel remaining, less than a minute before he was asked by controllers if he wanted to land at Coronado, according to the recordings.
When air controllers told him a runway was available at Coronado, the pilot said, "I'm actually going to try to take it to Miramar if possible."
According to the tapes, air controllers gave the pilot instructions that would allow for a landing at Coronado or Miramar. At one point he was given a heading to follow but indicated he was having trouble with the jet.
"I'm trying, sir, but single engine," the pilot said.
The pilot said he wanted to land at Miramar and told controllers to have emergency crews ready on the ground.
The pilot told the air controllers at one point he was within sight of Miramar, but about two minutes later, according to the tapes, an unidentified pilot reported seeing smoke on the ground near Miramar.
The pilot ejected safely.
Four members of a Korean family were killed in their home - Young Mi Yoon, 36; her daughters Grace, 15 months, and Rachel, 2 months; and her mother Suk Im Kim, 60. Kim was visiting from South Korea to help her daughter move across town and adjust to the arrival of her second child.
Military officials say the jet suffered a rare double engine failure, and Marine generals initially defended the choice to send the Hornet to Miramar.
The disclosures in the tapes raise the possibility that the crash might have been averted. Since the crash, a lingering question has been why the pilot didn't attempt a landing at Coronado over open water.
Military officials have said that after the first engine faltered, Miramar was a straight shot and that going to North Island would have required more engine thrust.
But the tapes indicate that the ailing jet apparently was closer to Coronado when the pilot reported a possible problem with the second engine.
Miramar is ringed by freeways and bordered on its western end by residential areas that include a high school.
A Marine Corps spokesman, Maj. Manuel Delarosa, in December declined to disclose the plane's location when the engine trouble began or whether the aircraft was capable of reaching Coronado, citing the ongoing investigation.
In private briefings with members of Congress, military officials have reportedly said there were factors that made landing at North Island unfeasible, but those issues have not been disclosed publicly.
Miramar dates to 1917, when the site was used to train troops headed to World War I. As late as the 1950s, it was still miles beyond San Diego's urban fringe, but homes have since been built right up to the edge of the base, where the Navy established its "Top Gun" fighter training school in 1969.
By MICHAEL R. BLOOD and ELLIOT SPAGAT
Associated Press Writers
Mar 3, 4:31 PM EST
SAN DIEGO (AP) -- The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four people was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.
Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.
Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose that the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.
That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.
Officials in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday that 13 Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors in connection with the crash. Service officials told members of Congress that four Marine Corps officers have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at Coronado.
It's difficult to determine the pilot's precise location from the tapes, but he reported his position as 20 miles south of Coronado, flying at 13,000 feet with 20 to 30 minutes of fuel remaining, less than a minute before he was asked by controllers if he wanted to land at Coronado, according to the recordings.
When air controllers told him a runway was available at Coronado, the pilot said, "I'm actually going to try to take it to Miramar if possible."
According to the tapes, air controllers gave the pilot instructions that would allow for a landing at Coronado or Miramar. At one point he was given a heading to follow but indicated he was having trouble with the jet.
"I'm trying, sir, but single engine," the pilot said.
The pilot said he wanted to land at Miramar and told controllers to have emergency crews ready on the ground.
The pilot told the air controllers at one point he was within sight of Miramar, but about two minutes later, according to the tapes, an unidentified pilot reported seeing smoke on the ground near Miramar.
The pilot ejected safely.
Four members of a Korean family were killed in their home - Young Mi Yoon, 36; her daughters Grace, 15 months, and Rachel, 2 months; and her mother Suk Im Kim, 60. Kim was visiting from South Korea to help her daughter move across town and adjust to the arrival of her second child.
Military officials say the jet suffered a rare double engine failure, and Marine generals initially defended the choice to send the Hornet to Miramar.
The disclosures in the tapes raise the possibility that the crash might have been averted. Since the crash, a lingering question has been why the pilot didn't attempt a landing at Coronado over open water.
Military officials have said that after the first engine faltered, Miramar was a straight shot and that going to North Island would have required more engine thrust.
But the tapes indicate that the ailing jet apparently was closer to Coronado when the pilot reported a possible problem with the second engine.
Miramar is ringed by freeways and bordered on its western end by residential areas that include a high school.
A Marine Corps spokesman, Maj. Manuel Delarosa, in December declined to disclose the plane's location when the engine trouble began or whether the aircraft was capable of reaching Coronado, citing the ongoing investigation.
In private briefings with members of Congress, military officials have reportedly said there were factors that made landing at North Island unfeasible, but those issues have not been disclosed publicly.
Miramar dates to 1917, when the site was used to train troops headed to World War I. As late as the 1950s, it was still miles beyond San Diego's urban fringe, but homes have since been built right up to the edge of the base, where the Navy established its "Top Gun" fighter training school in 1969.
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.... Also:
"... though mechanics had identified a fuel-transfer glitch in {the mishap} jet sometime ago, the Marine Corps flew 146 more sorties with it before the Dec. 8 crash.
The Marine Corps now requires aircraft to be grounded when they have a fuel-transfer problem...
Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration made the recordings public in response to Freedom of Information Act requests by The San Diego Union-Tribune and other media organizations. It twice delayed the release because of pressure from the Marine Corps, which asked for additional time to complete its investigation into the crash.
The FAA recordings show {the mishap pilot} understood his predicament shortly after leaving the flight deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln around 11:30 a.m...
{the mishap pilot} manually turned off his first engine because of the fuel-transfer trouble.
...He tried unsuccessfully to establish contact with the aircraft carrier...
An FAA air traffic controller at Miramar offered to direct {the mishap F-18}... toward Runway 36 at North Island. That approach would have kept the aircraft over water until it touched down.
Visibility was good under mostly cloudy skies at the time, weather records show.
I'm actually going to try to make it to Miramar if possible, {the mishap pilot} replied as he flew at an altitude of about 13,000 feet nearly 20 miles south of North Island.
Two minutes later, the controller directed {the mishap pilot} on a path that would let him fly by North Island on his way toward Miramar.
The recordings don't reveal whether {the mishap pilot} acted on his own in bypassing North Island or if he was acting under orders from his commanders.
But he told the controller, I'm coordinating with people on the ground to figure out what we're doing..."
_________
Safety procedures not followed before fatal jet crash, Marines say
"... though mechanics had identified a fuel-transfer glitch in {the mishap} jet sometime ago, the Marine Corps flew 146 more sorties with it before the Dec. 8 crash.
The Marine Corps now requires aircraft to be grounded when they have a fuel-transfer problem...
Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration made the recordings public in response to Freedom of Information Act requests by The San Diego Union-Tribune and other media organizations. It twice delayed the release because of pressure from the Marine Corps, which asked for additional time to complete its investigation into the crash.
The FAA recordings show {the mishap pilot} understood his predicament shortly after leaving the flight deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln around 11:30 a.m...
{the mishap pilot} manually turned off his first engine because of the fuel-transfer trouble.
...He tried unsuccessfully to establish contact with the aircraft carrier...
An FAA air traffic controller at Miramar offered to direct {the mishap F-18}... toward Runway 36 at North Island. That approach would have kept the aircraft over water until it touched down.
Visibility was good under mostly cloudy skies at the time, weather records show.
I'm actually going to try to make it to Miramar if possible, {the mishap pilot} replied as he flew at an altitude of about 13,000 feet nearly 20 miles south of North Island.
Two minutes later, the controller directed {the mishap pilot} on a path that would let him fly by North Island on his way toward Miramar.
The recordings don't reveal whether {the mishap pilot} acted on his own in bypassing North Island or if he was acting under orders from his commanders.
But he told the controller, I'm coordinating with people on the ground to figure out what we're doing..."
_________
Safety procedures not followed before fatal jet crash, Marines say
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...more:
" (CNN) -- Deferred maintenance, faulty decisions by controllers and the pilot of a fighter jet contributed to an aircraft's fatal crash into a San Diego, California, neighborhood in December, the Marine Corps announced Tuesday...
The commander of the fighter squadron involved in the crash, its top maintenance officer and two others have been relieved of duty as a result of the crash investigation. The pilot has been grounded pending a further review..."
Nine other Marines have received other disciplinary action..."
____________
Marines sack 4 over deadly California plane crash - CNN.com
" (CNN) -- Deferred maintenance, faulty decisions by controllers and the pilot of a fighter jet contributed to an aircraft's fatal crash into a San Diego, California, neighborhood in December, the Marine Corps announced Tuesday...
The commander of the fighter squadron involved in the crash, its top maintenance officer and two others have been relieved of duty as a result of the crash investigation. The pilot has been grounded pending a further review..."
Nine other Marines have received other disciplinary action..."
____________
Marines sack 4 over deadly California plane crash - CNN.com